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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNzTPSA6XrMQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I can appreciate your wanting to be Devil's Advocate, but..........
https://gaming4snake.files.wordpress...-baby-face.jpg
Felix Savon, 33 years old...."amateur"
Yes. He's also Cuban. What's your point?
Glad you asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Did Felix Savon have a job outside of "amateur" boxing?
Did Felix Savon have to do anything other than train for boxing to provide food, clothing, and shelter for himself and his family?
If the answer is "no" to both of those things then how could Savon be classified as an "amateur"?
But I DO so love your dismissive attitude about it, I have just missed that more than you can ever know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGlad you asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Did Felix Savon have a job outside of "amateur" boxing?
Did Felix Savon have to do anything other than train for boxing to provide food, clothing, and shelter for himself and his family?
If the answer is "no" to both of those things then how could Savon be classified as an "amateur"?
But I DO so love your dismissive attitude about it, I have just missed that more than you can ever know.
So you've grasped at a proverbial straw a couple of light-years away just to justify your asinine point, and I'm being dismissive? Let me guess... you don't have a law degree, I'm assuming. No way you'd survive in that field with the flimsy defenses you're putting up lately.
Let's set aside the particular and unique case that is Cuba, for a second, and consider the idea of pro boxers in the Olympics. You've seen and read all the countless reasons why this is a terrible idea. You admittedly are just playing devil's advocate. So why the soap box? Is it just me that brings out the rebel in you?
I'm flattered.
Apparently I've grasped a straw significant enough for you to decide to NOT answer the questions I asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Yes, you were being dismissive and you've apparently decided to follow up dismissive with more of the same. I guess you are thinking that being dismissive would help make your own case, but I'm afraid debates don't work that way you see I've made my points and now you have to counter those points just saying "Those are your points? Pfft :D " is NOT an argument, scoffing at the opposing viewpoint is not an effective debate strategy....but then again had you actually wanted a debate then you would have answered the questions I posed, or at least attempted to answer them. Titofan, it's alright, you don't have to answer them if you don't want to and you don't have to come up with counterpoints to my argument.....that is unless you would want to debate the issue.
Go ahead, put Cuba aside....what are the arguments AGAINST pros in the Olympics? They boil down to 2 easily refutable arguments 1. "It's too dangerous" and 2. "We don't want to see an 18 year old vs a 40 year old" ...well 1. "it's too dangerous" is a moot point because not only are there more safety measures in amateur boxing (headgear, bigger gloves), but IF pros were allowed to make the Olympic teams then guess who would NOT make the Olympic boxing teams? :smilie_whisper: probably the inexperienced youngsters would be left off the teams....also if an 18 year old is talented enough to make the Olympic Boxing team for any nation then who is to say that boxer cannot win a Gold medal vs professionals? 2. "We don't want to see an 18 year old vs a 40 year old"....do we say that about the pros? Mike Tyson wasn't old when he was Undefeated Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the world, he was fighting much older much more experienced competition....WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY STOP HIM?!?!?! HIS HEALTH WAS AT RISK!!! HE WAS JUST A CHILD!!!! Also Gold medal winners have recently been in their mid-late 20's guys like Audley Harrison 29 years old when he won Gold.
You're flattered? Yeah be flattered all you like you've made no arguments for your position whatsoever I've given just a limited amount of effort here and I could even go so far as to drop the old....
Why don't you want to see the most talented boxers in the Olympics? I thought the Olympics was there to showcase the very best every sport has to offer....well if professional basketball players are playing Olympic basketball, pro hockey players playing Olympic hockey, pro soccer players playing Olympic soccer, then why no pro boxers? Why hold boxing back?
Boxing has been stagnant for some time, MMA has taken off and the time has come for boxing to do SOMETHING different if it's pros in the Olympics so be it, there's only 1 Gold medal, there's no avoiding opponents, there's no long drawn out purse negotiations or lawsuits, the actual true to life amateurs still have the Golden Gloves and other strictly amateur tournaments.
But if you're cool with missing some more potential fights like Ali-Stevenson or Tyson-Savon I mean that is A-OK fine with me....just you know, actually provide an argument rather than just being dismissive because that's how DEBATES work, good talk
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The "other sports" argument, huh? So you're one of those people who cheered when, embarrassed by having the rest of the world catching up with the U.S. in Olympic basketball.... the U.S. persuaded the Olympic committee to let the Jordans, the Magics, the Birds, invade the Olympic team, forming that famous "Dream Team"..... and turning the Olympic basketball competition into a farce. If you feel that was a good change to the Olympics, then we have nothing more to discuss. The premise under which the Olympics existed for many many years before the Dream Team became violated, and now it's looked at as the norm. I liked it back when college basketball players were out there fighting and scratching for their gold medal.
Yeah, about that....remember 1980 "Do You Believe In Miracles" ? That was an amateur US hockey team vs Russian professionals who somehow retained amateur status....soooo yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The "other sports" argument, huh? So you're one of those people who cheered when, embarrassed by having the rest of the world catching up with the U.S. in Olympic basketball.... the U.S. persuaded the Olympic committee to let the Jordans, the Magics, the Birds, invade the Olympic team, forming that famous "Dream Team"..... and turning the Olympic basketball competition into a farce. If you feel that was a good change to the Olympics, then we have nothing more to discuss. The premise under which the Olympics existed for many many years before the Dream Team became violated, and now it's looked at as the norm. I liked it back when college basketball players were out there fighting and scratching for their gold medal.
And Usain Bolt is a professional and in soccer??? Professionals!
The Olympics should be about the best athletes period
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah, about that....remember 1980 "Do You Believe In Miracles" ? That was an amateur US hockey team vs Russian professionals who somehow retained amateur status....soooo yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The "other sports" argument, huh? So you're one of those people who cheered when, embarrassed by having the rest of the world catching up with the U.S. in Olympic basketball.... the U.S. persuaded the Olympic committee to let the Jordans, the Magics, the Birds, invade the Olympic team, forming that famous "Dream Team"..... and turning the Olympic basketball competition into a farce. If you feel that was a good change to the Olympics, then we have nothing more to discuss. The premise under which the Olympics existed for many many years before the Dream Team became violated, and now it's looked at as the norm. I liked it back when college basketball players were out there fighting and scratching for their gold medal.
And Usain Bolt is a professional and in soccer??? Professionals!
The Olympics should be about the best athletes period
That 1980 Miracle..... one of the most memorable events in Olympic sports history to this date. :)
Mentioning Usain Bolt is entering a blurry area, inasmuch as track and field athletes in other countries get paid, which technically makes them professionals. But frankly... most of them have day jobs to go along with their stipends as athletes.
And your opinion on what Olympics should be is well noted... but not a unanimous one by any means. It blurs that line that used to separate the amateurs from the pros. Actually... erases the line is more like it. I don't see what was wrong with the original concept... it worked well for over 100 years.
Professional sports and the money it makes is a relatively new thing, the Olympics will either adapt or fade in relevanceQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah, about that....remember 1980 "Do You Believe In Miracles" ? That was an amateur US hockey team vs Russian professionals who somehow retained amateur status....soooo yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The "other sports" argument, huh? So you're one of those people who cheered when, embarrassed by having the rest of the world catching up with the U.S. in Olympic basketball.... the U.S. persuaded the Olympic committee to let the Jordans, the Magics, the Birds, invade the Olympic team, forming that famous "Dream Team"..... and turning the Olympic basketball competition into a farce. If you feel that was a good change to the Olympics, then we have nothing more to discuss. The premise under which the Olympics existed for many many years before the Dream Team became violated, and now it's looked at as the norm. I liked it back when college basketball players were out there fighting and scratching for their gold medal.
And Usain Bolt is a professional and in soccer??? Professionals!
The Olympics should be about the best athletes period
That 1980 Miracle..... one of the most memorable events in Olympic sports history to this date. :)
Mentioning Usain Bolt is entering a blurry area, inasmuch as track and field athletes in other countries get paid, which technically makes them professionals. But frankly... most of them have day jobs to go along with their stipends as athletes.
And your opinion on what Olympics should be is well noted... but not a unanimous one by any means. It blurs that line that used to separate the amateurs from the pros. Actually... erases the line is more like it. I don't see what was wrong with the original concept... it worked well for over 100 years.
So why not have pro fights with pro refs in one division of Olympics and also continue with amateur fights as is.Then if an amateur wants to move up into that world he can try out for it and change up along with his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOften? Try ALWAYS, and USSR very same and China very same (with subtle changes recently).Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
As for no one is getting hurt...basketball is a non-contact sport, try something a bit more physical...are amateurs allowed in/competitive in Olympic Hockey? Are people being hurt there? Are amateur boxers guaranteed to be safe without adding professionals in?
I think the main issue everyone is missing is that there would be more eyes on Olympic boxing if professionals were involved and when you're attempting to grow a sport this could help the product.....it would definitely help out the United States' boxing program, imagine it, amateurs getting to learn from professionals, professional trainers, professional sponsors....I fail to see the downside other than the "we don't want a 16 year old fighting his first fight against a 32 year old current title holder" which I'm sorry is a bogus claim, amateur boxing wouldn't allow that fight to take place.
Pros are going to go all out like it is the last round in long fight, all except they are fresh and going for a finish.
It sure will be interesting for all of us to watch this, but it is going to be more dangerous for some and not the other, experience of deep wars against none is going to be a real factor.
So, no amateurs allowed. End of?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah, about that....remember 1980 "Do You Believe In Miracles" ? That was an amateur US hockey team vs Russian professionals who somehow retained amateur status....soooo yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The "other sports" argument, huh? So you're one of those people who cheered when, embarrassed by having the rest of the world catching up with the U.S. in Olympic basketball.... the U.S. persuaded the Olympic committee to let the Jordans, the Magics, the Birds, invade the Olympic team, forming that famous "Dream Team"..... and turning the Olympic basketball competition into a farce. If you feel that was a good change to the Olympics, then we have nothing more to discuss. The premise under which the Olympics existed for many many years before the Dream Team became violated, and now it's looked at as the norm. I liked it back when college basketball players were out there fighting and scratching for their gold medal.
And Usain Bolt is a professional and in soccer??? Professionals!
The Olympics should be about the best athletes period
Change the whole system to pro in the boxing then, sack all the refs bring in all the pro ones and officials and bring in the real thing with the longer rounds and full fights.
That's a point I wish I had made :P
:vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
God damn it, Andre, I expect you to be better than this.
Did I say "no amateurs"?
Did I say "only professionals"?
Did I say "change the whole system"?
(all those should be answered "No") Then why act like that's what I'm arguing for?
If professional boxers wish to fight in the Olympics then they are going to (like everyone else does) abide by the Olympic rules. This will mean yes, "amateur style" fights with "amateur style" scoring, and "amateur style" refs, and "amateur style" rules.
I said "the Olympics should have the best athletes"....and yet people STILL want to disagree with me. Why? Why shouldn't the Olympics have the best athletes participating? Explain yourselves. If an amateur wins Gold over pros, then all the more power to them! If a pro wins, then whoopty do they aren't getting big time money going to the Olympics now are they? They are participating in a sport for the glory of their respective nation and not for personal financial gain, though I am certain grudge matches could be made and PPV's can be made from rematches from the Olympic fights.
Erislandy Savon nephew of Felix Savon....he's a rival of Anthony Joshua and the only time we'd see them fight again is if Anthony gets int he Olympics again or if Savon defects and that is very unlikely
Didn't realize the alphabet boys said they will remove rankings and suspend fighters who go ??? Ranking I get but how does a sanctioning body suspend a fighter.
Hassan Ndam and Amnat Ruenroeng are the pnly pros I know who are trying to qualify. Ndam at 81kg opposed to his pro weight of 75kg. Hed be in with Joe Ward and TBE Julio La Cruz.
Pro loses to amateur in Olympic Qualifying
http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/pro-...rnament-344876
Sooooo what did we learn?
A 28-15 pro is not what people were argueing against. Hes not a full time boxer and would work another job too.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Glen Johnson was still working in construction when he fought and beat Roy Jones Jr.....there aren't a whole gaggle of people who ONLY box for a living. And again look at guys like the Cubans Guillermo Rigondieux....he was 2-0 when he won his first title, you think he couldn't beat up any professional in the amateurs? Think Stevenson or Savon would have had trouble with professionals as amateurs?Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkeyjoeA 28-15 pro is not what people were argueing against. Hes not a full time boxer and would work another job too.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The difference in status isn't always the key to who will win or lose. Guys who are amateurs with experience aren't going to be pushovers for every single professional out there.
Amateur boxer knocks out unbeaten pro in the first round, three more pros lose in all | Boxing News | Fightnews
Amateur knocks out undefeated pro?
Tell me I was wrong now
Those pro's ain't top-class.
Hassan N’Dam, the biggest name I have seen entered, bashed up a 21-year-old American in the final qualifying round.
Well alright then just move the goalposts to cater to your argument I guessQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
That's not moving goalposts, just pointing out the best pro that tried to qualify pissed it. So the idea of Pacquiao or Wlad going was a joke.
"pissed it"....he beat Jonathan Esquivel by 1 round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Who is the professional here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZEF2A4uP5s
Hmmm???
Amateur boxing seems to dominated by a lot of white fighters, Kazaks, East Europeans and stuff. Cubans are still maybe, overall the strongest nation, but they are not as dominant as they were once were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrK_HVGOnUo
If they are the strongest nation why are they not as dominant as they once we're?Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
It's that damn white man to blame again isn't it, good god I hate them honkey cracker mofos
The Cuba Domadores. Cuba are as dominant as ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
As for pros in the olympics both Ndam and Ruenrong lost their respective finals. They will be big prices to win gold. As would any pro bar a few of the heavies and the elites. Canelo would have no chance of medalling in the olympics unless he got gifts the whole way through and hes a top 10 P4P fighter apparently. All this fuss was over nothing
Theres 10 Male weight classes in the olympics. Here are the favs for Gold
49kg Paddy Barnes (Irish)
52kg Veitia (Cuban)
56kg Conlon, Ramirez and Stevenson (Irish, Cuban and US)
60 lg Alvarez and Selimov (Cuban and Azerbaijani)
64kg Toledo and Dunaytsev (Cuban and Russian)
69kg Yeliussenov (Kazachkstan)
75kg Lopez (Cuban)
81kg La Cruz (Cuban)
91kg Savon and Tishcenko (Cuban and Russian)
91+kg Joyce and Yoka (English and French)
6 white fights from 16. Clearly a sport dominated by whites
Like I said at the start of this, people were getting a bit carried away with the Pro's .
I wish Khan had gone because he would've stood no chance!
When you have to hit weight every day for 2-3 weeks solid, nearly every decent pro wouldn't be able to do that and they would have to fight 2 weights above. This would be an absolute leveller.
Canelo, for example would probably have to fight at LHW and Chavez Jr. At HW!!
Ruenroeng fights at 52kg as a pro. Hes in the 60kg weight in the olympics. I dont fancy his chances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
Well...well...well....how did N'Dam do? Piss that did he?
Soooo....everyone learn of the pros losing to the amateurs? And did we learn anything from that? Are we going to doubt El Kabong again????