Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

marciano is lucky he ran away before liston got him

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Originally Posted by TIC

marciano is lucky he ran away before liston got him

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Floyd Patterson was before Liston and Marciano would have knocked out Patterson. Patterson was a great boxer but had an awful chin. Even if Marciano fought for a little bit longer, I doubt he would have fought long enough to meet Liston in the ring.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I think most of it comes down to his personality, or at least the way he presents it. Of course he lacks skills, but if he were an entirely different character and was honest about that, most people who bash him would probably cheer him on. Suppose for a second he had a Glen Johnson kind of attitude/way of speaking about himself. The fact is his flaws don't make him bad to watch. It's going to be must see viewing any time he fights a top opponent because you just never know if/when he'll land that eraser. For my money he also has gotten a lot better at delivering it. You look at his last few KOs or the knockdowns against Fury, and as much as he was shown up for long stretches of the fights, when he does land there is nothing wild or amateurish about it. Bringing up Oliver McCall, Mercer, Tua etc are extreme examples and of course would be real bad match ups for him, but surely it's to his credit you have to dig up guys that he wouldn't have every chance of flattening? Look how people still talk about Earnie Shavers, who only had a right hand, wasn't any more sound technically than Wilder and to boot couldn't really take a punch.

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My point with the iron chins is - they weren't the elite of their time yet I struggle to see Wilder beating them, however, bizarrely I give him more chance against Lennox, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe (*wait up, wait up). Wilder's power isn't up for debate, imo, he would have been dangerous in any era, however, ironing out Ortiz is quite simply not enough to be in a "greatest ever puncher" conversation (*for what it's worth I think the elite guys would've ironed him out 9 and half out of 10).

There's about a dozen current heavyweights who are serious challenges for Wilder - Uysk, Povetkin, Whyte, Parker, Ruiz, Joshua, even Rivas, Chisora, Pulev, Kownacki, Hunter - maybe he blows them all away, great, he should currently start favourite over all, but just add some funking substance to the hype.

Who anointed Ortiz superior to that lot? Who did he ever beat? (i'm not saying Ortiz is any worst than that lot either... apart from Uysk, of course, who is P4P level)

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No argument really, I'm more responding to the people who post as if he's tofu and couldn't possibly beat certain guys(who aren't mount olympus for a skull piece McCall). He has a chance of sparking right out damn near everyone who ever boxed and it's fun to watch. I'd like to see him fight any of those guys as well, or Ortiz do so for that matter. Usyk is also the only one Id be confident putting a dime on to win I think.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by TIC

marciano is lucky he ran away before liston got him

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Floyd Patterson was before Liston and Marciano would have knocked out Patterson. Patterson was a great boxer but had an awful chin. Even if Marciano fought for a little bit longer, I doubt he would have fought long enough to meet Liston in the ring.

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marciano retired at 31. in this very thread someone is saying "i still think 37 is not so old at all for a heavyweight no matter what era we are talkin about". liston harmed his career with his battles against the law that kept him out of the ring for two years. he returned in 1958 and by 1960 was ranked number one contender. marciano had been retired almost five years by then. guy was happy to beat up old men. liston would have beat him bad in 1956 or 57 if ever given the chance. and you are right, marciano would have knocked out patterson

Marciano would have dogged the piss out of Liston. Broke ribs from underneath. How was Liston going to land his jab with Marciano leaning back and to his right? Marciano would slip that jab 4 out of 5 times. Then step in inside Liston reach, and nail his left ring cage with Suzie Q.

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

Marciano would have dogged the piss out of Liston. Broke ribs from underneath. How was Liston going to land his jab with Marciano leaning back and to his right? Marciano would slip that jab 4 out of 5 times. Then step in inside Liston reach, and nail his left ring cage with Suzie Q.

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liston would go through marciano like a laxative

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Originally Posted by TIC

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

Marciano would have dogged the piss out of Liston. Broke ribs from underneath. How was Liston going to land his jab with Marciano leaning back and to his right? Marciano would slip that jab 4 out of 5 times. Then step in inside Liston reach, and nail his left ring cage with Suzie Q.

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liston would go through marciano like a laxative

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Which punch do you fancy?

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

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Originally Posted by TIC

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

Marciano would have dogged the piss out of Liston. Broke ribs from underneath. How was Liston going to land his jab with Marciano leaning back and to his right? Marciano would slip that jab 4 out of 5 times. Then step in inside Liston reach, and nail his left ring cage with Suzie Q.

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liston would go through marciano like a laxative

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Which punch do you fancy?

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The Liston jab would have sliced Rocky even at his peak.

Rocky was interested in fighting Johansson when he knocked out Patterson but he tried to train and felt he did not have it in him to win the title.

If he could not return to beat Ignemar then he would certainly not have beaten Floyd Patterson.

In 1956 he would have smashed Patterson
In 1959, he was too old (35)

“Sources” have it at 2500 PPV sales. Sure that’s stupid but people are running with it

We should have a thread just titled “sources” where we bring the stupid lies “sources” are spreading

Y do Swanson get those so much flak too?

just the thought of liston coming up the ranks was enough to convince rocco to get out and stay gone

Marciano was a great great fighter. But he was getting old when Liston started to make his mark in the division, and he had a chronically bad back that could have 'gone' in the ring at any time.

In my opinion, Liston was the first 'modern' heavyweight. Big, strong and tough, he sort of redifined heavyweight boxing.

Before him, Rocky, Floyd and Ingemar were all guys you imagine in black and white and who you would definitely call 'old timers'. Sonny was the first guy who we can all truly imagine competing in the present day.

When Rocky was old and Sonny was young, I think Liston would have too much for Marciano.

Marciano retired 4 months before his 33rd birthday.

Frazier, same swarming, crowding style, was that same age in Manila. And was DONE after that fight for SURE.

for his gruelling, exhausting style, Marciano retired just about on time.

a 14-1 liston was enough to having rocco running scared into retirement forever

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Originally Posted by TIC

a 14-1 liston was enough to having rocco running scared into retirement forever

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Well, let's see:

Sonny Liston was 24 years old on the day that Rocky Marciano retired in April 1956 at the age of 32.

rocco didn't even know liston was going to be forced out until 1958 when he decided to retire, he just tucked tail and skulked into hiding. i still think 32 is not so old at all for a heavyweight no matter what era we are talkin about

What do you mean Rocco didn't know about Sonny Liston? Sonny Liston went to jail so many times that kept interrupting his career. Then he became a heroin addict and died in a hotel in Las Vegas. How the hell was Rocky Marciano supposed to know if this guy was active or not? when Marciano got back from South America on his cruise with his wife it was April 1956 and he was only four months away from his 33rd birthday.

Sonny Liston was born either 1930 or 1932.

Marciano was born in 1923.

Sonny Liston was six foot one and he weighed about 220 pounds

Marciano was five foot ten and he weighed about 184 pounds

Are you calling that a fair fight?

i would have feared for rocco's health had he dared to share the ring with liston

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Originally Posted by TIC

i would have feared for rocco's health had he dared to share the ring with liston

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Just like any 35 pound discrepancy

bigger isn't always better. liston was just better than rocco

Mehh, competition-wise I'd say they fought pretty even. Kid Matthews, Rex Layne and Roland Lastarza were just as tough as Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen and Floyd Patterson.

rocco would put up as little resistance and surrender to liston as easily as the french did with germany in 1940

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Originally Posted by TIC

rocco would put up as little resistance and surrender to liston as easily as the french did with germany in 1940

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Nahh, he don't surrending, he will fight to those death!

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

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Originally Posted by TIC

rocco would put up as little resistance and surrender to liston as easily as the french did with germany in 1940

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Nahh, he don't surrending, he will fight to those death!

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Like the French did?

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

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Originally Posted by TIC

rocco would put up as little resistance and surrender to liston as easily as the french did with germany in 1940

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Nahh, he don't surrending, he will fight to those death!

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Like the French did?

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And you can able to continue to say that's thing about we about us French if it making those people feel better it is true that Adolf Hitler was posing in front of Eiffel tower and we French people did not do very much to stop him.