Re: Rafael Espinoza-Robeisy Ramirez II ~ Oscar Valdez-Emmanuel Navarrete II ESPN 11/7
Fair enough. An Orbital bone is nothing to play with. So it wasn't a quit by Robeisy.
When Kell Brook done his orbital in the Triple G fight (Or it could have been the Spence fightt), apparently they had to remove his eyeball via his mouth in order to repair the broken bone and not only did he not know if he'd ever be able to fight again but he'd been informed that he might not even be able to see out of it again.
It all depends on where Robeisy's orbital bone is fractured, how bad the fracture, how many places was it fractured. but I remember Bob Sapp's career was over after he got his orbital broken by Cro Cop.
Re: Rafael Espinoza-Robeisy Ramirez II ~ Oscar Valdez-Emmanuel Navarrete II ESPN 11/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Denilson3.0
Fair enough. An Orbital bone is nothing to play with. So it wasn't a quit by Robeisy.
When Kell Brook done his orbital in the Triple G fight (Or it could have been the Spence fightt), apparently they had to remove his eyeball via his mouth in order to repair the broken bone and not only did he not know if he'd ever be able to fight again but he'd been informed that he might not even be able to see out of it again.
It all depends on where Robeisy's orbital bone is fractured, how bad the fracture, how many places was it fractured. but I remember Bob Sapp's career was over after he got his orbital broken by Cro Cop.
Again... I'm not a doctor nor a boxer. But sizing up orbital bone fractures with other serious injuries sustained by fighters in the ring (huge cuts, broken nose, hands, etc.) it seems the orbital fracture would pose the most serious risk. Hell... it's the eye socket. Not something to screw around with.
Athletes play through injuries in other sports, as well. U.S. football is notorious for having guys go out there at less than 100% due to injuries. You can't get those guys off the field!
But back to Robeisy. Unless he had sustained that injury prior to that last punch, maybe in a previous round... that one punch by Espinoza honestly did not seem like an orbital bone busting punch for me. Not saying the elbow theory is right or anything like that. But damn... that last punch didn't seem like it would bust anything... much less an orbital bone. Again... I'm coming at this strictly as a fan. Not a doctor or anything of the sort. Maybe a previous punch did it... I don't know. Again, what is sad is that this may well truncate what seemed to be a very promising career. The kid is damn good.
Re: Rafael Espinoza-Robeisy Ramirez II ~ Oscar Valdez-Emmanuel Navarrete II ESPN 11/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Denilson3.0
Fair enough. An Orbital bone is nothing to play with. So it wasn't a quit by Robeisy.
When Kell Brook done his orbital in the Triple G fight (Or it could have been the Spence fightt), apparently they had to remove his eyeball via his mouth in order to repair the broken bone and not only did he not know if he'd ever be able to fight again but he'd been informed that he might not even be able to see out of it again.
It all depends on where Robeisy's orbital bone is fractured, how bad the fracture, how many places was it fractured. but I remember Bob Sapp's career was over after he got his orbital broken by Cro Cop.
Again... I'm not a doctor nor a boxer. But sizing up orbital bone fractures with other serious injuries sustained by fighters in the ring (huge cuts, broken nose, hands, etc.) it seems the orbital fracture would pose the most serious risk. Hell... it's the eye socket. Not something to screw around with.
Athletes play through injuries in other sports, as well. U.S. football is notorious for having guys go out there at less than 100% due to injuries. You can't get those guys off the field!
But back to Robeisy. Unless he had sustained that injury prior to that last punch, maybe in a previous round... that one punch by Espinoza honestly did not seem like an orbital bone busting punch for me. Not saying the elbow theory is right or anything like that. But damn... that last punch didn't seem like it would bust anything... much less an orbital bone. Again... I'm coming at this strictly as a fan. Not a doctor or anything of the sort. Maybe a previous punch did it... I don't know. Again, what is sad is that this may well truncate what seemed to be a very promising career. The kid is damn good.
If a fighter quits over an injury. I won't call them a quitter in most cases, but if I remember someone else who fought through it and succeeded, then I'm not going to rank them in the same category.
Inoue also suffered a broken orbital bone in Round 2 against Donaire and he fought for 10 rounds like a Samurai and won by UD.
https://photos.fife.usercontent.goog...-gm?authuser=1Margarito, fought many rounds against Pac (a fight he was gettting beaten up in) with a caved in orbital.
https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/i...00&h=1200&q=75
Some fighters have 0 punk in them.
It's not so much that I think Inoue or Margaritio are more of a "man" than Robiesy it's more that they have the mindset that they have because they're trying to WIN the fight. They simply won't give up trying to win.
In boxing you have WARRIORS and WORRIERS
Robiesy is more of a worrier
When someone just quits because it 'aint happening for them or they are getting frustrated like Nicolas Walters and Rigondeau against Loma or even (Dare I say) Duran against Sugar Ray then that's a true quit. They were just getting schooled and though "nah, f*ck it" nor do I have problem when they are on their way to defeat and when they feel their health is at risk. EG Kell Brook against Spence or Triple G. He couldn't see, maybe his sight was on the line. No criticism
But this was a fight Robiesy was "in" Epinoza was coming on strong but Robiesy was ahead on points at the time of the stoppage. As I say I would not say Robiesy quit. But he did made a choice. I'll say that. And his choice was not to carry on.
He's in the suffering business and that's the reason I only agree with you only 60/40 on this one.
I'm sure Top Rank is more than disappointed after investing so much into Robiesy and the promotion of this fight in particular. Not sure what you can do with Robiesy now, he's a far better fighter thn his 14-3 record would suggest, but might be too dangerous for other featherweight champs to risk their title against. Let's not forget this is guy who beat Shakur to win his 2nd gold in the Rio 2016 Olympics
Re: Rafael Espinoza-Robeisy Ramirez II ~ Oscar Valdez-Emmanuel Navarrete II ESPN 11/7
Finally caught a decent watch and off the top I think Espinoza was doing much better than I first gathered watching in gaps. That left hand! His left was always working, from short to long jab to turning it over into hooks and from underneath. Gave Ramirez 1st and maybe 2nd and that was it until surreal start and end in the end round. He was controlling his movement and gradually Ramirez was just giving off these odd vibes and almost fighting distracted and out of ideas. By and including the 3rd he was literally turning around looking for the ref to complain and getting caught flush in the mug for it. I can't say there was anything flagrant but you can see Espinoza is one of those gangly physical punchers up close and tbf he was directly warned as early as the 1st for turning the punch over and close with an elbow. But nothing afterwards. Ramirez was getting clipped clean in 5th and just looked adrift like he mentally hit a wall. The weird thing was his corner knew he was damaged in some regard, focused on the eye yet they and Ramirez saw fit to come out for the 6th. After the first so so left that was a wrap. I'm never too big on questioning a fighter's heart on mass but can also not imagine having the sensation of my face literally breaking and remaining calm cool and collected.
Re: Rafael Espinoza-Robeisy Ramirez II ~ Oscar Valdez-Emmanuel Navarrete II ESPN 11/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Finally caught a decent watch and off the top I think Espinoza was doing much better than I first gathered watching in gaps. That left hand! His left was always working, from short to long jab to turning it over into hooks and from underneath. Gave Ramirez 1st and maybe 2nd and that was it until surreal start and end in the end round. He was controlling his movement and gradually Ramirez was just giving off these odd vibes and almost fighting distracted and out of ideas. By and including the 3rd he was literally turning around looking for the ref to complain and getting caught flush in the mug for it. I can't say there was anything flagrant but you can see Espinoza is one of those gangly physical punchers up close and tbf he was directly warned as early as the 1st for turning the punch over and close with an elbow. But nothing afterwards. Ramirez was getting clipped clean in 5th and just looked adrift like he mentally hit a wall. The weird thing was his corner knew he was damaged in some regard, focused on the eye yet they and Ramirez saw fit to come out for the 6th. After the first so so left that was a wrap. I'm never too big on questioning a fighter's heart on mass but can also not imagine having the sensation of my face literally breaking and remaining calm cool and collected.
Some good points have been raised by you and Denilson. Yeah, the ending was kind of calm. I know if that punch had broken MY orbital bone, a few choice words would've immediately come out, plus I would very likely clutch at the injury as an immediate gut reaction. But just the words "orbital bone fracture" sound scary as hell. It's literally the socket that holds your eyeball place. I figure I'd rather have my jaw broken in two places than having to deal with a broken eye socket.
But again... good points. Espinoza WAS coming on, and it was beginning to look like a very long night for Ramirez as long as it lasted. I give Ramirez mad props because it's not easy giving away those huge height and reach advantages against someone who just comes in punching nonstop. Yet I thought Ramirez acquitted himself very well at first, going to the body consistently.
Now he's been reduced to damaged goods.
Re: Rafael Espinoza-Robeisy Ramirez II ~ Oscar Valdez-Emmanuel Navarrete II ESPN 11/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Finally caught a decent watch and off the top I think Espinoza was doing much better than I first gathered watching in gaps. That left hand! His left was always working, from short to long jab to turning it over into hooks and from underneath. Gave Ramirez 1st and maybe 2nd and that was it until surreal start and end in the end round. He was controlling his movement and gradually Ramirez was just giving off these odd vibes and almost fighting distracted and out of ideas. By and including the 3rd he was literally turning around looking for the ref to complain and getting caught flush in the mug for it. I can't say there was anything flagrant but you can see Espinoza is one of those gangly physical punchers up close and tbf he was directly warned as early as the 1st for turning the punch over and close with an elbow. But nothing afterwards. Ramirez was getting clipped clean in 5th and just looked adrift like he mentally hit a wall. The weird thing was his corner knew he was damaged in some regard, focused on the eye yet they and Ramirez saw fit to come out for the 6th. After the first so so left that was a wrap. I'm never too big on questioning a fighter's heart on mass but can also not imagine having the sensation of my face literally breaking and remaining calm cool and collected.
Some good points have been raised by you and Denilson. Yeah, the ending was kind of calm. I know if that punch had broken MY orbital bone, a few choice words would've immediately come out, plus I would very likely clutch at the injury as an immediate gut reaction. But just the words "orbital bone fracture" sound scary as hell. It's literally the socket that holds your eyeball place. I figure I'd rather have my jaw broken in two places than having to deal with a broken eye socket.
But again... good points. Espinoza WAS coming on, and it was beginning to look like a very long night for Ramirez as long as it lasted. I give Ramirez mad props because it's not easy giving away those huge height and reach advantages against someone who just comes in punching nonstop. Yet I thought Ramirez acquitted himself very well at first, going to the body consistently.
Now he's been reduced to damaged goods.
Yep. That's the thing, and again we're all really just armchair analyst and can't see what's inside a dude under heavy fire. But I think Ramirez had his panic upstairs and to me it started before the 5th. I'd say it was a legit bad injury but also one that messes with your head bad. Ramirez came off like he was low key freaking out. I remember the first time I got bit in the face by a big dog. I could 'feel' pain but I couldn't see it. Is my lip split, are my teeth gone, nose torn ;D:p. The mind hits 0-60 freak out in an instant. Now an orbital and a bite are not on the same planet clearly, but all I wanted to do was find a mirror to see it. Then I calmed. Tremendously worse for a fighter as you know you have a glaring target once damaged, and that last left Espinoza touched him with was all the indicator he needed that it was about to get very ugly.
