lewis?????

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I just think everbody pays to much attention to how Tyson was post 96 (even post 89) whose to say that Lewis or anybody else would've been able to stand up to Tyson circa 1989. It would not be the same scenario as it was in 2002.

If Tyson retired after the Spinks fight would anybody really seriusoly be claiming that he only ruled by fear and if you stood up to him you could beat him - I don't think they would Tyson was shot from 89 onwards, but in his prime I only see Ali beating him

If he retired after beating Spinks everybody on this site would have him top 5 of all time Heavyweights, so whuy don't they now, surely you judge a fighter in his prime?

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It's a bit unfair to ask people to dismiss the last 15 years of Tyson's career though. Its hard not to remember him by his defeats.

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I dunno, nobody considers the last 11 years of Holmes career when placing him as an atg :-\

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Originally Posted by armin

Lewis was freaking great, avenged the 2 losses he had, and as far as I know wasn't a half maniac outside of the ring. Only thing I wish lewis had done was give vitali a rematch, but other than that great champ and I like him better than tyson personaly.

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Armin, you hit it on the head on all accounts exactly, and especially the Klitschko rematch. :)

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Originally Posted by X

Awww, I was goading that fool !!

:(

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"A lie told often enough becomes the truth (sic)" Punctuation always follows the end of a sentence, particularly when quotes are used; I believe Dr. Herman Goebbels said that, Nicht wahr? Und, was ist der unterschied zwischen Saddo und Frau X? ;D

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I just think everbody pays to much attention to how Tyson was post 96 (even post 89) whose to say that Lewis or anybody else would've been able to stand up to Tyson circa 1989. It would not be the same scenario as it was in 2002.

If Tyson retired after the Spinks fight would anybody really seriusoly be claiming that he only ruled by fear and if you stood up to him you could beat him - I don't think they would Tyson was shot from 89 onwards, but in his prime I only see Ali beating him

If he retired after beating Spinks everybody on this site would have him top 5 of all time Heavyweights, so whuy don't they now, surely you judge a fighter in his prime?

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It's a bit unfair to ask people to dismiss the last 15 years of Tyson's career though. Its hard not to remember him by his defeats.

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I dunno, nobody considers the last 11 years of Holmes career when placing him as an atg :-\

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Well I dunno maybe that has somethinmg to do with age and i guess you have to start assessing opponents but in Tyson's case it seems a short time to judge him by. Remember he started as a HUGE favourite against Holyfield.

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Originally Posted by Saddo

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Big_Deuce

proof? ??? ???

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It is not even something that is disputed it is fact to anybody that knows anything that Tyson paid Lewis to not have to fight him!!

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the ironic thing is he paid him so he could fight the old version of Holyear ((which everyone including me said was shot to bits)) and he lost anyway hahahaha ;D

did i kick myself after that fight because i though Tyson was gonna give Holyear a one sidded beating in a few rounds so didn't buy the PPV

was well pissed off when i found out the result and had to wait a week to watch it >:mad

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that was classic...Tyson got what he deserves

AdamGB, im nuthuggin because i want someone who makes a comment in this forum to back it up????... what a shame :(... Because, im not disagreeing with anyone about tyson paying lennox not to fight, i just never seen/heard that. BUT, id like proof...Make a statement, and if someone hasnt heard it before, prove it. whats so hard about that? Dont cry to me and tell me i should know it, ok thats a tidbit of info that i never heard before. So please enlighten me. and if you cant. say it. Im not going to go research blank statements all day.
Proof is in the puddin, so call bill cosby, maybe hes got the youtube link.

Again, i just want to make the comment, im not a boxing analyst, im not a sports writer, im an honest, and true fan of the sport. I love it, ive loved it since i can remember. But, im not going to take anyones "word for it". no matter how many posts or CC's you have.(although some of you have a Sh!t load, so you guys must be saying something right lmao) I like this forum, im impressed with alot of the knowledge people have here. But dont penalize me for asking for proof, if you make or support a comment, you should be proud enough to stand behind it with proof.

enough with the rant..

i dont think anyone can deny that talent that mike tyson had, and he did dominate the HWD for a short while, true the opposition wasnt the hardest, and the same can be said for lennox lewis. He was clearly the most talented of his era, but these are both weak, unstable eras that contained no excellent heavyweights (well none in their prime) to test them. If lennox lewis is so great, someone name me 1 fighter that he beat, that could be placed on the top 10 heavies ever. (please dont even mention tyson or holyfield, fighters past their prime dont count! im not sayin tyson is a top 10 heavy ever, but someone might).

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Originally Posted by Raeder

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth (sic)" Punctuation always follows the end of a sentence, particularly when quotes are used; I believe Dr. Herman Goebbels said that, Nicht wahr? Und, was ist der unterschied zwischen Saddo und Frau X? ;D

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:dontknow:

:dummespost:

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Raeder

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth (sic)" Punctuation always follows the end of a sentence, particularly when quotes are used; I believe Dr. Herman Goebbels said that, Nicht wahr? Und, was ist der unterschied zwischen Saddo und Frau X? ;D

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:dontknow:

:dummespost:

I was brought up to respect the peoples of all nations, unlike those English prissy miscreants. The best of 'em immigrated to the Colonies prior to 1776! There is a myth about the English "country gentleman" chasing a poor little fox. Actually, he is the one that demonstrates the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable. ;D

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I agree - I am not a big fan of the English either.

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Originally Posted by X

I agree - I am not a big fan of the English either.

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TY; I am an Irish-American. 8)

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Originally Posted by Big_Deuce

i dont think anyone can deny that talent that mike tyson had, and he did dominate the HWD for a short while, true the opposition wasnt the hardest, and the same can be said for lennox lewis. He was clearly the most talented of his era, but these are both weak, unstable eras that contained no excellent heavyweights (well none in their prime) to test them. If lennox lewis is so great, someone name me 1 fighter that he beat, that could be placed on the top 10 heavies ever. (please dont even mention tyson or holyfield, fighters past their prime dont count! im not sayin tyson is a top 10 heavy ever, but someone might).

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Can you name a better Heavyweight era than the one Lewis dominated other than the early seventies ??

What you aren't remembering is that the heavyweight division throughout history has tended to have 1 maybe 2 dominant fighters in any era, I don't think Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano Mie Tyson or Larry Holmes(to name a few that most people would have in their top 10) fought anything like the calibre of opponent that Lewis did - in fact I am damn sure they didn't.

And with regards to beating all time top 10 greats in their prime, did any of the guys I mentioned do that either. Ai beat Frazier and Foreman, Foreman beat Frazier, but apart from that I can't think of many top 15 fighters that fought in their prime

good point( :goodpost: :coolclick:), and i was hoping someone would finaly ask it

Do i think there were harder Eras out there? Hell friggen ya...
Look at the resumes, and tell me that lennox resume was harder? i disagree.
Also, about the top ten comment i made. you answered it for me. NO, there is no one, on lennox lewis record who could ever be considered top 10 heavy of all time... but marciano has em, ali has em, foreman has em, holyfield has em.

marciano beat
Joe luis, jersey joe, kayo'd archie moore in the 9th round, (ALI TKO'd not KO'd in the 4th round)

Joe Louis beat\
jersey joe, buddy baer, billy conn, max baer, jim braddock

Larry Holmes beat
Ken norton, gerry cooney,, gave ray mercer his first loss UD (another note Ray mercers only loss that that wasnt KO or uD, was by who? lennox lewis MD, some can debate lewis didnt win that fight, at another time we can lol).

ALI beat
Archie moore, Sonny liston,floyd patterson, buster mathis, Ken norton, Joe frazier, george foreman, ernie shavers (agree should/shouldnt be mentiond, another arguement for another time)

George Foreman beat
Ken norton, joe frazier (first loss,and by ko),gerry cooney, and michael moorer (gave him his first loss, and by k0, when he was 45)

Holyfield beat
Michael dokes, busta douglas, foreman, larry holmes, riddick bowe, ray mercer (again "another note Ray mercers only loss that that wasnt KO or uD, was by who? lennox lewis), mike tyson, michael moorer, john ruiz, rahman, chris bird)

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Originally Posted by Big_Deuce

good point( :goodpost: :coolclick:), and i was hoping someone would finaly ask it

Do i think there were harder Eras out there? Hell friggen ya...
Look at the resumes, and tell me that lennox resume was harder? i disagree.
Also, about the top ten comment i made. you answered it for me. NO, there is no one, on lennox lewis record who could ever be considered top 10 heavy of all time... but marciano has em, ali has em, foreman has em, holyfield has em.

marciano beat
Joe luis, jersey joe, kayo'd archie moore in the 9th round, (ALI TKO'd not KO'd in the 4th round)

Joe Louis beat\
jersey joe, buddy baer, billy conn, max baer, jim braddock

Larry Holmes beat
Ken norton, gerry cooney,, gave ray mercer his first loss UD (another note Ray mercers only loss that that wasnt KO or uD, was by who? lennox lewis MD, some can debate lewis didnt win that fight, at another time we can lol).

ALI beat
Archie moore, Sonny liston,floyd patterson, buster mathis, Ken norton, Joe frazier, george foreman, ernie shavers (agree should/shouldnt be mentiond, another arguement for another time)

George Foreman beat
Ken norton, joe frazier (first loss,and by ko),gerry cooney, and michael moorer (gave him his first loss, and by k0, when he was 45)

Holyfield beat
Michael dokes, busta douglas, foreman, larry holmes, riddick bowe, ray mercer (again "another note Ray mercers only loss that that wasnt KO or uD, was by who? lennox lewis), mike tyson, michael moorer, john ruiz, rahman, chris bird)

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OMG where do I start..

Ok

Marciano - you said that Lewis didn't beat a top 10 Heavy in their prime - well as for Marciano, I don't have Jersey Joe as an all time top 10 and when he fought Marciano he was 38 and way past his prime. Ancient Archie was exactly that he was 39 years old and also a Light Heavyweight. Louis was way over the hill!!

Ali - I already agreed and said that his era i.e the early seventies was the greatest era

Foreman - Same as Ali - I already agreed

Holyfield - Yes he fought in the 2nd best era ever, i.e the same era as Lewis. Great credit for Beating Bowe, but he did also lose to him twice and although he is the greatest Crusier of all time his record at heavyweight is floored. Nearly knocked out by journeyman Bert Cooper , fought Grandads Homes & Foreman lost to glass jaw Moorer - no one on that list si a top 10 of all time - Michale Dokes - oh please - and you do know he lost to Rahman Byrd and Ruiz right ???

Holmes

Cooney and Norton all time top 10?? Was Cooney better than Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Golota, Bruno Rudock Tyson & Holyfield??

Louis - yes an all time top 10, but none of hisopponents were, Billy Conn was alight heavy and was way ahead after 12 rounds, Walcott had already lost 12 and was way past his best, Buddy Baer isn't even on the top 10 Radar anf Jim Braddock gimme a break

You haven't given many other fighter that fought another top of all time heavyweight in their prime - you have just given me Ali and Foreman who I already acknowledged, and have contradicted your point about Holyfield and Tyson being over the hill when Lewis fought them, by basing your Marciano argument on Louis Moore and Walcott and your Holyfield argument on Holmes and Foreman

alrighty, where do i start. how about the fact that you skimmed my post, and didnt fully read it.

The fighters i listed below were examples of harder resumes/eras. NOT men who beat other men who can be considered best HW of all time. Even though some of those names fall under both categories. my apologies for not making it clearer to you. ::**

YES, holyfield and lewis fought in the same decade, however i added holyfield because he had a harder opposition than lewis.( "harder resume") Holyfield and lewis fought about 3 of the same opponents

Lewis- kayod rahman, and got kayod by rahman, lewis kayod tyson (wash up tyson i might add),and struggled (some believe lost to mercer).
Holyfield- pointed out rahman, slapped tyson around twice, and a convincing win over mercer (who lewis could barely point out)

OH yea, and i know you pointed out 3 heavies that beat men, that could be considered top 10, but. i Said that in the previous post here

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Also, about the top ten comment i made. you answered it for me.

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Also, can you stop answering my questions with questions...
the question still remains, WHO has lennox lewis beatin, that could be considered a top 10 best HW ever? (note: my marciano comment was not for the debate of comment above^^^) so i did not contradict my statement at all. thanks

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Originally Posted by Big_Deuce

alrighty, where do i start. how about the fact that you skimmed my post, and didnt fully read it.

The fighters i listed below were examples of harder resumes/eras. NOT men who beat other men who can be considered best HW of all time. Even though some of those names fall under both categories. my apologies for not making it clearer to you. ::**

YES, holyfield and lewis fought in the same decade, however i added holyfield because he had a harder opposition than lewis.( "harder resume") Holyfield and lewis fought about 3 of the same opponents

Lewis- kayod rahman, and got kayod by rahman, lewis kayod tyson (wash up tyson i might add),and struggled (some believe lost to mercer).
Holyfield- pointed out rahman, slapped tyson around twice, and a convincing win over mercer (who lewis could barely point out)

OH yea, and i know you pointed out 3 heavies that beat men, that could be considered top 10, but. i Said that in the previous post here

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Also, about the top ten comment i made. you answered it for me.

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Also, can you stop answering my questions with questions...
the question still remains, WHO has lennox lewis beatin, that could be considered a top 10 best HW ever? (note: my marciano comment was not for the debate of comment above^^^) so i did not contradict my statement at all. thanks

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Why would I want to tell you who LL beat that was an all time top 10 in their prime, I have never said he did!! What I said was nor did any other heavyweights apart from Foreman and Ali, and I stand by that. I also stand by Ruddock, Bowe, Holyfield Tyson, Morrison, Tucker, Mercer, Bruno, etc being the 2nd best era in heavyweight history, as as you said in your post that part of the argument was not about whether the fighter fought all of those people within their era. just how good the era was

CC for the discussion mate - I enjoy a good debate :D