Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??
It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.
Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?
Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.
Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0
Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights
Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of
1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws
That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%
Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of
539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws
For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%
Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?
Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter
Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter
For their last 10 fights?
Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter
Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters
IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers
81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio
Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense
P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.
:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.
American fighters make for more legitimate records?
better tell the Klitschkos that!
But i see your point..
How many non Russian fighters has Valuev fought?
Let's see...40 out of 46 fighters are NON russians and the russians were all in the very early fights..
PS I didn't mean to say ROCKY fought ONLY Americans.
I meant MOSTLY americans.. But certainly Valuev has fought a far more diverse range of nationalities than Rocky due to the times
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
I just finished reading the entire thread and everytime I read your posts landmine950 a part of me died slowly...... :(
A member tries to produce an informative and concise post that takes a bit of time to do. It may be controversial or unpopular or even undefendable. Thats what makes this forum and these discussions interesting IMO. This is the best reply you can come up with? 3 posts in a row slagging me? Your a moderator here? You need to take a few lessons from the class act Wacko3205
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??
It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.
Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?
Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.
Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0
Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights
Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of
1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws
That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%
Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of
539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws
For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%
Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?
Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter
Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter
For their last 10 fights?
Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter
Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters
IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers
81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio
Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense
P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.
:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.
American fighters make for more legitimate records?
better tell the Klitschkos that!
But i see your point..
How many non Russian fighters has Valuev fought?
Let's see...40 out of 46 fighters are NON russians and the russians were all in the very early fights..
PS I didn't mean to say ROCKY fought
ONLY Americans.
I meant MOSTLY americans.. But certainly Valuev has fought a far more diverse range of nationalities than Rocky due to the times
to answer your question rocky has fought much better opp than valuev enuff said 8)
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
Boxing is not about numbers.
Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?
It's not his fault that there are 4 belts. There are 4 times as many belts but there are 40 times as many fighters and the majority of them are 40 times better than the average "club" fighting semi-pro/ditchdiggers of
40's and 50's.
And he's not just a top ten contender anymore He's a belt holder and top ranked fighter by most every organization. Ring mag has him 4th.
BUT the reason people WORLDWIDE ARE talking about him is because his record is creeping up on a legendary number set by an Icon of the
sport. That's why I started this thread. Maybe helps us self proclaimed "fans" brush up on our facts before the general public start spouting opinions at us! LOL!
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
Boxing is not about numbers.
Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?
It's not his fault that there are 4 belts. There are 4 times as many belts but there are 40 times as many fighters and the majority of them are 40 times better than the average "club" fighting semi-pro/ditchdiggers of
40's and 50's.
And he's not just a top ten contender anymore He's a belt holder and top ranked fighter by most every organization. Ring mag has him 4th.
BUT the reason people WORLDWIDE ARE talking about him is because his record is creeping up on a legendary number set by an Icon of the
sport. That's why I started this thread. Maybe helps us self proclaimed "fans" brush up on our facts before the general public start spouting opinions at us! LOL!
Archie Moore up against valuev opponents Larry Donald
Ezzard Charles John Ruiz
Jersey Joe Walcott Monte Barrett
Joe Louis Jameel McCline
sorry mate just no comparison 8)
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
I just finished reading the entire thread and everytime I read your posts landmine950 a part of me died slowly...... :(
A member tries to produce an informative and concise post that takes a bit of time to do. It may be controversial or unpopular or even undefendable. Thats what makes this forum and these discussions interesting IMO. This is the best reply you can come up with? 3 posts in a row slagging me? Your a moderator here? You need to take a few lessons from the class act Wacko3205
Ha!! WackOff3205 and the word class don't belong together..... I should know that, trust me ;)
To be honest how do you expect ANYONE to take you serious when 3 times a week theres a new 'Valuev' thread on here by you?
Now if you did one every know and then guess more people would be serious on it.
And I agree, your threads are controversial and undefendable. But in that case we would have the entire 'Boxing Talk' forum filled with them.
SalTheButcher would fill it with threads on how Zab Judahs the best, I would have it filled with JCC is the GREATEST EVER, El Gamo would fill it with Antonio Margarito threads endless pages..... Though it makes for great controversy thats not necessairly what we are all going for here. Thats also the reason why sometimes when posters keep making repetitive threads on the same subject and on the same things over and over threads are removed.
You put up a thread thats up for debate and I disagreed with it. If you didn't like what I replied you could have ignored it. Thats what I do when I don't like something I read sometimes.....
My comment was making a point if you didn't get what it meant, it's that to compare Marcianos record that of Valuevs at the moment is just stretching it as far as you possibly could.
And since you asked it's very simple. Marciano was THEE Wolrd Heavyweight Champ. Not the WBA Heavyweight Champ.
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
Boxing is not about numbers.
Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?
It's not his fault that there are 4 belts. There are 4 times as many belts but there are 40 times as many fighters and the majority of them are 40 times better than the average "club" fighting semi-pro/ditchdiggers of
40's and 50's.
And he's not just a top ten contender anymore He's a belt holder and top ranked fighter by most every organization. Ring mag has him 4th.
BUT the reason people WORLDWIDE ARE talking about him is because his record is creeping up on a legendary number set by an Icon of the
sport. That's why I started this thread. Maybe helps us self proclaimed "fans" brush up on our facts before the general public start spouting opinions at us! LOL!
I agree it's not his fault - he is doing the best he can (and seems to behave honourably outside the ring too). I am not criticising the guy, but the fact he only holds a portion of the belt does count against him in an objective argument about his achievements compared to Marcianos.
Incidentally, I think there are much less fighters around than in the 40s and 50s, not ten times more (but I stand to be corrected if anyone has the numbers?)
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Howz this grab ya???
Archie Moore 185-23-11 84.47%
Ezzard Charles 89-25-1 77.39%
Jersey Joe Walcott 51-18-2 71.83%
Joe Louis 69-3-0 95.83%
_________
average of the 4 fighters 82.38%
Larry Donald 42-4-3 85.71%
John Ruiz 41-7-1 83.67%
Monte Barrett 31-5-0 86.11%
Jameel McCline 38-7-3 79.16%
________
average of the 4 fighters 83.62%
SO....the record of the "greats" against their peers, is worse than Valuev's modern opponents against theirs.
Take Joe Lewis out and Rocky's opponents Win % drops to 77.9%!
Kind of interesting HUH!?
To Cut Me Mick
I don't think that my post are repetative ,or boring. Obviously people are going to start posts on their own personal favorite topics, and maybe just add to post started by others.
The Giant certainly isn't a fringe topic,and will soon dominate boxing news and media coverage world wide. Deserving or not the heavies get the glory and he's as heavy as they come!
Maybe check my last 4 posts
1) Seperating the Klitschkos
2) The truth about Ali
3) Ali-One tough Irishman
and this one......nearing 2000 views!
Only the Wackos drunken round by rounds get more reads!
Even If you don't think I contribute to this forum, others seem to think differently.
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
But look who Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis lost to!......there is hardly an average fighter that beat them whereas Donald, Ruiz, Barrett, and McCline have been beat by some straight up BUMS.
Landmine, honestly this thread is going to make me have a stroke....Valuev is a fucking bum and he hasn't fought anyone good yet AND he hasn't fought Donald and Ruiz in America which is why he is still undefeated.
The Klitschko's, Sam Peter, Calvin brock, Hasim Rahman, Alexander Povetkin, Audley Harrison, Oliver McCall...even Shannon Briggs could beat Valuev but no one will ever get a shot.
I hope and pray everyday that Chagaev breaks Nicolay's ugly fucking face
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
But look who Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis lost to!......there is hardly an average fighter that beat them whereas Donald, Ruiz, Barrett, and McCline have been beat by some straight up BUMS.
Landmine, honestly this thread is going to make me have a stroke....Valuev is a F****** bum and he hasn't fought anyone good yet AND he hasn't fought Donald and Ruiz in America which is why he is still undefeated.
The Klitschko's, Sam Peter, Calvin brock, Hasim Rahman, Alexander Povetkin, Audley Harrison, Oliver McCall...even Shannon Briggs could beat Valuev but no one will ever get a shot.
I hope and pray everyday that Chagaev breaks Nicolay's ugly F****** face
Look who they lost to?? how can I ?? Its almost 70 Guys!!!
I couldn't even see to the end of a line that long! :o
What are you going to say when Valuev beats one or 2 of them?
OK what will you say IF he beats 1 or 2 of the guys you named?
What excuse are you going to make? That they became bums overnight?
They really were bums but you just didn't realize it? Might as well make the phony excuses now and get it over with. ???
As for you having a stroke...............my work is done here....... ;D
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Landmine your such a wind up merchant. I aint even gona bother responding, as its ridiculous. Thats all i gotta say.
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
Mind you, credit is due as far as being a one man army is concerned ::**
ON YOUR OWN SON!!! ;)
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
:coolclick: to landmine for at least making a case out of an impossible case. You could probably do steller work as a defense lawyer. I'm sure the Michael Jackson's and OJ Simpsons of this world would love to employ your services ;)
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
What was the percentage weight difference between old fighters and new fighters? Old fighter fought within 10 % of their own weight. Valuev outweighs most heavyweight boxers by 40 % extra. You can't compare. Imagine if the Rock weighed 250 lbs, while his opponents weighed 190lbs. He would have killed half of his opponents.
Re: Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??
landmine you really do make a lot of threads about valuev, but I can't help myself from replying to most, haha.
Well Rocky as someone said pretty much fought everyone around and was the undisputed champ, while valuev holds a portion of the title. Now if he can unify, which I think he can't, but let's just say he did, and then for the next few years took on all comers and beat a big majority of them then perhaps we can start comparing him to rocky. Till that happens he can go 100-0 and he won't be in the same league to me as rocky is, and comparing him to rocky will be nonsense. Also comparing the 4 best fighters rocky fought with the 4 best valuev fought and comparing their win percentages is pointless again because joe louis archie moore and the others fought better competition than valuev's opponents, I'll stop here because this thread is somewhat infuriating. Also you might want to note there are lies, damned lies, and statistics!
