Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
It's not just "hitting hard", you're purposely distorting what I said. And if you want to compare Tyson to the average construction worker, your credibility goes right down the toilet right now.
Incase you have never watched a prime Mike Tyson fight (and there aren't a lot of people who can say that - boxing and nonboxing fans alike), he did more than just "hit hard". He threw incredibly fast and accurate bombs. I agree that Joe was more elusive and intelligent than a lot of people give him credit for, but he was no Pernell Whitaker. He wasn't exactly hard to tag, and while he was tough he didn't exactly have Chuvalo's chin either. IMO Mike would simply outgun him. If Foreman could get to Joe so quickly, there is no doubt in my mind that Tyson's quick bombs would find Joe's chin pretty quickly. Once again I'm not saying Tyson deserves to be look at as a better fighter than JOe, I simply think he is a very bad matchup for him.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
It's not just "hitting hard", you're purposely distorting what I said. And if you want to compare Tyson to the average construction worker, your credibility goes right down the toilet right now.
Incase you have never watched a prime Mike Tyson fight (and there aren't a lot of people who can say that - boxing and nonboxing fans alike), he did more than just "hit hard". He threw incredibly fast and accurate bombs. I agree that Joe was more elusive and intelligent than a lot of people give him credit for, but he was no Pernell Whitaker. He wasn't exactly hard to tag, and while he was tough he didn't exactly have Chuvalo's chin either. IMO Mike would simply outgun him. If Foreman could get to Joe so quickly, there is no doubt in my mind that Tyson's quick bombs would find Joe's chin pretty quickly. Once again I'm not saying Tyson deserves to be look at as a better fighter than JOe, I simply think he is a very bad matchup for him.
You can't compare Foreman fight to how Tyson fight would go totally different in styles and i think Frazier would out gut Tyson like Holyfield did.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
It's not just "hitting hard", you're purposely distorting what I said. And if you want to compare Tyson to the average construction worker, your credibility goes right down the toilet right now.
Incase you have never watched a prime Mike Tyson fight (and there aren't a lot of people who can say that - boxing and nonboxing fans alike), he did more than just "hit hard". He threw incredibly fast and accurate bombs. I agree that Joe was more elusive and intelligent than a lot of people give him credit for, but he was no Pernell Whitaker. He wasn't exactly hard to tag, and while he was tough he didn't exactly have Chuvalo's chin either. IMO Mike would simply outgun him. If Foreman could get to Joe so quickly, there is no doubt in my mind that Tyson's quick bombs would find Joe's chin pretty quickly. Once again I'm not saying Tyson deserves to be look at as a better fighter than JOe, I simply think he is a very bad matchup for him.
You can't compare Foreman fight to how Tyson fight would go totally different in styles and i think Frazier would out gut Tyson like Holyfield did.
Point one,Foreman was alot taller then Frazier,Tyson isnt.
Secondly after the first Ali fight,Frazier was never the same fighter.You might as well view the Lewis loss,as indicitive of Tysons entire career.
Thirdly,quality of the division at the time,who did Tyson really fight?
Tyrell Biggs? Pinklon Thomas? Tony Tubbs? James"Bonecrusher" Smith?(great nickname,bad fighter), Razor Ruddock?(twice)
His two biggest wins were against a clearly over the hill Larry Holmes,and a puffed up Light-Heavyweight in Michael Spinks,who clearly didnt want to fight.
Yeah Mike's knockouts were spectacular entertainment,but at the end of the day he was a one dimmensional fighter,who never adapted to aging,and fought weak opponents.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
A suspect chin that withstood 8 rounds of Rocky Marciano's best shots when Louis was WELL past his prime!!!
Louis was flatfooted because he could be, he stalked his opponents and threw as hard as any heavyweight before or after him.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
A suspect chin that withstood 8 rounds of Rocky Marciano's best shots when Louis was WELL past his prime!!!
Louis was flatfooted because he could be, he stalked his opponents and threw as hard as any heavyweight before or after him.
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
I think you are being a bit hard on old Liston there. In his prime had all the heart in the world.He fought 1 of his early fights with a broken jaw.
Peolpe tend to judge Liston just on his fights with Ali and somtimes his fights with Patterson.
He was an all roung compleat fighter who was unlucky enough to face Ali in his prime.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
A suspect chin that withstood 8 rounds of Rocky Marciano's best shots when Louis was WELL past his prime!!!
Louis was flatfooted because he could be, he stalked his opponents and threw as hard as any heavyweight before or after him.
Lyle you really think that flatfooted Louis who had suspect chin would beat animal like Frazier ?? Louis took some hard shots of Rocky agreed but he had suspect chin Lyle you know that yourself and Frazier's bobbing and weaving style would be to much for Louis he was great fighter Lyle but his style is all wrong for fighter like Frazier.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Way to learn how to analyse those knockouts
Lets see
Two against Jersey Joe Walcott,his last two fights before he retired
Archie Moore,who had to come up 18 pounds for the fight
Don Cockell,a journeyman with absolutely no punch whatsoever
Harry Mathews,who actually lost to Cockell twice
Gino Buonvino,wow theres a stellar name,retired after the second time Rocky KO'ed him
And of course the 37 year old former champ who was allready taking smack at that point,and it still took him 8 rounds to do it
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
I think you are being a bit hard on old Liston there. In his prime had all the heart in the world.He fought 1 of his early fights with a broken jaw.
Peolpe tend to judge Liston just on his fights with Ali and somtimes his fights with Patterson.
He was an all roung compleat fighter who was unlucky enough to face Ali in his prime.
Good statement Mr Porky i did forget how good Liston was with his Jab and other things he could maybe win decision but really and truthfully i don't see Liston using his jab i see this as toe to toe war with Frazier edging because of his bigger heart imo.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Way to learn how to analyse those knockouts
Lets see
Two against Jersey Joe Walcott,his last two fights before he retired
Archie Moore,who had to come up 18 pounds for the fight
Don Cockell,a journeyman with absolutely no punch whatsoever
Harry Mathews,who actually lost to Cockell twice
Gino Buonvino,wow theres a stellar name,retired after the second time Rocky KO'ed him
And of course the 37 year old former champ who was allready taking smack at that point,and it still took him 8 rounds to do it
Well let's compare Rocky to some other fighters.....Nicolay Valuev 46 wins......34 KOs....and we all know Nicolay has fought the worst opponents ever and yet he couldn't KO as many as Rocky. Larry Holmes couldn't either!!!
Joe Frazier can bob all he likes....he never once weaved which is why Foreman done him in like he did.
The bobbing wouldn't affect Joe Louis because Louis knew better than ANYONE his range which is another reason he stayed flatfooted and another reason he was so successful.
Joe Louis was rarely out of position and did not have a suspect chin....he was KO'd TWICE in 72 fights.....where the fuck do you get your dillusional ideas from???
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Way to learn how to analyse those knockouts
Lets see
Two against Jersey Joe Walcott,his last two fights before he retired
Archie Moore,who had to come up 18 pounds for the fight
Don Cockell,a journeyman with absolutely no punch whatsoever
Harry Mathews,who actually lost to Cockell twice
Gino Buonvino,wow theres a stellar name,retired after the second time Rocky KO'ed him
And of course the 37 year old former champ who was allready taking smack at that point,and it still took him 8 rounds to do it
Well let's compare Rocky to some other fighters.....Nicolay Valuev 46 wins......34 KOs....and we all know Nicolay has fought the worst opponents ever and yet he couldn't KO as many as Rocky. Larry Holmes couldn't either!!!
Joe Frazier can bob all he likes....he never once weaved which is why Foreman done him in like he did.
The bobbing wouldn't affect Joe Louis because Louis knew better than ANYONE his range which is another reason he stayed flatfooted and another reason he was so successful.
Joe Louis was rarely out of position and did not have a suspect chin....he was KO'd TWICE in 72 fights.....where the F*** do you get your dillusional ideas from???
Ummmmm try reality
Louis was allready on smack when the fight happened,Rocky could have just waited for him to nod at that point
Hey Trevor Berbick beat Ali,send him to the boxing HOF
I mean he beat Ali right
Marciano's record is a collection of scrubs and has beens from beginning to end
Its not his fault,the division was weak at the time,but thats the reality of it
Re: smoking joe... frazier
....Yes which supports the fact that Louis had a good chin....and the fact that Rocky was 1 of 2 people to KO Louis supports the fact that Rocky hit hard.
Go be stupid on your own time.....quit wasting mine
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
....Yes which supports the fact that Louis had a good chin....and the fact that Rocky was 1 of 2 people to KO Louis supports the fact that Rocky hit hard.
Go be stupid on your own time.....quit wasting mine
Yeah another one was Heroin,he was allready on it
He was well past his prime,he was old and he was tired,and he was addicted
Hey I have my fave fighters too
And I accept the reality of what they did or didnt do.
B-hop,love the guy,Ill be the first to admit that for the majority of his middle weight reign,there was no great defining moment for him.
About the first one was when Atwun Echols hip tossed him and separated his shoulder
It is what it is
Be insulting on your own time,Ill stay here with the reality of what the reality is.
Re: smoking joe... frazier
Joe Louis didn't do heroin he did cocaine....get your facts straight!!!!
And if you're putting Joe the crack head in vs a Prime Joe Frazier then YES Louis would lose but that ain't what we're doing here is it???
