Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
Oscar has just been part of too many shady decisions. He got wins when he didn't win, and he got losses when he didn't lose. Bottom line.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
LOL tried to sort out the quotes like you but am not very good at it yet and didn't wanna mess up the post....
Anyway, first, Tito fought Winky at 160 not 154. And Tito might have been taller than Oscar and Mously but he was a skinny guy and most would agree that he was not suited for the middleweight division.
Haha. No worries. You're right about it being at 160. But to be fair, Winky was the one coming up in weight for that fight. Trinidad had fought there and held titles--it was Winky's first fight up from 154.
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Shane did not handle Vargas easier. The first fight was even untill they stopped it because of the swelling. And that was the same shot Vargas.
As per my other post, I really disagree. I didn't think that fight was anywhere near even. I thought Vargas looked horrible and won maybe 2 rounds. He would have been KO'd if the fight had continued.
I'm not going to respond to everything. You're right that I forgot about Campas and Carr (I don't think the way past his prime Whittaker really matters)--good point there. For a lot of the rest of it, I think we just disagree because we saw the fights differently. Which is good and fair, of course.
CC for the good discussion!
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
Well I agree with Kellerman (I believe Oscar won the Trinidad fight however), but I don't think it carries any relevance.
IMO Oscar has shown that he has world class abilities and could compete with the greats of the past in their prime. I think it's really just "lazy journalism" to just nitpick like that.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by shza
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
LOL tried to sort out the quotes like you but am not very good at it yet and didn't wanna mess up the post....
Anyway, first, Tito fought Winky at 160 not 154. And Tito might have been taller than Oscar and Mously but he was a skinny guy and most would agree that he was not suited for the middleweight division.
Haha. No worries. You're right about it being at 160. But to be fair, Winky was the one coming up in weight for that fight. Trinidad had fought there and held titles--it was Winky's first fight up from 154.
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Shane did not handle Vargas easier. The first fight was even untill they stopped it because of the swelling. And that was the same shot Vargas.
As per my other post, I really disagree. I didn't think that fight was anywhere near even. I thought Vargas looked horrible and won maybe 2 rounds. He would have been KO'd if the fight had continued.
I'm not going to respond to everything. You're right that I forgot about Campas and Carr (I don't think the way past his prime Whittaker really matters)--good point there. For a lot of the rest of it, I think we just disagree because we saw the fights differently. Which is good and fair, of course.
CC for the good discussion!
WOOT 100 posts. Now I can CC and I'll give you my first CC for good arguments. I guess we'll just agree to disagree hehe I'll see if I can get my hands on that Vargas-Mously fight. I only saw it that one time and I guess I saw it differently than you at the time.
In the end I said I agree with Max in that I think he meant that DLH does not have that W in a big fight. Unless you consider his win against Whitaker his big win, which I guess is acceptable. But that win was not very convincing to many. He also has his wins over Chavez which were pretty impressive even if they were past his prime.
In the end DLH is still a great fighter who gave us all great fights and I truelly hopes he retires before he gets dominated like Winky did to Tito and people don't start doubting how great he is.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
mayweather hasn't really been invloved in shady decisions pacdog where ru getting that from apart from castillo in the 1st fight and come would say the DLH fights he's won every other fight he's fought in without a shadow of a doubt imo.
come on stop hating on the guy.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by luvfightgame
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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65
I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.
Vargas in the same category as Hearns? Hearns beat Pipino Cueves to win his first title. 11 defenses for Cueves to that point, Hearns beat Wilfred Benitez for his second title.. one loss for Benitez to that point and that was to Sugar Ray Leonard. Hearns was the only man to knock out Duran to that point. And Hearns outboxed Virgil Hill at Lightheavyweight. Virgil was undefeated with 10 defenses ... That was Tommy's 6th world title . Hearns did not lose all his big fights. Vargas did. I do not think I was unfair to Vargas. Tommy is 4-2-1 against the Hall of famers ...Can you say that for Vargas? I respect you defense of him, but the numbers are not in favor of him being like Tommy. Tommy lost his 2 biggest fights but won the rest.. That is the difference, he did beat the other 4 legends he fought. Out of the 6 guys he fought.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
Oscar beat Mayweather by 2 rounds in my opinion.. watched again the other day on TV to confirm my original thoughts.. Oscar was pressing the action and molesting Mayweather for the most part .. Floyd landed some nice clean shots on occasion and won a few of the later rounds via Oscar tiredness. . but not enough to carry a win. Its ashame Oscar didn’t use the jab a bit more , would have easily sealed the victory for him.. o well ( next )
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
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Originally Posted by shza
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
As for your list. I would rate them like this:
Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar
I rate them:
Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito
I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.
At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito?? I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.
If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.
I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.
Mosley would of beat Tito bad.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by luvfightgame
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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65
how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?
I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.
I hope you didn't just say Vargas is in same category as Hearns.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Mosley would of beat Tito bad.
Doubt it very much. What makes you say this?
Mously did better than Tito against DLH and Winky but DLH fought a completely different fight against Mously because he was not afraid of him so much and Winky's style was perfect for a straight puncher like Tito.
Bottom line is Moulsy is WAY more hittable than Winky and if he couldn't take Forrest's shots what makes you think he could take Tito's shots ???
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65
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Originally Posted by luvfightgame
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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65
I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.
Vargas in the same category as Hearns? Hearns beat Pipino Cueves to win his first title. 11 defenses for Cueves to that point, Hearns beat Wilfred Benitez for his second title.. one loss for Benitez to that point and that was to Sugar Ray Leonard. Hearns was the only man to knock out Duran to that point. And Hearns outboxed Virgil Hill at Lightheavyweight. Virgil was undefeated with 10 defenses ... That was Tommy's 6th world title . Hearns did not lose all his big fights. Vargas did. I do not think I was unfair to Vargas. Tommy is 4-2-1 against the Hall of famers ...Can you say that for Vargas? I respect you defense of him, but the numbers are not in favor of him being like Tommy. Tommy lost his 2 biggest fights but won the rest.. That is the difference, he did beat the other 4 legends he fought. Out of the 6 guys he fought.
I did say category, not on equal footing. I don't think that Vargas is as good a fighter as Hearns, but he is in the same category in that he fought the best and gave good showings. He's the last guy to beat Winky, and some people say he was winning against Mosley (not me), and some even say that he would have put Tito away if not for Tito's low blows. So if you consider those factors he's got a pretty solid resume.
I am not a big fan of the guy, but I have a lot of respect for him. He's a tough sob and people discrediting him over his losses is ridiculous. In addition if he didn't have a severe back injury the outcome of some of those fights may have been different. Anyway, he doesn't deserve the "never was" label. He was a solid fighter and beating him was a solid accomplishment.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Mosley would of beat Tito bad.
Doubt it very much. What makes you say this?
Mously did better than Tito against DLH and Winky but DLH fought a completely different fight against Mously because he was not afraid of him so much and Winky's style was perfect for a straight puncher like Tito.
Bottom line is Moulsy is WAY more hittable than Winky and if he couldn't take Forrest's shots what makes you think he could take Tito's shots ???
Forrest was very tall guy and hit Mosley clean in 2nd round with perfect right hand Mosley still got up and survived the fight so he did take the best Forrest had to offer Mosley is very fast imo faster than Oscar he has chin and speed to beat Tito who was very one dimensional imo.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Mosley would of beat Tito bad.
Doubt it very much. What makes you say this?
Mously did better than Tito against DLH and Winky but DLH fought a completely different fight against Mously because he was not afraid of him so much and Winky's style was perfect for a straight puncher like Tito.
Bottom line is Moulsy is WAY more hittable than Winky and if he couldn't take Forrest's shots what makes you think he could take Tito's shots ???
Forrest was very tall guy and hit Mosley clean in 2nd round with perfect right hand Mosley still got up and survived the fight so he did take the best Forrest had to offer Mosley is very fast imo faster than Oscar he has chin and speed to beat Tito who was very one dimensional imo.
In addition Mosley is hittable because he's an offensive fighter. He's not afraid to get hit and he is focused on landing punches not avoiding them. He doesn't give up his chin and allow the guy to tee off on him. I personally think Mosley would beat Tito. It would be exciting and Mosley hits very hard as well. It would have been an action packed fight and I would think Mosley wins a close decision.
Re: Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman
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Originally Posted by luvfightgame
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Mosley would of beat Tito bad.
Doubt it very much. What makes you say this?
Mously did better than Tito against DLH and Winky but DLH fought a completely different fight against Mously because he was not afraid of him so much and Winky's style was perfect for a straight puncher like Tito.
Bottom line is Moulsy is WAY more hittable than Winky and if he couldn't take Forrest's shots what makes you think he could take Tito's shots ???
Forrest was very tall guy and hit Mosley clean in 2nd round with perfect right hand Mosley still got up and survived the fight so he did take the best Forrest had to offer Mosley is very fast imo faster than Oscar he has chin and speed to beat Tito who was very one dimensional imo.
In addition Mosley is hittable because he's an offensive fighter. He's not afraid to get hit and he is focused on landing punches not avoiding them. He doesn't give up his chin and allow the guy to tee off on him. I personally think Mosley would beat Tito. It would be exciting and Mosley hits very hard as well. It would have been an action packed fight and I would think Mosley wins a close decision.
There is one thing I agree it would be a great fight. This is the one fight I would have loved to have seen. It is too bad it never happend. Mously's speed would have given Tito trouble for sure. Most likely would drop Tito at some point. But we all know what happens when Tito is knocked down... I think at one point Tito's power would take effect more than Mously's power. It would end in a late KO or UD for Tito after several knockdowns. Like I said above, similar to the fight with Reed.
