Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
He only held the lightweight belt for 7 years,unified the WBC and WBA belts,took the welterweight belt from Leonard,and then moves up in weight again to become the light middleweight champ,and then moves up again to take the middleweight belt.
Whadda bum,I tells ya ;D
who did he take the MW belt from because he lost to hagler and hagler was the MW champ?
So then holding a belt for a long time makes him great? top 10? because there are a number of guys that did that...
And still you haven't named the fighter that he beat that made him great? My point is so what if he held the belt for a long time..nowadays fighters aren't given credit for winning belts, or reigning for a long time but rather who they fight...and certainly aren't rated high because they lose to great fighters but rather because they beat great fighters....
and if beating ray leonard 1 out of three times makes him great, then montell griffith must be all world because he beat toney twice took the belt from RJJ (albeit DQ)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
ESPN – Roberto Duran 6 p4p all time
Panel from the associated boxing press Roberto Duran – number 7 p4p all time
BBC writers poll – Roberto Duran number 3 p4p all time
IBRO is an esteemed group of analysts who are well researched in the history of boxing. The IBRO membership had 30 historians participating in the poll they had Roberto Duran number 7 p4p alltime
The Sun online poll – Roberto Duran number 9 p4p all time
Just a few I picked out - but you won't find any respected poll that doesn't include him.
Maybe JonesMyweather knows more than 99% of the rest of the boxing world :-\
And I could less what a bunch of polls say..I'm asking for you and anybody else on here to decide for yourself...forget reading the results of polls....by what standard do you think he's deserving of top 10 ATG status?
certainly wasn't because of who he beat....
certainly isn't because he beat leonard 1 out of 3....
is it just because he moved up in weight?
i hope not because of his record it's padded with the likes of the tijiauna or panamanian cartel henchmen...
i hope not because he lost to hearns and hagler....
just let me know why you think he's deserving of a top ten ranking....
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pepp, Roberto Duran, Julio Cesar Chavez, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Roy Jones Jnr, Harry Greb, Pernell Whitaker - all these guys have a claim
You could make a case for Hopkins,record holder for title defenses,unified the belts,and was able to move up to beat Tarver at 40
No he beat Welterweights moving up to Middleweight he never beat a great natural Middleweight ever.
Yes he did,Joppy,Holmes,Echols,etc,etc,etc
His career didnt start the day Tito and Oscar tried to move up
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pepp, Roberto Duran, Julio Cesar Chavez, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Roy Jones Jnr, Harry Greb, Pernell Whitaker - all these guys have a claim
You could make a case for Hopkins,record holder for title defenses,unified the belts,and was able to move up to beat Tarver at 40
No he beat Welterweights moving up to Middleweight he never beat a great natural Middleweight ever.
Yes he did,Joppy,Holmes,Echols,etc,etc,etc
His career didnt start the day Tito and Oscar tried to move up
All of those guys you mentioned are just over average not even elite he has never beat a great Middleweight ever if it wasn't for Oscar and Tito natural Welterweights moving up his record would just be as bad as Calzaghes reign is.
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pepp, Roberto Duran, Julio Cesar Chavez, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Roy Jones Jnr, Harry Greb, Pernell Whitaker - all these guys have a claim
You could make a case for Hopkins,record holder for title defenses,unified the belts,and was able to move up to beat Tarver at 40
No he beat Welterweights moving up to Middleweight he never beat a great natural Middleweight ever.
Yes he did,Joppy,Holmes,Echols,etc,etc,etc
His career didnt start the day Tito and Oscar tried to move up
All of those guys you mentioned are just over average not even elite he has never beat a great Middleweight ever if it wasn't for Oscar and Tito natural Welterweights moving up his record would just be as bad as Calzaghes reign is.
or durans
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pepp, Roberto Duran, Julio Cesar Chavez, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Roy Jones Jnr, Harry Greb, Pernell Whitaker - all these guys have a claim
You could make a case for Hopkins,record holder for title defenses,unified the belts,and was able to move up to beat Tarver at 40
No he beat Welterweights moving up to Middleweight he never beat a great natural Middleweight ever.
Yes he did,Joppy,Holmes,Echols,etc,etc,etc
His career didnt start the day Tito and Oscar tried to move up
All of those guys you mentioned are just over average not even elite he has never beat a great Middleweight ever if it wasn't for Oscar and Tito natural Welterweights moving up his record would just be as bad as Calzaghes reign is.
Glen Johnson (remember him,beat Jones like a red headed stepchild) as well
Johnson was 32-0 at the time
And last I checked,both Joppy,and Holmes held 1 of the belts in the division
Also Syd Vanderpool in his prime
Howard Eastman,who was 40-1
He did hold the title for 11 years you know
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
He only held the lightweight belt for 7 years,unified the WBC and WBA belts,took the welterweight belt from Leonard,and then moves up in weight again to become the light middleweight champ,and then moves up again to take the middleweight belt.
Whadda bum,I tells ya ;D
who did he take the MW belt from because he lost to hagler and hagler was the MW champ?
So then holding a belt for a long time makes him great? top 10? because there are a number of guys that did that...
And still you haven't named the fighter that he beat that made him great? My point is so what if he held the belt for a long time..nowadays fighters aren't given credit for winning belts, or reigning for a long time but rather who they fight...and certainly aren't rated high because they lose to great fighters but rather because they beat great fighters....
and if beating ray leonard 1 out of three times makes him great, then montell griffith must be all world because he beat toney twice took the belt from RJJ (albeit DQ)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
ESPN – Roberto Duran 6 p4p all time
Panel from the associated boxing press Roberto Duran – number 7 p4p all time
BBC writers poll – Roberto Duran number 3 p4p all time
IBRO is an esteemed group of analysts who are well researched in the history of boxing. The IBRO membership had 30 historians participating in the poll they had Roberto Duran number 7 p4p alltime
The Sun online poll – Roberto Duran number 9 p4p all time
Just a few I picked out - but you won't find any respected poll that doesn't include him.
Maybe JonesMyweather knows more than 99% of the rest of the boxing world :-\
And I could less what a bunch of polls say..I'm asking for you and anybody else on here to decide for yourself...forget reading the results of polls....by what standard do you think he's deserving of top 10 ATG status?
certainly wasn't because of who he beat....
certainly isn't because he beat leonard 1 out of 3....
is it just because he moved up in weight?
i hope not because of his record it's padded with the likes of the tijiauna or panamanian cartel henchmen...
i hope not because he lost to hearns and hagler....
just let me know why you think he's deserving of a top ten ranking....
He took it from Iran Barkley
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pepp, Roberto Duran, Julio Cesar Chavez, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Roy Jones Jnr, Harry Greb, Pernell Whitaker - all these guys have a claim
You could make a case for Hopkins,record holder for title defenses,unified the belts,and was able to move up to beat Tarver at 40
No he beat Welterweights moving up to Middleweight he never beat a great natural Middleweight ever.
Yes he did,Joppy,Holmes,Echols,etc,etc,etc
His career didnt start the day Tito and Oscar tried to move up
All of those guys you mentioned are just over average not even elite he has never beat a great Middleweight ever if it wasn't for Oscar and Tito natural Welterweights moving up his record would just be as bad as Calzaghes reign is.
Glen Johnson (remember him,beat Jones like a red headed stepchild) as well
Johnson was 32-0 at the time
And last I checked,both Joppy,and Holmes held 1 of the belts in the division
Also Syd Vanderpool in his prime
Howard Eastman,who was 40-1
He did hold the title for 11 years you know
Glen Johnson beat Washed up Jones
Joppy and Holmes aren't elite name one good fighter they beat ??
Re: name the great that made him great...
Johnson had been around the block 9 or 10 times as well when he beat Jones
Joppy held the belt for quite awhile himself,taking it in 96 against undefeated Shinji Takehara,his last title defense before Tito was 27-0 Jonathen Reid,Holmes had had 3 title defense when he ran in to Hopkins as well
So first you say he never fought a middleweight
Then it wasnt any good ones,even though Hopkins was the guy who unified the belts and held his for 11 years
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Johnson had been around the block 9 or 10 times as well when he beat Jones
Joppy held the belt for quite awhile himself,taking it in 96 against undefeated Shinji Takehara,his last title defense before Tito was 27-0 Jonathen Reid,Holmes had had 3 title defense when he ran in to Hopkins as well
So first you say he never fought a middleweight
Then it wasnt any good ones,even though Hopkins was the guy who unified the belts and held his for 11 years
I don't question Hopkins wasn't all time great but he isn't top 10 for certain and most of his opponents were average or only decent he never actually beat great Middleweight only great names he beat was Oscar and Tito and they were well above there natural weight.
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Johnson had been around the block 9 or 10 times as well when he beat Jones
Joppy held the belt for quite awhile himself,taking it in 96 against undefeated Shinji Takehara,his last title defense before Tito was 27-0 Jonathen Reid,Holmes had had 3 title defense when he ran in to Hopkins as well
So first you say he never fought a middleweight
Then it wasnt any good ones,even though Hopkins was the guy who unified the belts and held his for 11 years
I don't question Hopkins wasn't all time great but he isn't top 10 for certain and most of his opponents were average or only decent he never actually beat great Middleweight only great names he beat was Oscar and Tito and they were well above there natural weight.
Id say a guy who bracketed his reign as Middleweight champ with wins against very good undefeateds is pretty damned good
The reason Hopkins never gets credit,isnt about wether or not he beat anything you put in front of him,face it,its his style
Younger,he was a clenching infighter,which doesnt sell well
Old hes picking people apart two punches at a time from the outside
But at the end of the day he IS the master at tactics,he tailor made every fight to every fighter.
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Johnson had been around the block 9 or 10 times as well when he beat Jones
Joppy held the belt for quite awhile himself,taking it in 96 against undefeated Shinji Takehara,his last title defense before Tito was 27-0 Jonathen Reid,Holmes had had 3 title defense when he ran in to Hopkins as well
So first you say he never fought a middleweight
Then it wasnt any good ones,even though Hopkins was the guy who unified the belts and held his for 11 years
I don't question Hopkins wasn't all time great but he isn't top 10 for certain and most of his opponents were average or only decent he never actually beat great Middleweight only great names he beat was Oscar and Tito and they were well above there natural weight.
this is exactly my point about Duran...he didn't beat any really great fighters...you say hop doesn't get credit for beating joppy, echols..and basically don't give him credit for beating oscar and tito even though tito kayoed joppy a legit MW...
So if hop doesn't get credit for beating tito and oscar, then why should SRL get credit for beating Duran, who was above his natural weight, and not that good anyway (according to the fact that hop doesn't credit for beating joppy,echols,eastman,johnson,) then why should duran get credit for beating the guys he beat at light weight, because none of them are great...
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
He only held the lightweight belt for 7 years,unified the WBC and WBA belts,took the welterweight belt from Leonard,and then moves up in weight again to become the light middleweight champ,and then moves up again to take the middleweight belt.
Whadda bum,I tells ya ;D
who did he take the MW belt from because he lost to hagler and hagler was the MW champ?
So then holding a belt for a long time makes him great? top 10? because there are a number of guys that did that...
And still you haven't named the fighter that he beat that made him great? My point is so what if he held the belt for a long time..nowadays fighters aren't given credit for winning belts, or reigning for a long time but rather who they fight...and certainly aren't rated high because they lose to great fighters but rather because they beat great fighters....
and if beating ray leonard 1 out of three times makes him great, then montell griffith must be all world because he beat toney twice took the belt from RJJ (albeit DQ)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
ESPN – Roberto Duran 6 p4p all time
Panel from the associated boxing press Roberto Duran – number 7 p4p all time
BBC writers poll – Roberto Duran number 3 p4p all time
IBRO is an esteemed group of analysts who are well researched in the history of boxing. The IBRO membership had 30 historians participating in the poll they had Roberto Duran number 7 p4p alltime
The Sun online poll – Roberto Duran number 9 p4p all time
Just a few I picked out - but you won't find any respected poll that doesn't include him.
Maybe JonesMyweather knows more than 99% of the rest of the boxing world :-\
And I could less what a bunch of polls say..I'm asking for you and anybody else on here to decide for yourself...forget reading the results of polls....by what standard do you think he's deserving of top 10 ATG status?
certainly wasn't because of who he beat....
certainly isn't because he beat leonard 1 out of 3....
is it just because he moved up in weight?
i hope not because of his record it's padded with the likes of the tijiauna or panamanian cartel henchmen...
i hope not because he lost to hearns and hagler....
just let me know why you think he's deserving of a top ten ranking....
He took it from Iran Barkley
if that's a feather in his cap for ATG status then RJJ should get credit for beating Ruiz...and PBF for beating Oscar...and Iran barkley was nothing more than that eras version of rahman, mccall, dougalss...meaning he got lucky against hearns and lost every meaningful fight after that except the rematch against hearns...
Re: name the great that made him great...
Oh Jones has gotten plenty of credit for Ruiz
Interesting sidenote about the claim that Johnson and Tarver beat a "washed up Roy Jones"
Hopkins is 4 years older and has beaten them both
Re: name the great that made him great...
Jones IMO is the greatest fighter of this era. He beat Hopkins, and no one else dominated they way he did. Everyone's reign comes to an end. RJJ is top 30 all-time. Hopkins is about 60th IMO. As far as Duran goes he is the greatest lightweight of all-time and is definitly top 10 in my ATG list.
Re: name the great that made him great...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Oh Jones has gotten plenty of credit for Ruiz
Interesting sidenote about the claim that Johnson and Tarver beat a "washed up Roy Jones"
Hopkins is 4 years older and has beaten them both
hopkins style isn't dependant upon reflexes which dwindle away with each passing day, RJJ was or is...so he wasn't the same fighter...not to mention hop didn't have to shed 25lbs of muscle to fight either one of them..but that doesn't matter because roy beat hop....and hop's reign at MW is only because roy moved out of the division ;)
