Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Lewis and Holmes were both better heavyweights than Holyfield. You could make a good argument that Holyfield is better than both PFP because of his work at crusierweight.
cc sweetpea. I think Lewis and Holmes were just better at consistent wins and they both had power.. Yes Holmes had power. At least to shut a guy down and make him into a shell. By the way, if you look at quality of opposition Holyfield is the greatest ever. Look at his resume. Incredible. Just at heavyweight. Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas,George Foreman,Bert Cooper, Michael Moorer (2 times), Riddick Bowe (3 times) Lennox Lewis(2 times), Mike Tyson (2 times) , Vaughn Bean ,Ray Mercer, James Toney, Chris Byrd, Lou Savarese, Fres Aquendo, Larry Holmes, Bobby Czyz, Larry Donald, Hasim Rahman, John Ruiz (3 times), Alex Stewart, James Tillis, Pinklon Thomas, Adlison Rodriquez. and the list goes on and on.. Look at that record. Unbelievable quality of opposition. On that alone he is great.. And that record is better than anyone at heavyweight as far as opposition then probably anyone in heavyweight history. Not saying he could beat them all but that record is astounding.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
No he isn't Holmes is he made 20 defences dominated his era Holyfield has been in exciting fights but he never really did dominate his era.
Is it fair to say though that Holmes was 'fortunate' if thats the right word to have fought in a weaker era.
Would he have reigned for so long had he a prime Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe to contend with?
There arn't any elite fighter names on his record after all, unless you count Parkinsons ravaged Ali.
I see nobody on Holmes record that Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield wouldn't have beaten just as impressively.
Really who did he beat?
homes is a legend --he however thinks that he is the greatest heavy 2 ever 2 lace up the gloves. but because of his oppostion he cant be, ali was the greatest
I agree with you. How do you think he would have done had he faced Holyfields opponents? Tyson twice, Lewis twice, Bowe three times, Foreman and Holyfield himself?
His record is phenomenal though and he did have two really late title shots one as recent as 95 against McCall when he was about 46 :o
And he still beat Butterbean at over 50 years old. Thinking about it he'd make a great next opponent for Kimbo Slice :D
And that was razor thin close fight what i thought Holmes won.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
I don't know if it was Evander's opponent (Lou Savarese) or what but he looked good like he did ten years ago.I hope the best for him.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Lewis and Holmes were both better heavyweights than Holyfield. You could make a good argument that Holyfield is better than both PFP because of his work at crusierweight.
cc sweetpea. I think Lewis and Holmes were just better at consistent wins and they both had power.. Yes Holmes had power. At least to shut a guy down and make him into a shell.
By the way, if you look at quality of opposition Holyfield is the greatest ever. Look at his resume. Incredible. Just at heavyweight. Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas,George Foreman,Bert Cooper, Michael Moorer (2 times), Riddick Bowe (3 times) Lennox Lewis(2 times), Mike Tyson (2 times) , Vaughn Bean ,Ray Mercer, James Toney, Chris Byrd, Lou Savarese, Fres Aquendo, Larry Holmes, Bobby Czyz, Larry Donald, Hasim Rahman, John Ruiz (3 times), Alex Stewart, James Tillis, Pinklon Thomas, Adlison Rodriquez. and the list goes on and on.. Look at that record. Unbelievable quality of opposition. On that alone he is great.. And that record is better than anyone at heavyweight as far as opposition then probably anyone in heavyweight history. Not saying he could beat them all but that record is astounding.
I'll take Ali's list of opponents over Holyfield's, but Evander's list is certainly impressive.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
It's been a long time since Ali was around, so the question is really about an elite level of fighter.
Firstly, I do think that Holyfield is an all-time great...... heart, dedication, big fights etc.
I do think that quite a few people would have given him real problems - prime Foreman would have been too powerful, prime Holmes, to big and too slick, Prime Tyson too brutal. BUT Evander woukld have been competitive with them all and there are probably not hat many fighters you could say that about, period.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
for one second im not doubting evanders fighting resume because it is certainly outstanding but i do think there is a double standard when comparing one boxer to another people like Lou Savarese, i mean people are saying its a good win, fair does but tyson never gets props for destroying this guy when talking about records
same goes for Larry Holmes wasnt he past it in the tyson fight??? people are quick to jump in saying tyson fought nobodys but still add the same names to evanders record as some sort of great accomplishment
Alex Stewart
James Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Mike spinks
the on top of that mike fought people like
Trevor Berbick
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Frank Bruno
Carl Williams
Donovan Ruddock
Francois Botha
who are jus as if not better then a lot of the fighters on holyfields record,, i dont mean for this to sound like im hating on holyfield cos im not he is a great, i just think its a bit wrong to compare him to ali,frazier, prob even foreman & a prime tyson (not for accomplishments more on boxing strengths)
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by woodzo
for one second im not doubting evanders fighting resume because it is certainly outstanding but i do think there is a double standard when comparing one boxer to another people like Lou Savarese, i mean people are saying its a good win, fair does but tyson never gets props for destroying this guy when talking about records
same goes for Larry Holmes wasnt he past it in the tyson fight??? people are quick to jump in saying tyson fought nobodys but still add the same names to evanders record as some sort of great accomplishment
Alex Stewart
James Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Mike spinks
the on top of that mike fought people like
Trevor Berbick
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Frank Bruno
Carl Williams
Donovan Ruddock
Francois Botha
who are jus as if not better then a lot of the fighters on holyfields record,, i dont mean for this to sound like im hating on holyfield cos im not he is a great, i just think its a bit wrong to compare him to ali,frazier, prob even foreman & a prime tyson (not for accomplishments more on boxing strengths)
There is no doubt Tyson was spectacular in destroying B- level fighters but he never beat a legitimate A lister, unless you count the much smaller Spinks and the much older Holmes.
The fact he came up short 3 times against elite competition is a permanent blot on his record.
I still believe Tyson is an all time great but for me Lewis, Holmes and Hoylfield all rank above him.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
No he isn't Holmes is he made 20 defences dominated his era Holyfield has been in exciting fights but he never really did dominate his era.
yes Holmes did dominate, and he made his title defences quite clearly, but yet Holyfield managed to do something that Holmes never was able to do, and he did it 3 times, which was re-win a heavyweight title, he is the only 4 time heavyweight champion, IMO he should be ranked higher than Lewis because Lewis' biggest wins are against fighters way past their primes (Holyfield, Tyson), Holy didn't loose a fight so badly like Lewis until way out of his prime (both Bowe losses were close even the TKO, Moorer the first fight, i had Holyfield winning and yet on the scorecards he didn't loose by much, and even against Lewis he gave him hell)
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
You bring up some good points about Evander ,hard to argue . I would have to say if he wins another champinonship of the world ther could be no argument about him being the best since Ali. Not to mention he is a small heavyweight fighting this big guys.
I cant see Lewis being better than him seeing that Lennox got Koed by two bums . Even thought he came back and beat them both Evander always comes 100% . Can you imagine looking like him at his age . Im 37 and dont like to take my shirt off at the beach .LOL
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
No he isn't Holmes is he made 20 defences dominated his era Holyfield has been in exciting fights but he never really did dominate his era.
Holmes Era wasnt nearly as competitive as the Era Holyfield fought in ;)
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by JT Rock
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
No he isn't Holmes is he made 20 defences dominated his era Holyfield has been in exciting fights but he never really did dominate his era.
Holmes Era wasnt nearly as competitive as the Era Holyfield fought in ;)
To Quote RJJ
"They werent bad,I made them look bad"
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
I put Foreman as one of Ali's contemporaries even though he was much younger, so I think Holmes is the greatest hw since Ali. I'd have Evander a close second followed by Lewis. I thought Evander won their rematch as did Ring Magazine and the AP press. If the first fight hadn't been such a robbery I don't think LL gets the decision in the second. It was more like it was a make up. So considering that Evander in my mind was 1-1 against Lennox, beat Tyson soundly and had at least an equal if not better resume than any of his contemporaries I put him behind Larry. I think that Evander had he not let his ego make him try to KO Bowe would have won all three. When he boxed Riddick he did very well. I also think many of Evander's stamina/heart issues came from putting on too much muscle to fight at HW. I think he wanted so bad to be able bang with the big boys that he put on too much weight and it adverselyt effected his stamina. Larry much like Louis, Tyson and Marciano couldn't help that he didn't have another great HW to define himself against (while both in their prime). But his resume does boast some very good fighters and great fights. His tremendous skill to me is undeniable. I put his overall skills just behind Ali.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
I'm quite amazed by the results of this poll so far. Holyfield currently has the most votes on 11 with Lewis, Tyson and Holmes all on 10, BUT George Foreman, the legend only has 2 votes ???
I'm suprised he's rated as low as he is, although as Vanchilds above said he sees him as a contempory of Ali's.
But still I'm suprised he's scored so low.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
That's pretty much a bullshit quote though because past 1994 and the Toney and Hopkins wins, the only fighters to emerge and do pretty good were Clinton Woods and Antonio Tarver.
Holmes' competition was weak, there is no doubt about it. He pretty much had an extended Floyd Patterson like run going there. Not saying he isn't talented because there is an argument that he is one of the more talented heavyweights ever, but BEST and GREATEST are two completely separate things in my eyes. Holmes could be the BEST, but doesn't make the boat as the GREATEST.
This is pretty much a two horse race in my eyes. Lewis and Holyfield are right up in the same echelon as far as heavyweights go. I think both are on the doorstep or just inside as two of the 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. Lewis was simply dominant in a good era, came back from being written off as pretty much a bust, was slammed by his own trainer and then comes back to become a great fighter. Not many people acknowledge it, but Lennox had to have heart to come back from all that.
But Holyfield, he's been consistently at the top for a very long time now and now he's back yet again. If he wins a title, which is not by any means out of the question, then I would say he has to be the greatest heavyweight of the last 30 years. It was 20 years ago he beat Qawi the second time, and 18 years since he became a contender with the win over Dokes.
With the exception of the last 4 years, he's been at the top of the division the whole way through. I think he's definitely earned the crown of greatest heavyweight of the last 30 years.
I have disliked everything he's done past the Toney fight, I saw him working the heavybag for his comeback and it was just depressing. But he's doing good, and while a win over Savarese doesn't mean anything in the overall scope of things as far as the title picture goes, it's a good win. I'm rooting for him to get a title shot against anyone not named Wladimir or Samuel.
Re: Is Envander Hoylfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'm suprised he's rated as low as he is, although as Vanchilds above said he sees him as a contempory of Ali's.
Same thing with me, most of his great work came before Ali retired, the comeback was fun and everything but that alone doesn't merit with the rest. If it is all around greats, I would rank George higher then Holmes definitely, then probably place him at number 1.
Good topic and great first post Bilbo CC.
