Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Here's what you don't understand about the whole ali thing, he was unqualified to serve. The government gave him a test and he failed it thus making him unsuitable for combat. Once the war picked up the government went against their previously set up protocols and made ali eligible to be drafted. If ali was originally eligible to serve this wouldn't of been the big deal that it is but because the government basically changed their own rules just to try and get ali to serve and then hand out punishment for something he shouldn't of been able to do in the first place makes it a crime.
I'm not standing here calling ali a saint, the man was probably the biggest shit talker in the history of the sport but atleast he backed it up. Of course boxing is a violent sport but there's more of a competition factor to it than there is in war. "War doesn't determine who's right, it determines who's left"-patton (maybe?). Martin Luther King wanted nothing to do with ali because he considered ali a violent man and that was against everything king believed in. I'm not saying ali stood as a symbol of something richeous but he stood his ground for HIS beliefs despite the unjust punishment they threatened and carried out against him and that deserves some recognition.
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Lyle
My Great Uncle Tony served at Pearl Harbour
My Dad served in Nam
Both as Marines
Im somehow able to see the difference between Kata 3,an Uppercut,a Rap,and napalm
HAHAHA.. you could not have put it any better.. really.
How is boxing being compared to actual war? The most ludicrous thing i've heard in a while. Trainer monkey is right on the money.. It's actually not even a matter of opinion, it's a fact. The only way 'war' can be related to boxing is when used figuratively, eg: "The 'war' between Gatti and Ward"
and saying you can't be for one and against the other is laughable. Boxing is a sport, war is not. Sports are for entertainment, among other things, war is not. If you watch boxing because you like violence then that's not normal.. and i'm not saying you can't be pumped up for a fight and want someone to get KTFO cause thats part of the sport.. but killing is not. War is about killing for the (hopefully) better of your country.. There is NO comparison... laughable.
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
I was thinking his record would be about 61-2 my resoning is that he wins about 2 fights per year those 3 years, and isnt as haggard by the time he fights Spinks, Holmes, and Berbick. I subtracted those fights reasoning that he would retire before those.
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Contest
I was thinking his record would be about 61-2 my resoning is that he wins about 2 fights per year those 3 years, and isnt as haggard by the time he fights Spinks, Holmes, and Berbick. I subtracted those fights reasoning that he would retire before those.
Ali generally fought much more frequently than that. In 1966 he fought five times, and by only March of 1967, when he was banned, he had already had two bouts that year. In 1971, his first full active year in his comeback, he fought four times, and in 1972 he fought six times!
I see you are retaining Ali's loss to Frazier in 1971. Of course this is just an academic exercise, but if Ali had not been banned, he would most probably have faced Frazier in '68 or '69, who would have been a (if not the) leading contender, which would have favoured Ali much more than March 1971 following his inactivity. Conceivably they might have met two or three times by the early '70s! Who knows how Ali would have changed his style without the enforced inactivity. He may have seen off Frazier by the early 70s, remaining unbeaten and threatening Joe Louis's record number of defences well into that decade. Alternatively, he may not have adapted to a gradual erosion of skills in the same way that he did with his inactivity; he may have taken his contenders too lightly on the back of an unbeaten run, or earlier wars with Frazier might have taken their toll; he might not have had his jaw freakishly broken by Norton, but he may not have conceived of the rope-a-dope against Foreman, who would have been a mere contender, and the fight might have occurred earlier and probably not in Zaire! Just some food for thought...
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Ali was a great fighter. A great champion. But that's about it. He was not a great person. And he sure as hell was no hero. Ali looked out for Ali. And that's it. He had nothing to do with if the military draft is use or not. To give him credit for it is hilarious.
Nice, Ali was a arrogant hypocrite as well
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I won't even argue anymore...just go ahead....let's all follow Ali, greatest ever....let's never question ANY of his decisions.....the decision has been made so start following everyone....everyone fall in line
Way to take the low road while pretending to take the high one
How many hours of Oreilly do you watch a week?
didnt you just slam him for not keeping politics out of this... what does oreily have to do with anything?? way to keep politics out
lyles point is that ali is a hypocrite.... his profession is to beat people up... but he is against violence...when its benificial for him
ali could have served the country that gave him so much.. and tour the world boxing just like louis... there wasnt going to be any battles he would have to fight in.... but he had to be a self-centered dick take the money from the american soldiers that paid for his fights.... but in return wouldnt even give them a free match for their service for FIGHTING FOR HIM....
he should have been banned from boxing... why should america give him anything...when he wouldnt give america anything... he is a border line traitor
To: punisher... he wasnt allowed in the military because he didnt do well on his (well he was book stupid)... but to fight exhibitions around the world ..yeah i think your intellegance is irrelevant when your a champ and could do good morale for your country by boxing..
i have never agreed with one of violent demise's statements more... he is dead on!!!
sorry no contest: for not staying on point... its very hard to speculate about the 3 years... it was his prime... but then again it left him fresher for the later years.. not the real, real, late years.. i dont think he would have been know as any better boxer though... he could have had bad luck and got beat by frazier and foreman in a row... its not like ali just dominated them.. if he lost to them and not of been banned his "what if" status would have been gone...
the "what if" factor is marciano's biggest attribute... who really knows how good he was... he was never beat...what if
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Very correct VD.....I think the SADDEST thing the US ever did to a boxer was what they did to Joe Louis after all he had done with the Army and inspiring people to support the war effort vs the Axis powers.
Joe got railroaded by the IRS and it left him destitute for the rest of his days
now there was a real "CHAMP"...not only did he serve but how many "prime" years did he lose out on?....
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
I always wondered why Ali just didn't fight overseas during the three years...I've read the biography, but I don't recall a real explanation.....anyone know?
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
I always wondered why Ali just didn't fight overseas during the three years...I've read the biography, but I don't recall a real explanation.....anyone know?
Because he is a overatted big mouth bitch, Joe Louis was the real American hero...
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
I always wondered why Ali just didn't fight overseas during the three years...I've read the biography, but I don't recall a real explanation.....anyone know?
I don't know...but might ISLAM have played a part in it? Or the people involved in it that were in Ali's ear?...
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Love this debate,I will say having seen the beginning and nearly the end, He has not ghanged his beleives. Secondly to me has not Dignity.
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Secondly has not lost Dignity that should read tired
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Love this debate,I will say having seen the beginning and nearly the end, He has not ghanged his beleives. Secondly to me has not Dignity.
lol this sentence is awful mate. Your posts are usually so lucid as well. Did you forget to take your tablets?
;D
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I won't even argue anymore...just go ahead....let's all follow Ali, greatest ever....let's never question ANY of his decisions.....the decision has been made so start following everyone....everyone fall in line
Way to take the low road while pretending to take the high one
How many hours of Oreilly do you watch a week?
didnt you just slam him for not keeping politics out of this... what does oreily have to do with anything?? way to keep politics out
lyles point is that ali is a hypocrite.... his profession is to beat people up... but he is against violence...when its benificial for him
ali could have served the country that gave him so much.. and tour the world boxing just like louis... there wasnt going to be any battles he would have to fight in.... but he had to be a self-centered dick take the money from the american soldiers that paid for his fights.... but in return wouldnt even give them a free match for their service for FIGHTING FOR HIM....
he should have been banned from boxing... why should america give him anything...when he wouldnt give america anything... he is a border line traitor
To: punisher... he wasnt allowed in the military because he didnt do well on his (well he was book stupid)... but to fight exhibitions around the world ..yeah i think your intellegance is irrelevant when your a champ and could do good morale for your country by boxing..
i have never agreed with one of violent demise's statements more... he is dead on!!!
sorry no contest: for not staying on point... its very hard to speculate about the 3 years... it was his prime... but then again it left him fresher for the later years.. not the real, real, late years.. i dont think he would have been know as any better boxer though... he could have had bad luck and got beat by frazier and foreman in a row... its not like ali just dominated them.. if he lost to them and not of been banned his "what if" status would have been gone...
the "what if" factor is marciano's biggest attribute... who really knows how good he was... he was never beat...what if
The NFL is a very violent sport
Send the Colts to Iraq
Re: Ali's stand against the U.S government
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I won't even argue anymore...just go ahead....let's all follow Ali, greatest ever....let's never question ANY of his decisions.....the decision has been made so start following everyone....everyone fall in line
Way to take the low road while pretending to take the high one
How many hours of Oreilly do you watch a week?
didnt you just slam him for not keeping politics out of this... what does oreily have to do with anything?? way to keep politics out
lyles point is that ali is a hypocrite.... his profession is to beat people up... but he is against violence...when its benificial for him
ali could have served the country that gave him so much.. and tour the world boxing just like louis... there wasnt going to be any battles he would have to fight in.... but he had to be a self-centered dick take the money from the american soldiers that paid for his fights.... but in return wouldnt even give them a free match for their service for FIGHTING FOR HIM....
he should have been banned from boxing... why should america give him anything...when he wouldnt give america anything... he is a border line traitor
To: punisher... he wasnt allowed in the military because he didnt do well on his (well he was book stupid)... but to fight exhibitions around the world ..yeah i think your intellegance is irrelevant when your a champ and could do good morale for your country by boxing..
i have never agreed with one of violent demise's statements more... he is dead on!!!
sorry no contest: for not staying on point... its very hard to speculate about the 3 years... it was his prime... but then again it left him fresher for the later years.. not the real, real, late years.. i dont think he would have been know as any better boxer though... he could have had bad luck and got beat by frazier and foreman in a row... its not like ali just dominated them.. if he lost to them and not of been banned his "what if" status would have been gone...
the "what if" factor is marciano's biggest attribute... who really knows how good he was... he was never beat...what if
The NFL is a very violent sport
Send the Colts to Iraq
we dont have a draft going on or they would...
whats your point??? why did u highlight my statement.. your commit didnt say anything about my statment...
elvis(the king) went.. nobody is above the u.s. military..
back to ali's three years away from his prime...
