Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
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Originally Posted by Poom
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Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by BIG H
Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!
Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe
Duran I
He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight
Hearns I
Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though
Hearns II
I thought he was well beaten
I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them
At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that
Only reason he lost the Duran fight is because Duran was talking trash that Leonard never fights or brawls ect so Leonard wanted to prove he could stand his ground if Leonard would of fought his normal way the trilogy would be 3-0 to Leonard.
Hearns was a beast at Welterweight 6 foot 1 tell me one person at Welterweight who wouldn't be outboxed by Hearns at some point ??
I think Leonard is great he had 3 year lay off and comeback to beat number 1 man in Middleweight division Hagler.
Beating
Hearns
Hagler
Duran
Benitez makes you a great.
Surely that proves that shows his frail mentality, not exactly something you expect from a great.
The loss to Duran takes him down a lot in my opinion, Duran was great but he was 12 lbs over his best weight. But he redeemed himself making Duran quit. The third fight came so late it has no historical relevance to me. Beating Hearns (Knocking him out aswell) is a great acheivement, specially showing the character forcing teh kayo while down on the cards. The second fight IMO Hearns won but it goes down as a draw in the record books so after two fight with Hearns being able to say you never lost to 'The Hitman' that is a fantastic thing to be able to boast about. To out fox Hagler the way he did but The biggest jewel in his crown. To beat one of the greatest middleweight's of all-time at 160 lbs is SRL's greatest achievement IMO. a win over a much bigger Don Lalonde is another vital part of the great moments in his career. The losses to Norris and Camacho don't mean anything to me. Ali lost to Berbick but everyone forgets that fight and remebers his prime so thats what I am doing with Leonard.
I have him just outside the top te of all-time.
well does it show a frail mentality or massive balls ?
If I was a great "boxer" i wouldn't have the guts to dare slug with a beast like the Hands of stone heh.
Well those massive balls didn't gain him the win, big balls are good but a win is far better
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Of course he won the next one,and he proved he could survive a slug fest nobody thought he could,making everyone re-think whatever game plan they had for him
1 loss today can be worth 10 wins down the road
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Leonard is one of the most difficult fighters to rank, because he basically took 5 full years off during what could have been his prime.
I thought he lost to Hagler and lost the rematch with Hearns.
I'd probably put him right about #10 all-time.
One of the great arguments in boxing is trying to rate Leonard/Duran/Whitaker all-time PFP. There's really no right answer.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
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Originally Posted by BIG H
Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say
Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.
Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims
His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by BIG H
Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say
Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.
Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims
His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.
Great question Ice Cold. Hearns didn't just beat Duran, he iced him like Duran was some sort of club fighter & Hearns was using the fight as a tune up bout.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Definitely among the all-time greats. Tremendous natural talent, especially his hand and foot speed and boxing ability. Despite being able to out-box most opponents, he often went in for kill. Didn't hurt that he had excellent power and a tremendous chin.
But its that heart that distinguishes him from many other extremely talented fighters (like say, roy jones). He went toe to toe with duran when he didn't have to. his KO of hearns was one of the most dramatic comebacks in boxing history. He almost repeated that in Hearns II. Often great atletes are defined by great moments, and Leonard had more than most: like making duran quit, or coming off the ropes in rd 9 vs. hagler. What heart, what drama.
But the real characteristic that puts him among the all-time was his ability to win while his skills declined. The hagler fight was one of the best thought out strategies in boxing history (probably ali-foremen being the greatest). The greatest athletes in history (ali, Jordan) were able to win with brains and change their style as their skills eroded, something tyson, for example, could not do.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by BIG H
Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say
Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.
Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims
His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.
You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time. ;)
Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!
He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??
When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec ;)
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
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Originally Posted by Manju
Definitely among the all-time greats. Tremendous natural talent, especially his hand and foot speed and boxing ability. Despite being able to out-box most opponents, he often went in for kill. Didn't hurt that he had excellent power and a tremendous chin.
But its that heart that distinguishes him from many other extremely talented fighters (like say, roy jones). He went toe to toe with duran when he didn't have to. his KO of hearns was one of the most dramatic comebacks in boxing history. He almost repeated that in Hearns II. Often great atletes are defined by great moments, and Leonard had more than most: like making duran quit, or coming off the ropes in rd 9 vs. hagler. What heart, what drama.
But the real characteristic that puts him among the all-time was his ability to win while his skills declined. The hagler fight was one of the best thought out strategies in boxing history (probably ali-foremen being the greatest). The greatest athletes in history (ali, Jordan) were able to win with brains and change their style as their skills eroded, something tyson, for example, could not do.
Superb post friend,have a cool click on me.
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Originally Posted by BIG H
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by BIG H
Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say
Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.
Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims
His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.
You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time. ;)
Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!
He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??
When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec ;)
CC Big H,totally agree. Duran was first and foremost a lightweight and is as complete a legend there as you'll find in any weight class although I didn't actually know he started at 119?!?!?!?! Anything he did after lightweight was the icing on the cake and for him to go as high as he did and still win is simply sensational.Good posting. I've never seen Duran not in a top 10 list and usually top 5.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Not to go on a tangent, but I would have loved to see ODH vs Duran at 135
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by BIG H
Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say
Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.
Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims
His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.
You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time. ;)
Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!
He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??
When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec ;)
And Chavez was 89-0 before he lost he should be top 5 aswell then ?? im making comments on what i think about Duran and 5 is way too high imo he only beat 2 good names at Lightweight Ken and Esteban and them 2 names shouldn't make you top 5 yes he had amazing record but top 5 of all time ?? surley not.
He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??
It doesn't matter he still lost in brutal fashion Duran lost most of the big fights like losing the trilogy against Leonard losing to Hagler yes he gave good account of himself but still lost he lost to Hearns in 2 rounds and he lost to Wilfredo Benitez and just because i disagree i have to look up on boxrec ?? i have watched many Duran fights and have studied up on him not on boxrec either.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say
Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns
How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.
Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims
His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.
You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time. ;)
Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!
He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??
When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec ;)
And Chavez was 89-0 before he lost he should be top 5 aswell then ?? im making comments on what i think about Duran and 5 is way too high imo he only beat 2 good names at Lightweight Ken and Esteban and them 2 names shouldn't make you top 5 yes he had amazing record but top 5 of all time ?? surley not.
He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??
It doesn't matter he still lost in brutal fashion Duran lost most of the big fights like losing the trilogy against Leonard losing to Hagler yes he gave good account of himself but still lost he lost to Hearns in 2 rounds and he lost to Wilfredo Benitez and just because i disagree i have to look up on boxrec ?? i have watched many Duran fights and have studied up on him not on boxrec either.
I agree with you ICB that Duran is not an all time top 5 P4P but is an all time top 5 LW........
You have to cut him some slack on the Hearns starching though.........I don't care who you are from 140-160 if you were caught with that shot flush you were laying down........Almost without question...With the exception of Marvin Hagler who seemed to have the chin of freaking GRANITE!!!!!....
Also these guys were the elite of all time....The speed the heart the power every single one of them from the 80's Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Hearns....Just in a whole different league then everyone else
[youtube=425,350]3oSb21Vx5rE[/youtube]
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
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Originally Posted by
Scrap
The night of Leonard v Hearns Id been in Boxing 15 years. What I saw that night were the best 2 welters Ive ever seen who on that night would have beaten any other, living or dead.
I've NEVER, EVER seen a guy invent a way to beat a guy as well as the way he did. I'm often in complete awe of Leonard's skill in the ring. He wasn't the strongest or the hardest hitter, but he was the epitome, the epicenter of heart meets skill meets finesse and cunning.
Easily an all-time great in one of, if not THE greatest era boxing will ever know.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Well i have SRL on my greatest of all time list at number 10 if not for the lay off he be giving SRR a run for his money in my book. The beat Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler yea he beat him because Hagler gave alot of rounds away trying to out box him big mistake. he also was a champion in WW,LMW,MW,SMW,LHW how much more could he have done not to many people have been champion in 5 different weight classes and beaten 4 HOF and that was with him having a layoff for most of his prime. With out a doubt in my mind he is alltime great and if you have him lower then 11 or 12 i think you hating on the guy i have him at number 10 atg list of mine.
Re: SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??
Sugar Ray ws great.
Perhaps he's not top ten p4p ever, but thats because of the guys in front of him.
When Sugar Ray fought Tommy Hearns the first time, I think they were the two most dangerous welters ever.
That night both showed sublime skill and speed, toughness, power, heart and Ray exhibited serious finishing skills (we already knew Tommy had those.)
He is great.
