let me just give a comment.
HitmanDonny, VD should not be allowed to intrude or give comment to the fight. It may affect the decision of the judges.
VD, bro you will have your time to debate.
Printable View
let me just give a comment.
HitmanDonny, VD should not be allowed to intrude or give comment to the fight. It may affect the decision of the judges.
VD, bro you will have your time to debate.
My man,VD,you'll be able to kick ass soon. Let these guys finish,then it'll be your time. 8)
Bilbo's post Round 4.
I really don't have much to say in this round. I could once again provide a retort to everything in your previous post but it's unneccesary, your post was just one big low blow man.
You already have nothing left to say and so are trying to resort to cheapshots and questioning my integrity. Calling up past quotes of mine from my time on Saddos is just such a low act my friend.
I have been give a division to defend and I am doing my best to defend them. This bout is a test of our debating and reasoning skills, you however want to engage me on a personal level and question my own credibility as a flyweight fan.
This debate is not about personal insults my friend. :)
It seems that like so many posters on here you resort to cheap tactics when you run out of ideas. As this is only the fourth round it would seem you ran out of ideas fast.
Oh and just to make sure I score enough 'punches' to win this round let me say that Ivan Calderon IS rated higher p4p than Wladimir Klitschko.
Undefeated two division champion with super slick skills and an evasive style. He can stay in the pocket and not get hit and proved in his last fight against the much bigger and more powerful Cazares, the recognised MAN at junior flyweight that he could cope with adversity and respond well under pressure.
It was also a FAR MORE ENTERTAINING bout than any of Wladimir's recent bouts.
Finally in the next round I'll start to comment about the stars of the flyweight division, and will provide evidence of a huge global fanbase for the flyweight divisions. this was just a round in which I felt compelled to respond to your petty personal attack tactics.
Please could I appeal to the referee in this fight to make Julius speed up?
I typically have had to wait 24 hours for every reply so far. This was supposed to have concluded on Friday but we have still only had 4 rounds thanks to Rains only posting one response a day.
I'm a patient man but this is getting a bit silly :-\
It looks like Rains corner won't let him come out
Ok Julius I'm not sure if you are continuing but I'll start round 5.
This will be the first time I've been on the offensive and hopefully will be enough to end your challenge.
I'm going to make this a 'put up or shut up' round where we can compare head to head the merits of the two divisions regarding current 'excitement'.
Before I do I just want to reiterate what I said in round 3 regarding your Amerian bias and ethnocentric views. You stated the following 'What possible flyweight matches could you possibly sell on PPV?'
You also stated that the flyweight division is a division only for purists and that the flyweights will never be popular or main event fights.
These quotes, all absurdly untrue of course will now be addressed.
First of all let's just cut to the chase and state that by asking what flyweight fights could be sold as a PPV and what main event flyweight fights could made you actually mean what PPV fights at flyweight could be made IN AMERICA and what main events could the flyweights host IN AMERICA?
Now as an American I guess it's entirely unsuprising that you would consider AMERICAN PPV's as the sole source of determining popularity after all more than half of US school children think that the USA is the world's largest Continent ::**
But and I know this will come as an eye opener to you but there are OTHER COUNTRIES in the world where the flyweights are exceptionally popular.
Before I get to them lets just examine why the flyweights are not popular in the US. Firstly the average US adult male probably weighs upwards of 160 lbs with 50% weighing over 200! As a result the flyweight division is not a division that the US has any world rated fighters in.
So with no participation at world level themselves why would America one of the most insular and self absorbed nations in the world be interested in a division in which they didn't feature?
This is a nation who decided not to bother with the worlds most popular sport football, and reinvented their own version that they could play all by themselves after all :P
So why on earth would you reasonably expect American companies like HBO and Showtime to broadcast PPV fights featuring flyweights from other countries?
After all, even in divisions in which America feature strongly they don't bother to host PPV events of all but the most global of non US stars. For example Joe Calzaghe despite being the longest reigning champion of the world only appeared in on HBO for the first time last year, and that against the popular AMERICAN reality star Peter Manfredo ::**
I'll actually make a bold statement here. On reflection I believe that the flyweights are actually a LOT more popular than the NON American heavyweights are IN AMERICA!
Let's consider the facts, Vic Darchinyan, Nonito Donaire, Jorge Arce, Ferndo Montiel, Ivan Calderon, Brian Vilora, Christian Mijares, Ulisyse Solis and Edgar Sosa have ALL APPEARED on AMERICAN screens in the past year fighting NON AMERICAN opposition.
Apart from Wladimir Klitschko (who is American based anyway) when was the last time the US took an interest in a heavyweight fight involving NON Americans?
Oh yes, the American camera's were there to watch American champion Hasim Rahman lose his title to Oleg Maskaev but where were they when Maskaev made his first defense in Russia against Peter Okhello?
For that matter where were they when Nikolay Valuev won his world title against John Ruiz?
In fact the lack of interest is so great that when former American legend Evander Holyfield fought for an historic 5th world title against some Eastern European fighter in some Eastern European country they had to sell the fight on global PPV as neither HBO, Showtime or even ESPN were interested.
American interest in non American heavyweights is actually much LESS than their interest in non American flyweights, this despite the fact that the heavyweights are the supposed glamour division and the Americans have dozens of professional fighters in that division.
It is entirely fair to suggest that if the Americans had some decent world class flyweights of themselves they WOULD be on PPV and they WOULD be in main events in America.
Ok now let's look at rest of the world. In places such as the Philippines, Japan, South America etc where the average weight of an adult male is much less the flyweight division is HUGE and they do feature in main events.
The fight last week between Kameda and Naito in Japan had over 32% television coverage, this despite Japanese tv figures falling dramatically thanks to the popularity of consoles such as the Nintendo Wii. In July Japanese tv networks announced that for the first time an entire week had passed with no programme on any channel getting more than a 9% tv coverage share, so a 32% coverage is huge!
Fighters such as Nonito Donaire, Ivan Calderan and Koki Kameda have a HUGE following back in their own countries, so large in fact that even you as an American have seen their fights on American tv!
When was the last time Alexander Povetkin, Ruslan Chagaev, Sergio Lyakhovich, Oleg Maskaev or Sultan Ibragimov appeared on HBO or Showtime fighting a NON American opponent. Has it ever happened? I doubt it.
So in conclusion I feel I have successfully shown your belief that the flyweights are unpopular is flawed. You only feel they are unpopular because you live in America and America doesn't have any flyweights.
I expect you also think soccer isn't popular either ::**
I was going to expand on the flyweight fighters but I've written enough for now and will do that in the next round, :)
The american view strategy is obviously desperasion in your part biblo. This isn't about america, soccer, or all the other nounsense you keep posting. keep to the course, flyweights and heavyweights. You still haven't explain why the flyweight is overall better, your all about opinions and false facts. And you and your buddy v.d keep hoping im giving up when its you bilbo that has no direction with his debates, you say a lot of what your going to do but never actually do it. you just keep continueing on with more nounsense posting from bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Round 5:
To get you notice in the flyweight you have to deliver knock outs, those are what got arce and vic talked about a bit. Ivan and all the other flyweights need the knock outs to boost them to the spotlights. Fact is, theres nothing in the flyweight that can't be seen in the other weight classes. Take bantamweight and featheweight for example, those two division are above the flyweights and they need stars that brawl and deliver k.o's. The greats in those division, such as rafeal marquez, isreal valezquz, manny pacquio, marco anotonio barrera and eric morales. Those are the top of the list in those division, and they deliver drama, action and rivalry. What does the flyweight offer? NOthing, it can have boxing talents such as mijares but thats that. Do you think people would rather watch mijares or ivan over the other as good or better boxer in the above division? NO, they much rather pay to see bigger guys with the same skills, or better skills such as floyd maywheater. Arce and Vic were the only two bring a lot of attention to the flyweight, but now that both of their mouths have been shut, the flyweight will continue on just like in history to have unnotice good boxers but atleast appreciated by purist. And the only way the flyweight fighters can get more fame is to move up in weight and make noise in each division. the flyweight division is a making point, the onces that stay are stuck never being more famous and getting the big money pay day in the higher division. the bantamweight and featherweight produce more money for their fighters then the flyweight and thats the truth. That is why any flyweight that wants more fame and bigger pay day needs to move up in weight. Unless they are satisfied with the limited fame they may get in their respected countries, they won't be remember by all boxing fans with out the bigger fights in the higher divisions.
AS for the heavyweight, we are closer than ever to getting the next undisputed champion. Yes there are no american heavyweights nor flyweight americans that makes the current top lsit. That does not matter though bilbo, we are talking about the divisions. All over the world you can come up to anybody and ask them to name as many flyweight and as many heavyweights and for sure they will name more heavyweights then flyweights they can think of. This is overall stats, not just individual countries. you may have people in japan answering you that tyson is still a heavyweight fighter and name you twice as much flyweights but that would only be in few countries such as japan. Most of the other countries will name you a lot more heavyweights and maybe no flyweights world wide. You do the calculations you can get an average of more heavyweights world wide are more known then flyweights, meaning a lot more follow the heavyweights and less flyweights.
The flyweight needs knock out to get the recognizion. What else can the flyweight offer the fans that aren't seen in the other division? excitement means action a lot of action and knock outs. face it bilbo even you wouldn't pay to see a boxing match between two flyweights, people want to see action a lot of it from the smaller guys.
why don't you finally do what you say and expand on the flyweight fighters? what makes the flyweight more exciting than the ongoing drama in the heavyweights? Although there are no great heavweights, there are absolutely no great flyweight either. But the attention and anticipation will always remain more on the heavyweights? why? becuase heavyweights are a lot more fun to watch then smaller guys. We could have james toney talking shyt in one corner and two flyweights in another corner, guess who will get more attention? yup james toney. there are no james toney attitude in the flyweights that can rise the division to the bright lights. It needs a prince hamed to get the overall public not just the few purist; boxing still living off, keeping gullible. the heavyweight gets both side not just the purist, they also get the casual fans. We can put a lot more heavyweights against eachother and sell in europe, america, africa even asia. But flyweigths can only sell in the few small countries they have supporting their flyweight fighters.
Bilbo's post Round 6
The american view strategy is obviously desperasion in your part biblo. This isn't about america, soccer, or all the other nounsense you keep posting. keep to the course, flyweights and heavyweights. You still haven't explain why the flyweight is overall better, your all about opinions and false facts. And you and your buddy v.d keep hoping im giving up when its you bilbo that has no direction with his debates, you say a lot of what your going to do but never actually do it. you just keep continueing on with more nounsense posting from bilbo.
The American strategy is desperation? How is it it's fundamental to your argument!
You say that flyweights are not big business and that they don't feature in main events. THEY DO!
They don't feature in main events IN AMERICA because there are no decent American flyweights and hence no interest in the division.
You cannot even debate with me any more, merely running lines through my posts and writing 'RUBBISH' next to it ::**
If you disagree please explain why.
Demonstrate American PPV interest in non American heavyweight fights. Demonstrate that in countries where the flyweight divisions are strong that they still cannot make main events.
Wasn't the Kamedo Naito fight on this week a main event? Yes
Was the Calderon Cazares fight a main event? Yes
Were they televised? Yes, did they have large viewing audiences, YES!
The reality is that interest in the heavyweight scene is now so low that unless an American is fighting they don't even bother to screen the fights in the US.
This has always been largely the case with the other divisions too. How often do you see non American bouts on American television in any division?
Answer is you don't.
In fact the only non American guys who ever break through and win a big crowd following in America are LITTLE GUYS, the Erik Morales, Manny Pacquaio's and Marco Antonio Barrera's.
It is entirely likey that in the future the guys like Christian Mijares, Nonito Donaire and Ivan Calderon will become some of the biggest NON AMERICAN names in America.
HBO and Showtime are always looking for EXCITING fighters and more and more their attention has been on the smaller fighters. Nowadays when people think of power punchers do they think of heavyweights?
Not likely, it's guys like Ponce De Leon, Darchinyan, Valero, Pacquiao etc, not all flyweights it's true but it shows that OVERWHELMINGLY the trend has been a decrease in popularity in the heavyweight division and a surge of interest in guys at the lower weights.
That's why now on any big PPV card you'll most likely see some fighters featured from the flyweight and bantam weight divisions because they provide good entertainment value.
When was the last time you could say that about the heavyweight division?
Bilbo's post Round 7
Ok that's that over with, now let's (FINALLY!) get to the meat of the argument,. I say the flyweights are more exciting than the heavies you argue otherwise. Let's settle this once and for all.
List your top 10 most exciting heavyweight fights of the year and I'll list my top 10 flyweight fights of the year. Remember this is all about excitment and drama!
I'll go first, here's mine.
1.) Nonito Donaire vs Vic Darchinyan One of the greatest upsets of the year Donaire exposed Darchinyan big time catching him cold with a stunning one punch knockout, one of the best of the year. The fight completely overshadowed the supposed 'main event' of Travis Simms vs Joachim Alcine
2.)Hugo Cazares vs Ivan Calderon A fight that generated world wide interest amongst boxing fans the tiny 5ft Calderon stepped up a division to face the big punching and 7 inches taller Ring champion Hugo Cazares. In a fascinating fight Calderon befuddled and outsmarted the much bigger man and overcame the drama of being caught in the middle of the fight. Cazares was stalking him at the end, but Calderon held firm for a fantastic victory
3.) Ulises Solis vs Rodel Mayo In an action packed fight Solis recovered from a knockdown and almost being out on his feet to come back and knockout the brave challenger Mayo
4.) Fernando Montiel vs Luis Melendez One of the best fights of the year WBO Super flyweight champ Montiel picked himself up off the floor to finish Melendez in the final minute of a 12 round war
5.) Jorge Arce vs Tomas Rojas Although the fight took place at bantamweight Arce make no mistake is a flyweight star. After taking a beating for 5 savage rounds he stunned Rojas with a devasting body shot that spectacularly ended the fight
6.)Dimitri Kirilov vs Jose Navarro, The chief support for the Holyfield Ibragimov world title fight this flyweight bout was by far the more entertaining of the two. Kirilov overcame a knockdown in the 3rd round to fight back and win a close and extremely hard fought 12 round win.
7.) Christian Mijares vs Jorge Arce In a suprising upset the little known Mijares revealed himself to be a super slick southpaw who laid a smackdown on the popular Mexican ending his 8 year unbeaten run in spectacular fashion
8.) Daisuke Naito vs Daiki Kameda. A savage ugly brawl that erupted into one of the dirties fights in recent memory. Naito put a beatdown on Daiki Kameda, leading him to spectacularly implode in the fight and earn himself a year's ban from the sport. But don't let the fouls fool you, unlike Mayweather Judah this was a savage powerpunching fightfest and my favourite fight this week.
9.) Edgar Sosa vs Brian Viloria. An undercard fight on the Blaze of Glory HBO PPV featuring Manny Pacquiao vs Jorge Solis, this fight was clearly the best bout of the night. A toe to toe brawl Sosa managed to find something in the last rounds to pull off a huge upset win. Boxing writers praised the fight as being one of the finest of the year.
10) Daisuke Naito vs Pongsaklek WonjongkamAnother great showing from Naito he caused a huge upset by beating the Ring champ Wonjingkam and ending his 6 year and 16 title defenses reign. Wonjingkam had previously been rated at number 10 in the Ring magazines p4p list.
Ok that's my top 10 most exciting flyweight fights of the year.
Please post you top 10 most exciting heavyweight fights of the year and why you feel they were exciting.
:)
you call this a round? Most of what you said here has nothing to do with the flyweights, your giving props to the lower weight classes but you yourself is pointing out that its not the flyweight becuase the lower weight excitements ends at bantamweights up to welterweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Bilbo Round 8Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius "Marvelous" Rain
Wow Rain is barely throwing any punches at all now!
I would expect the post to be lost on you as it involves recognising a trend and as can we see from your arguments in past rounds you have no idea of recognising trends or of determining how something is going.
Let me explain, just like this debate is slipping away from you round by round,so over the past few years has the spotlight of attention in boxing been slipping away from the heavyweight division and shining more brightly on the smaller guys.
It's a trend in boxing. Right now whether people want to see knockouts, speed, skills, drama and excitement they look to the lower weight divisions to provide it.
The flyweights are just one of those divisions. It's a pivotal shift of focus.
Anyway my gauntlet was laid down in my folowing post. I've made my move and set down my top 10 most exciting of 2007 in the flyweight division.
To have any hope at all of staying in this debate you must provide your own.
What were your favourite 10 heavyweight fights of the past year that really excited you and had you and everybody watching them on the edge of their seats?
:lolhaha:
Round: 6Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
this is suppose to be impressive? you prolly didn't even anticipate any of these fights. if it weren't for our other buddies on saddo you would of never heard about these fights. You damn well exagerrated on your top then flyweights, i don't blame you though you prolly name all the ones you heard about :D but I'll do you one better since you ask so nicely. OOH v.d pay attention son you gonna learn something.
Wlady-Brewster: you damn right the rematch, you know you anticipated this fight.
Toney-Peter: toney getting drop and getting beat but still running his mouth, gotta love toney.
Ruslan-Valuev: The real david and goliat upset of the year.
Mccline-Peter: dropping peter three times but peter comes back to win the decision.
Valuev-Mccline: gotta love giants knocking out another big men.
Golota-Mcbribe: more heavyweight knock outs
Moore-Boruff: Michael Moore knocking out undefeated boruff in one round.
Sultan-Briggs: gave a good scrap for 12 rounds, robotic briggs got his ass handed to him which I love.
Mesi-Miller: Perfect record Joe mesi is back, knocking out both of his past two openents in the first round, shannon miller isn't exactly up there but you gotta love heavyweight knock outs and tko more then flyweight tko and k.o's :P ;D
Juan Carlos Gomez-Oliver Mccall: Pantera Negra dominated, gotta watch out for this guy coming up the ranks.
Come on bilbo, even though you got v.d as your cheerleader, your not impressing nobody. We all know your not even a flyweight fan so, how in the world can you fool the judges or any othe people that the flyweight is a lot more exciting? Besides v.D theres nobody fooling for your little tricks. And your trying to make it seem your really winning with the help of v.d a guy that would do anything to see me lose.
The heavyweights are far more marketable then any flyweight, and thats the bottom line cause they are more exciting to watch. Nothing beats a good ol heavyweight knock out. Em I right judges? would we pay and take a trip to vegas for a flyweight fight? better yet anywhere in the world? Majority of boxing fans will not spend on flyweight events, the money is just not there, the interest the fans the general public do not talk about flyweights. They are just the undercard of bigger fights. Like I said earlier, most of us don't even come to a live fight early enough to see flyweight fights.
Your in check bilbo, what you gonna do now? hehe ;)
you keep trying to point out that the focus has shifted from the heavyweight down to the lower weight classes. But the flyweight do not contribute much to the catagory of the LOWERWEIGHT CLASSES. like I said, the fan interest is base from the bantamweights to the weltherweights. That is the range of the dubbed, LOWER WEIGHT CLASSES. it stops before the flyweight, even you know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
And you call this a round again? in this pace your just giving up the rounds to me.
Bilbo's post Round 9Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius "Marvelous" Rain
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