Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
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Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.
Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO
He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?
Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Mosley was a phenom and tremendous talent but I think he was part of the huge rush to not really clean out or unify a division but rather to get to the big name fights.......Oscar.It happens more and more.He might of very well whipped over Amatuer rival Johnston (?) & might have Been way to fast for Nazarov (Naz had a chance with the power,too bad for wanting to much money) but we will never know.
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
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Originally Posted by
barrykil1980
while Mosley was an EXCELLENT lightweight he just doesnt have enough good names on his record to be considered an all time great at the weight. and at welter his record was patchy at best,2 losses to Forrest ,a close win over the transves....i mean De La Hoya, a KO of Adrian stone, a loss to Cotto(clear im my opinion) .....i mean its hardly great.
but i always liked Shane,he was a brave guy with a real fighters attitude but what do you think of his drug use??? nobody mentioned it yet.
i for one think it should count against him.a cheat is a cheat whether we like it or not .
Shane never tested positive, nor was he ever accused of steroid use.
The only issue was his links to the BALCO organistaion and the use of HGH was mentioned.
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO
He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?
Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.
Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?
Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.
Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.
Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!
Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.
Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Judah is gonna make Mosley wish he was never born. ;D
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.
Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.
Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!
Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.
Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!
I agree that Duran could do it all and I'm not saying that Shane is ahead of Duran. Keep in mind, that Duran won the belt before alphabet soup, so he didn't have the problem of having lesser guys out there than he needed to fight to be considered the real champ. He one the belt, then beat up on mostly mediocre fighters for 6 years.
It's also almost impossible to compare Shane to Benny Leonard. He was in such an earlier era. It's not even like Robinson, where we have a good amount of decent tape on him.
I just don't care that Shane didn't unify at 135. He had nothing to prove in that division at the time. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, and all the clamor was for him to fight Oscar. Whitaker has real opponents, decent beltholters to fight to make unifying worth it. Had there been another beltholder on the level of Azumah Nelson that Mosley ducked, fine, kill him for it, but I don't give a rat's ass that Shane skipped Stevie Johnson to move up to fight Oscar when the whole boxing world was asking for it.
At 135, Shane was a force of nature, and there is only a handful of fighters who could hang with him at that weight - Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker. Maybe old Benny Leonard had more longevity, but doubt he had more talent and skill than Shane.
It's like keeping Jim Rice out the baseball of fame because he didn't play long enough to pad his stats. If you are of a certain mindset, he doesn't deserve it because he comes up short in the stats game, but when you use your eyes and your brains, you know he belongs. Everybody new he was the most feared right handed bat in the league for 10 years. You can point to inflated numbers from longer careers, but I look at how dominate you were at the time and your overall skills, and Shane is CLEARLY at best a top 5 LW and no worse than top 10.
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.
Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!
Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.
Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!
I agree that Duran could do it all and I'm not saying that Shane is ahead of Duran. Keep in mind, that Duran won the belt before alphabet soup, so he didn't have the problem of having lesser guys out there than he needed to fight to be considered the real champ. He one the belt, then beat up on mostly mediocre fighters for 6 years.
It's also almost impossible to compare Shane to Benny Leonard. He was in such an earlier era. It's not even like Robinson, where we have a good amount of decent tape on him.
I just don't care that Shane didn't unify at 135. He had nothing to prove in that division at the time. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, and all the clamor was for him to fight Oscar. Whitaker has real opponents, decent beltholters to fight to make unifying worth it. Had there been another beltholder on the level of Azumah Nelson that Mosley ducked, fine, kill him for it, but I don't give a rat's ass that Shane skipped Stevie Johnson to move up to fight Oscar when the whole boxing world was asking for it.
At 135, Shane was a force of nature, and there is only a handful of fighters who could hang with him at that weight - Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker. Maybe old Benny Leonard had more longevity, but doubt he had more talent and skill than Shane.
It's like keeping Jim Rice out the baseball of fame because he didn't play long enough to pad his stats. If you are of a certain mindset, he doesn't deserve it because he comes up short in the stats game, but when you use your eyes and your brains, you know he belongs. Everybody new he was the most feared right handed bat in the league for 10 years. You can point to inflated numbers from longer careers, but I look at how dominate you were at the time and your overall skills, and Shane is CLEARLY at best a top 5 LW and no worse than top 10.
Take a look at Mosleys challenges if you want to see mediocre... Gomez, Ceballos, Ruiz, Morales, Johnson, Brown... Leija & Molina weren't prime.
When ranking ATG's in a weight class from different eras you have to look at their overall body of work. You should do some research on Leonard you might be surprised his numbers are amazing! Over 200 fights & just 5 loses. 3 of those loses came in his 1st year as a pro. 1 in his last fight. The other was a dq to Jack Britton for the 147 pound championship. Leonard fought the best lightweights & welterweights around & was winning. Leonard fought everyone & is one of the greatest fighters P4P ever!
You say you don't care about Mosley not unifying & had nothing to prove but he had everything to prove if he wanted to be considered among the best 135's ever. That's what he had to prove. (Mike Tyson seemed head & shoulders above Douglas but we know what happened there, thats why they fight the fights!).
I've never said Mosley does not belong in the hall of fame, but IMO he does belong in the top 10 greatest lightweights ever. I'd rate him about 13th. As I said in a previous post ability wise he belongs with those guys but his credentials don't stack up to the other guys. Mosley's lightweight legacy isn't legendary. It's good!
Putting Mosley in the top 5 is insulting to Gans & Williams. Putting Mosley in the top 10 based on what he achieved at 135 just shows you need to do some research on guys like Brown (an even greater lightweight once he won the title), Ortiz (who fought every credible challenger available), Canzoneri (1 ko loss in 175 fights), Montgomery (Williams & Jack triangle, those six fights represented the Bobcat at his very best), Jack (fought more main events at Madison Square Garden than any other fighter), Ambers (fought the best lightweights around), Welsh (won newspaper decisions over the great Benny Leonard). These guys have got legendary lightweight legacies. Not just good ones!!!
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!
Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.
Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!
I agree that Duran could do it all and I'm not saying that Shane is ahead of Duran. Keep in mind, that Duran won the belt before alphabet soup, so he didn't have the problem of having lesser guys out there than he needed to fight to be considered the real champ. He one the belt, then beat up on mostly mediocre fighters for 6 years.
It's also almost impossible to compare Shane to Benny Leonard. He was in such an earlier era. It's not even like Robinson, where we have a good amount of decent tape on him.
I just don't care that Shane didn't unify at 135. He had nothing to prove in that division at the time. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, and all the clamor was for him to fight Oscar. Whitaker has real opponents, decent beltholters to fight to make unifying worth it. Had there been another beltholder on the level of Azumah Nelson that Mosley ducked, fine, kill him for it, but I don't give a rat's ass that Shane skipped Stevie Johnson to move up to fight Oscar when the whole boxing world was asking for it.
At 135, Shane was a force of nature, and there is only a handful of fighters who could hang with him at that weight - Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker. Maybe old Benny Leonard had more longevity, but doubt he had more talent and skill than Shane.
It's like keeping Jim Rice out the baseball of fame because he didn't play long enough to pad his stats. If you are of a certain mindset, he doesn't deserve it because he comes up short in the stats game, but when you use your eyes and your brains, you know he belongs. Everybody new he was the most feared right handed bat in the league for 10 years. You can point to inflated numbers from longer careers, but I look at how dominate you were at the time and your overall skills, and Shane is CLEARLY at best a top 5 LW and no worse than top 10.
Take a look at Mosleys challenges if you want to see mediocre... Gomez, Ceballos, Ruiz, Morales, Johnson, Brown... Leija & Molina weren't prime.
When ranking ATG's in a weight class from different eras you have to look at their overall body of work. You should do some research on Leonard you might be surprised his numbers are amazing! Over 200 fights & just 5 loses. 3 of those loses came in his 1st year as a pro. 1 in his last fight. The other was a dq to Jack Britton for the 147 pound championship. Leonard fought the best lightweights & welterweights around & was winning. Leonard fought everyone & is one of the greatest fighters P4P ever!
You say you don't care about Mosley not unifying & had nothing to prove but he had everything to prove if he wanted to be considered among the best 135's ever. That's what he had to prove. (Mike Tyson seemed head & shoulders above Douglas but we know what happened there, thats why they fight the fights!).
I've never said Mosley does not belong in the hall of fame, but IMO he does belong in the top 10 greatest lightweights ever. I'd rate him about 13th. As I said in a previous post ability wise he belongs with those guys but his credentials don't stack up to the other guys. Mosley's lightweight legacy isn't legendary. It's good!
Putting Mosley in the top 5 is insulting to Gans & Williams. Putting Mosley in the top 10 based on what he achieved at 135 just shows you need to do some research on guys like Brown (an even greater lightweight once he won the title), Ortiz (who fought every credible challenger available), Canzoneri (1 ko loss in 175 fights), Montgomery (Williams & Jack triangle, those six fights represented the Bobcat at his very best), Jack (fought more main events at Madison Square Garden than any other fighter), Ambers (fought the best lightweights around), Welsh (won newspaper decisions over the great Benny Leonard). These guys have got legendary lightweight legacies. Not just good ones!!!
So where do you rate RJJ compared to other great LHW's. He must be way behind Tommy Loughran on your card? Behind Archie Moore, too. Jones must be way behind Calzaghe at 168 on your card, too. That's fine, if you see things that way, but that's basically the argument you are making. Fair enough, but I see things through different lenses.
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
haha and now wat do u think of mosley after destruction of mararito
Re: The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.
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Originally Posted by
deadlypete
haha and now wat do u think of mosley after destruction of mararito
I think people should listen to this guy more
Originally posted by Bilbo
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I really hope Sugar Shane keeps fighting a while longer, he can more than hold his own in the welterweight division.
His performance against Cotto was better than most probably give him credit for, he lost most of the middle rounds but came back strong at the end and as Kellerman said it was Mosely exerting his will over Cotto in those final rounds rather than the other way around.
We should also remember that prior to that fight he knocked out Vargas and whupped Louis Collazo.
He's still got loads to offer, even at this advanced stage.
I'd pick him to beat any weltwerweight outside of Floyd and Cotto. Guys like Margarito, Williams and Quintana Shane would have an excellent chance to beat and that alone makes me hope he stays in the division a while longer.
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