No matter who he beats, can calzaghe be the lbs4lbs greatest?

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Early in his career Mayweather could be viewed as one of the premier punches in his division and even today, if there is a fighter who can stop you at Welterweight it would be Floyd. So I agree with you there Pride.

I also agree that Pacquiao has been polished by Roach.
Many including myself have taken a dim view of some of Roach's mannorisms before fights (abandoning fighters) but he has worked well for Pacquiao.

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Yeah, Roach pisses me off with his Mercinary ways of late. I give Roach credit for polishing Pac but he was already such a tremendous athlete before he ended up at the Wildcard, I don't give him all of it.

I think Roach is a good trainer but not as good as people give him credit for.

He, for some reason thinks he can jump in with a fighter 6 weeks before a fight and turn mold him into what he wants.

He's not Jesus Christ. It takes top level trainers years to get to know a fighter and it irks me that he takes exhorbidant amounts of money to take a fighter on short notice and leaves his stable waiting in the wings...

This is not the type of person I would want training me... a friggin mercenary...

He says him and Pac are like best friends and Roach is even a father figure... It's cuz it's his meal ticket. He has very little loyalty to fighters...

You don't have the guys like Cus and Dundee anymore that will BE THERE nomatter what kind of shit goes down.

Roach gets a phonecall from Delahoya and (not that I blame him a whole lot but he screwed Manfredo) next thing you know Peter is fighting in a world title fight in front of 45000 hostile fans across an ocean from home.... Without his security blanket. He lost alot of my respect April 7th 2007.

That's just me though:cool:

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Originally Posted by buhlestnoble

Fair play hitmandonny your entitled to your view and I cant really prove anything against it but I don’t really agree that calzaghe hasn’t really been punching since late 1990s. Changing his technique and saying this is why he doesn’t KO anymore certainly isn’t something I have heard joe talk about often if not at all. But the stats do show more Kos early in his career although I believe this was because generally the standard of opponent was lower.

On the p4p list calzaghe moves ahead of pacquiao on my list to no 2 if he beats Hopkins and certainly if he fights and beats say pavlik

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Well my belief was primarily founded after the Ashira bout.
Calzaghe started very strong and the commentators speculated that he wanted an early night. He punched very conventionally and looked like he was going to finish early until the break in the hand. After that he trew only the right hand.

After that fight there was an interview with Enzo, who said usually they punched differently so as to avoid hand damage.

Actually now that I think of it, Enzo spends so long teaching his boxers proper punching technique (with the shoulder) he would be rather annoyed at his star pupil for arm punching if they hadn't planned it wouldn't he?

And you may well be right about Calzaghe passing PAC INTO NUMBER 2. iT'S A CLOSE RACE.

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Originally Posted by buhlestnoble

Fair points ICB. Mayweather is top of my p4p too of course. Its interesting that you post his record up though and what strikes me is that to a casual boxing fan there probably aren’t that many big names there. Don’t get me wrong his unbeaten record is 1st class but perhaps equally strong in his argument to be p4p best is the skills he has dazzled us with.

Its interesting though that imo calzaghes record stands up pretty well actually and its growing faster than and certainly catching up with mayweather’s. Some wins over good quality fighters, former respected world champs and this has been validated in many ways by the Kessler victory. But in many ways like mayweather, its been the way that calzaghe has been so dominating in most of his fights, certainly in the big ones that makes him a very strong p4p contender.

On mayweathers opposition you have to admit that apart from de la hoya there isn’t another current legitimate super fighter in his record. Castillo and corrales are very good but not in the de la hoya league. I often think if de la hoya had fought mayweathers opposition (de la hoya started as a superfeather weight like floyd) he probably would have the same unbeaten record and this view leads to interesting questions. Mayweathers recent opposition has been a bit disappointing, he pretty much skipped the light welter weight division entirely and still hasn’t fought any genuine current welterweight champ (baldomir was no undisputed champ).

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn’t achieved and that’s a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class….like Kessler and even lacy who was hugely rated and expected to win. Hatton at welter doesn’t count as he was too small. The closeness of the de la hoya fight in many ways validates my opinion, for me he NEEDS TO FIGHT COTTO before I close the book. As it happens I do think he will win that one and then I agree the door would be pretty much shut on calzaghe but to say that joe cant even make no 2 on the list is crazy!

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Gernaro Hernandez had never been beaten at Super Featherweight and had a win over the great Azumah Nelson, Corrales was also a P4P fighter. Im not really going to break down Mayweather's opposition because i have had this discussion to many times. But IMO Mayweather's opposition is much better than Calzaghe's no question. Fighters like Woodhall, Brewer, Eubank, are decent wins but all 3 of those fighters were shot and Woodhall, Brewer were coming off bad losses, and Eubank was a late replacement. No doubt Calzaghe has beat the best in the division but that doesn't mean its been good opposition though. And sorry bro but i couldn't disagree with you more with your last statement i'll copy and paste it.

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn't achieved and that's a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class.

Totally disagree Corrales was young and an unbeaten champion. Plus he was in the top 10 P4P rankings i believe he was ranked 7th or something like that. Most experts had that 50-50 match up and Mayweather just destroyed Corrales flooring him x5 times.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by buhlestnoble

Fair points ICB. Mayweather is top of my p4p too of course. Its interesting that you post his record up though and what strikes me is that to a casual boxing fan there probably aren’t that many big names there. Don’t get me wrong his unbeaten record is 1st class but perhaps equally strong in his argument to be p4p best is the skills he has dazzled us with.

Its interesting though that imo calzaghes record stands up pretty well actually and its growing faster than and certainly catching up with mayweather’s. Some wins over good quality fighters, former respected world champs and this has been validated in many ways by the Kessler victory. But in many ways like mayweather, its been the way that calzaghe has been so dominating in most of his fights, certainly in the big ones that makes him a very strong p4p contender.

On mayweathers opposition you have to admit that apart from de la hoya there isn’t another current legitimate super fighter in his record. Castillo and corrales are very good but not in the de la hoya league. I often think if de la hoya had fought mayweathers opposition (de la hoya started as a superfeather weight like floyd) he probably would have the same unbeaten record and this view leads to interesting questions. Mayweathers recent opposition has been a bit disappointing, he pretty much skipped the light welter weight division entirely and still hasn’t fought any genuine current welterweight champ (baldomir was no undisputed champ).

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn’t achieved and that’s a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class….like Kessler and even lacy who was hugely rated and expected to win. Hatton at welter doesn’t count as he was too small. The closeness of the de la hoya fight in many ways validates my opinion, for me he NEEDS TO FIGHT COTTO before I close the book. As it happens I do think he will win that one and then I agree the door would be pretty much shut on calzaghe but to say that joe cant even make no 2 on the list is crazy!

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Gernaro Hernandez had never been beaten at Super Featherweight and had a win over the great Azumah Nelson, Corrales was also a P4P fighter. Im not really going to break down Mayweather's opposition because i have had this discussion to many times. But IMO Mayweather's opposition is much better than Calzaghe's no question. Fighters like Woodhall, Brewer, Eubank, are decent wins but all 3 of those fighters were shot and Woodhall, Brewer were coming off bad losses, and Eubank was a late replacement. No doubt Calzaghe has beat the best in the division but that doesn't mean its been good opposition though. And sorry bro but i couldn't disagree with you more with your last statement i'll copy and paste it.

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn't achieved and that's a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class.

Totally disagree Corrales was young and an unbeaten champion. Plus he was in the top 10 P4P rankings i believe he was ranked 7th or something like that. Most experts had that 50-50 match up and Mayweather just destroyed Corrales flooring him x5 times.

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YES ICE I DONT THINK IN THE FUTURE PEOPLE WILL REGARD KESSLER AS THE SAME CLASS AS CORRALES . CALZAGHE IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME BREATH AS MAYWEATHER.
HES FOUGHT IN A WEAK DIVISION FOR 10 YEARS.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by buhlestnoble

Fair points ICB. Mayweather is top of my p4p too of course. Its interesting that you post his record up though and what strikes me is that to a casual boxing fan there probably aren’t that many big names there. Don’t get me wrong his unbeaten record is 1st class but perhaps equally strong in his argument to be p4p best is the skills he has dazzled us with.

Its interesting though that imo calzaghes record stands up pretty well actually and its growing faster than and certainly catching up with mayweather’s. Some wins over good quality fighters, former respected world champs and this has been validated in many ways by the Kessler victory. But in many ways like mayweather, its been the way that calzaghe has been so dominating in most of his fights, certainly in the big ones that makes him a very strong p4p contender.

On mayweathers opposition you have to admit that apart from de la hoya there isn’t another current legitimate super fighter in his record. Castillo and corrales are very good but not in the de la hoya league. I often think if de la hoya had fought mayweathers opposition (de la hoya started as a superfeather weight like floyd) he probably would have the same unbeaten record and this view leads to interesting questions. Mayweathers recent opposition has been a bit disappointing, he pretty much skipped the light welter weight division entirely and still hasn’t fought any genuine current welterweight champ (baldomir was no undisputed champ).

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn’t achieved and that’s a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class….like Kessler and even lacy who was hugely rated and expected to win. Hatton at welter doesn’t count as he was too small. The closeness of the de la hoya fight in many ways validates my opinion, for me he NEEDS TO FIGHT COTTO before I close the book. As it happens I do think he will win that one and then I agree the door would be pretty much shut on calzaghe but to say that joe cant even make no 2 on the list is crazy!

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Gernaro Hernandez had never been beaten at Super Featherweight and had a win over the great Azumah Nelson, Corrales was also a P4P fighter. Im not really going to break down Mayweather's opposition because i have had this discussion to many times. But IMO Mayweather's opposition is much better than Calzaghe's no question. Fighters like Woodhall, Brewer, Eubank, are decent wins but all 3 of those fighters were shot and Woodhall, Brewer were coming off bad losses, and Eubank was a late replacement. No doubt Calzaghe has beat the best in the division but that doesn't mean its been good opposition though. And sorry bro but i couldn't disagree with you more with your last statement i'll copy and paste it.

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn't achieved and that's a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class.

Totally disagree Corrales was young and an unbeaten champion. Plus he was in the top 10 P4P rankings i believe he was ranked 7th or something like that. Most experts had that 50-50 match up and Mayweather just destroyed Corrales flooring him x5 times.

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good post, I totally agree.

Corrales was a very good fighter he had one respected title going into the mayweather fight and lost several times post mayweather including one at the same division that mayweather beat him in, superfeatherweight against casamayor. Kessler on the other hand is very underated and had WBA and WBC belts as well as a fantastic unbeaten pro and brilliant amateur record. Its very tough for non american fighters to gain the respect they deserve, if kessler was american, imagine the hype, rememeber the hype over lacy....kessler would be the new saviour of american boxing.

However until kessler proves himself over the next few years we cant really judge him. Time will tell, I think kessler is better than taylor, pavlik etc and he will prove that in the future. Taylor was ranked very high p4p until pavlik came along and so when kessler beats those guys he will certainly be regarded better than corrales.

Supermiddleweight is now arguable the most competitive in boxing and if kessler emerges top of the pile which i think he will, calzaghe will get his due respect from those in the know but probably not from the very many haters.

As i have said i dont believe calzaghe is better than mayweather p4p yet and he probably wont be able to, mayweather is proving to be one of the best fighters of all time p4p so theres no shame in that BUT that doesnt mean he cant rank alongside the likes of jones jr etc amongst the very best middleweights

All i can say is bring on bhop vs calzaghe and bring on kessler vs miranda etc

I actually agree that Kessler probably will come out on top of the Super Middleweights if he hasn't lost that confidence. I think he takes both Pavlik and Taylor.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

I actually agree that Kessler probably will come out on top of the Super Middleweights if he hasn't lost that confidence. I think he takes both Pavlik and Taylor.

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Pavlik's gonna put an expiration date on that chin as it hasn't been truly tested yet and Taylor is the same size as Kessler and is as skilled a boxer as Kess is IMO.

Pavlik beats Kessler and The Taylor fight would be a toss up for me.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

YES ICE I DONT THINK IN THE FUTURE PEOPLE WILL REGARD KESSLER AS THE SAME CLASS AS CORRALES . CALZAGHE IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME BREATH AS MAYWEATHER.
HES FOUGHT IN A WEAK DIVISION FOR 10 YEARS.

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And this is where we totally disagree.

You say that calzaghe is not close to mayweather...yet i specifically wrote IF HE BEATS HOPKINS, PAVLIK AND THE WINNER OF THE CURRENT 4 OTHER LIGHT HEAVIES HAVING THEIR LIL ELIMINATOR RIGHT NOW.

That means he goes over to usa and fights their 3 best champs at light heavy and pavlik presumabely at super middle and beats them all (if he does).

So you are saying that someone who retires UNBEATEN, UNDISPUTED CHAMP WITH ALL BELTS AT SUPER MIDDLE AND LIGHT HEAVY FOR 12 YEARS, who has beaten the likes of eubank, lacy, kessler, hopkins, tarver and pavlik (because i think he will come to the usa and beat all of the american champs, although of course i might be wrong, we will have to wait and see though).

Your saying that this person does not rank up there with mayweather?

Sorry guys, personally i feel kessler will dominate over miranda, taylor, wright and dominate any other fighter he faces, i think kessler will easily become undisputed super middle champ when joe has retired and move upto light heavy to be a champ at light heavy also.

One thing i cant understand is the fuss people make over roy jones. WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE SLAMMING HIM for another 'tune up fight' against 'bayer'? Kessler knocked the crap out of bayer.

Why the hell is jones wanting to fight bayer, that to me is pathetic.

Roy jones was allegedly at his peak when he beat ruiz and beat tarver hte first time...yet his rematch with tarver (where he gets clear cut ko'd) was only 6 months later??? What the hell? How can someone suddenly be 'past it' after 6 months?

So when hopkins loses, the excuses will be 'Calzaghe is not a great fighter, he just fought a 'past it' hopkins'.

When pavlik is ko'd or battered (his style is perfect for joe to use his speed and combo's against) the excuse will be 'pavlik is moving up and is too inexperienced'.

When calzaghe beats dawson the excuses will be 'hes been overhyped aka jeff lacy was, we (the american media) have overhyped him too much, calzaghe isnt that good, its just dawson was actually a bum that we overhyped'.

If calzaghe beats tarver 'tarver is past it now'.

If woods beats tarver in the eliminator fight then faces calzaghe and calzaghe beats woods then the excuse is 'woods is a crap fighter anyway' (yet woods was probably the best fighter at light heavy that jones ever beat).

If calzaghe beats johnson 'oh hes past it'.

Basically anything he does, even if he beats the whole lot will be met with excuses...and im sorry guys but if calzaghe were to face AND BEAT...

Tarver, johnson, pavlik, hopkins, dawson and woods...then hes easily best p4p out there.

The whole fact (and this is what i believe), ive been watching joe box now for about 6 years! JOE ISNT AT HIS PEAK ANYMORE EITHER! People say his next bout is a 'prime calzaghe vs a past it hopkins', well hopkins doesnt look past it to me, a win against tarver and winky both at light heavy? Hopkins doesnt say hes past it either, he says hes game!

I think that a lot of people dont realise just how special calzaghe is and love to make excuses like 'he doesnt punch straight' HAHAHHAA, HAHAHA, to me that is so stupid, 'he doesnt punch straight' lol...have you been watching calzaghe for years? Calzaghe punches EVERYWHERE! He has in fighting, out fighting, scrapping, bossing and counter fighting, exceptional stamina and no matter what people say he has good power (although not the best)...how can anyone say this guy doesnt have good physical ability? His physical ability is fantastic.

The arguments about his hands are very weak arguments indeed. A great boxer is one who can ADAPT, one who has ring craft and can adapt his game, the fact that calzaghe has adapted his game just shows how clever a boxer he is.

As for p4p...all i know is this. IF calzaghe comes to america and BEATS every us champ that stands in his path, tarver, jones, hopkins, dawson, pavlik etc as far as im concerned there are NO excuses, he is the best...he proves he is the best by BEATING EVERYONE FOR 12 WHOLE YEARS!

Will he do it though? Who knows...we will have to wait and see.

To say that he can never be p4p the best is silly though...lets suppose he challenges samuel peter to a fight? (just theoretically) AND HE BEATS PETER??? Peter is a far superior heavyweight to ruiz (who jones beat)...so your saying that even if he beats peter (im not saying he would, this is hypothetical) then you still wont give him the p4p number 1?

So imagine this, calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson, peter and pavlik all in usa...and people still dont give him the number 1 p4p spot? That would be ridiculous...truly the sign of a hater.

I agree that as things stand at the moment mayweather is p4p number 1. I dont particularly care for p4p as i dont think it means much anyway because someone gave the example of 'scaling fighters to the same weight and size then seeing their skill and fight'...that is totally impossible, you cant do that because scaled upwards fighters would lose speed and stamina (its simple physiology, as the limbs get longer the fulcrum is further from the lever meaning more energy required to throw punches/move) to say that they would be exactly the same fighter but just bigger and at a bigger weight is nonsense...ie imagine a 20 stone 6ft 10 paquiao moving at the same speed he does but with double the power of tyson...is that possible? NO!

If you have been following calzaghe fight for years now like i have then youve seen he is the COMPLETE fighter...he has not fought in the states yet.

I believe that IF he comes to the states and dominates over EVERY american champ he faces, then sorry guys, there are no EXCUSES! He is the best fighter in the world (and joint with mayweather if mayweather beats cotto).

Of course though...should calzaghe beat hopkins, dawson and pavlik...BUT floyd loses to de la hoya or cotto, OOOOOHHHH!!! That would technically make calzaghe p4p number 1 which i know would anger many people and of course they will still refuse to accept this.

Anyway, forgetting p4p as its all hypothetical, i believe calzaghe will come to the states and show the world that he can beat everyone in the whole world.

It will then raise massive doubts of why roy jones did not fight calzaghe? I mean its pointless jones and calzaghe fighting now because joe would most likely ko roy, but roy is way past it now (we all know this) so theres no point them fighting.

Will calzaghe come to america and beat all the usa champs? I believe he will...maybe he will, maybe he wont, we'll have to see.

But what i do know is that the excuse makers and the haters will be there regardless of his performances.

Thanks everyone for participating in the thread, THIS IS A GREAT FORUM WITH GREAT DISCUSSION. ;):)

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Originally Posted by LondonBB

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

YES ICE I DONT THINK IN THE FUTURE PEOPLE WILL REGARD KESSLER AS THE SAME CLASS AS CORRALES . CALZAGHE IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME BREATH AS MAYWEATHER.
HES FOUGHT IN A WEAK DIVISION FOR 10 YEARS.

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And this is where we totally disagree.

You say that calzaghe is not close to mayweather...yet i specifically wrote IF HE BEATS HOPKINS, PAVLIK AND THE WINNER OF THE CURRENT 4 OTHER LIGHT HEAVIES HAVING THEIR LIL ELIMINATOR RIGHT NOW.

That means he goes over to usa and fights their 3 best champs at light heavy and pavlik presumabely at super middle and beats them all (if he does).

So you are saying that someone who retires UNBEATEN, UNDISPUTED CHAMP WITH ALL BELTS AT SUPER MIDDLE AND LIGHT HEAVY FOR 12 YEARS, who has beaten the likes of eubank, lacy, kessler, hopkins, tarver and pavlik (because i think he will come to the usa and beat all of the american champs, although of course i might be wrong, we will have to wait and see though).

Your saying that this person does not rank up there with mayweather?

Sorry guys, personally i feel kessler will dominate over miranda, taylor, wright and dominate any other fighter he faces, i think kessler will easily become undisputed super middle champ when joe has retired and move upto light heavy to be a champ at light heavy also.

One thing i cant understand is the fuss people make over roy jones. WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE SLAMMING HIM for another 'tune up fight' against 'bayer'? Kessler knocked the crap out of bayer.

Why the hell is jones wanting to fight bayer, that to me is pathetic.

Roy jones was allegedly at his peak when he beat ruiz and beat tarver hte first time...yet his rematch with tarver (where he gets clear cut ko'd) was only 6 months later??? What the hell? How can someone suddenly be 'past it' after 6 months?

So when hopkins loses, the excuses will be 'Calzaghe is not a great fighter, he just fought a 'past it' hopkins'.

When pavlik is ko'd or battered (his style is perfect for joe to use his speed and combo's against) the excuse will be 'pavlik is moving up and is too inexperienced'.

When calzaghe beats dawson the excuses will be 'hes been overhyped aka jeff lacy was, we (the american media) have overhyped him too much, calzaghe isnt that good, its just dawson was actually a bum that we overhyped'.

If calzaghe beats tarver 'tarver is past it now'.

If woods beats tarver in the eliminator fight then faces calzaghe and calzaghe beats woods then the excuse is 'woods is a crap fighter anyway' (yet woods was probably the best fighter at light heavy that jones ever beat).

If calzaghe beats johnson 'oh hes past it'.

Basically anything he does, even if he beats the whole lot will be met with excuses...and im sorry guys but if calzaghe were to face AND BEAT...

Tarver, johnson, pavlik, hopkins, dawson and woods...then hes easily best p4p out there.

The whole fact (and this is what i believe), ive been watching joe box now for about 6 years! JOE ISNT AT HIS PEAK ANYMORE EITHER! People say his next bout is a 'prime calzaghe vs a past it hopkins', well hopkins doesnt look past it to me, a win against tarver and winky both at light heavy? Hopkins doesnt say hes past it either, he says hes game!

I think that a lot of people dont realise just how special calzaghe is and love to make excuses like 'he doesnt punch straight' HAHAHHAA, HAHAHA, to me that is so stupid, 'he doesnt punch straight' lol...have you been watching calzaghe for years? Calzaghe punches EVERYWHERE! He has in fighting, out fighting, scrapping, bossing and counter fighting, exceptional stamina and no matter what people say he has good power (although not the best)...how can anyone say this guy doesnt have good physical ability? His physical ability is fantastic.

The arguments about his hands are very weak arguments indeed. A great boxer is one who can ADAPT, one who has ring craft and can adapt his game, the fact that calzaghe has adapted his game just shows how clever a boxer he is.

As for p4p...all i know is this. IF calzaghe comes to america and BEATS every us champ that stands in his path, tarver, jones, hopkins, dawson, pavlik etc as far as im concerned there are NO excuses, he is the best...he proves he is the best by BEATING EVERYONE FOR 12 WHOLE YEARS!

Will he do it though? Who knows...we will have to wait and see.

To say that he can never be p4p the best is silly though...lets suppose he challenges samuel peter to a fight? (just theoretically) AND HE BEATS PETER??? Peter is a far superior heavyweight to ruiz (who jones beat)...so your saying that even if he beats peter (im not saying he would, this is hypothetical) then you still wont give him the p4p number 1?

So imagine this, calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson, peter and pavlik all in usa...and people still dont give him the number 1 p4p spot? That would be ridiculous...truly the sign of a hater.

I agree that as things stand at the moment mayweather is p4p number 1. I dont particularly care for p4p as i dont think it means much anyway because someone gave the example of 'scaling fighters to the same weight and size then seeing their skill and fight'...that is totally impossible, you cant do that because scaled upwards fighters would lose speed and stamina (its simple physiology, as the limbs get longer the fulcrum is further from the lever meaning more energy required to throw punches/move) to say that they would be exactly the same fighter but just bigger and at a bigger weight is nonsense...ie imagine a 20 stone 6ft 10 paquiao moving at the same speed he does but with double the power of tyson...is that possible? NO!

If you have been following calzaghe fight for years now like i have then youve seen he is the COMPLETE fighter...he has not fought in the states yet.

I believe that IF he comes to the states and dominates over EVERY american champ he faces, then sorry guys, there are no EXCUSES! He is the best fighter in the world (and joint with mayweather if mayweather beats cotto).

Of course though...should calzaghe beat hopkins, dawson and pavlik...BUT floyd loses to de la hoya or cotto, OOOOOHHHH!!! That would technically make calzaghe p4p number 1 which i know would anger many people and of course they will still refuse to accept this.

Anyway, forgetting p4p as its all hypothetical, i believe calzaghe will come to the states and show the world that he can beat everyone in the whole world.

It will then raise massive doubts of why roy jones did not fight calzaghe? I mean its pointless jones and calzaghe fighting now because joe would most likely ko roy, but roy is way past it now (we all know this) so theres no point them fighting.

Will calzaghe come to america and beat all the usa champs? I believe he will...maybe he will, maybe he wont, we'll have to see.

But what i do know is that the excuse makers and the haters will be there regardless of his performances.

Thanks everyone for participating in the thread, THIS IS A GREAT FORUM WITH GREAT DISCUSSION. ;):)

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The way your talking though is like Mayweather isn't going to be fighting when Calzaghe is fighting those names you said, if were playing that game then say Mayweather beats ODLH again, Cotto, and Williams or Mosley. Then will Calzaghe still be rated higher than Mayweather in your mind ??

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Originally Posted by ICB

The way your talking though is like Mayweather isn't going to be fighting when Calzaghe is fighting those names you said, if were playing that game then say Mayweather beats ODLH again, Cotto, and Williams or Mosley. Then will Calzaghe still be rated higher than Mayweather in your mind ??

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Great point mate!

As you say, should mayweather beat say dlh, cotto and mosley then i WOULD rate him higher than joe c. It would be mayweather 1st and joe 2nd in my opinion.

What is this obsession with p4p though? The fact will remain at supermiddle and light heavy joe c will clean up, be undisputed champ of 2 divisions with opponents from everywhere in the world (should he be triumphant in the states).

Thats all that needs to be said...mayweathers achievements (should he keep winning) will probably be greater than joe's but in the end they are both easily the best at their partcular weights.

But...lets wait and see...maybe i am wrong and joe will lose, fairplay then i willingly conceed that joe is not top 3 p4p (but probably floating nearer the bottom of the top 10).

What a build up this is, gonna be an exciting line up of boxing for the next year i think...for us all to enjoy!!!:)

P4P i'd back Calzaghe to beat Pac all day long.. and he's generally the 2 man, right?

So Calzaghe has a case for being P4P 2.. according to Fenster.

He's not though because i'd back Guzman to beat Calzaghe P4P (along with a good few other fighters) so I can't rate him in the 2 spot.

Get me?

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Originally Posted by Taeth

There is nothing Calzaghe has done or can do IMO that will make him deserve p4p supremacy. He is a great fighter, but his fight with Kessler was a lot closer than anyone would care to admint(especially if Kessler couldn't spar for the weeks leading up to the fight), and Bernard is going to be 43. Those two names along with Chris Eubanks make up his credible opponents, but only Kessler was anywhere near his prime. Now Joe, even though he is 35, is still near his peak like Hopkins was when he was 35, however Bernard isn't anywhere near his peak anymore, and he can't fight at the pace he used to in order to keep up with Calzaghe, and beat him with superior skill. Fighting Chad Dawson who is still green at the top level doesn't mean anything to me because he would do the same thing he did against Kessler which is fight at a pace Dawson isn't used to. Regardless of all this even Glen Johnson wins, I doubt Calzaghe can beat him as impressively as Hopkins did when they fought, I doubt he will ever fight the same resume HOpkins has foughten (Trinidad, Wright, ODLH, RJJ, Johnson, Tarver, etc.) or Floyd by the time he is finished.

All in all Calzaghe isn't as good as Floyd, if they were the same weight, which p4p tries to mimic, there is no way Calzaghe would beat the much faster, harder hitting(at least compared this version JOe), straighter punching Mayweather. IMO He would follow Mayweather around the ring who would use his footspeed to keep away, then Mayweather would counter him with right hands he, Calzaghe, would be too slow to avoid. Roy Jones Jr would beat him to the punch all night, and that fight wouldn't last the distance unless Roy would allow it do, but Roy, in his prime, would have caught Calzaghe in those inbetween place that nobody else can, and Calzaghe wouldn't be able to cope with his, Roy's, reaction speed or his hand/footspeed.

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lets be real floyd wouldnt treat joe like he did hatton(like a bitch)

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Originally Posted by LondonBB

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Originally Posted by ICB

The way your talking though is like Mayweather isn't going to be fighting when Calzaghe is fighting those names you said, if were playing that game then say Mayweather beats ODLH again, Cotto, and Williams or Mosley. Then will Calzaghe still be rated higher than Mayweather in your mind ??

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Great point mate!

As you say, should mayweather beat say dlh, cotto and mosley then i WOULD rate him higher than joe c. It would be mayweather 1st and joe 2nd in my opinion.

What is this obsession with p4p though? The fact will remain at supermiddle and light heavy joe c will clean up, be undisputed champ of 2 divisions with opponents from everywhere in the world (should he be triumphant in the states).

Thats all that needs to be said...mayweathers achievements (should he keep winning) will probably be greater than joe's but in the end they are both easily the best at their partcular weights.

But...lets wait and see...maybe i am wrong and joe will lose, fairplay then i willingly conceed that joe is not top 3 p4p (but probably floating nearer the bottom of the top 10).

What a build up this is, gonna be an exciting line up of boxing for the next year i think...for us all to enjoy!!!:)

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Yes ifs and buts dont get you to number 1 p4p , and the Hopkins fight is not going to be a walk in the park for Calzaghe.
so as i said Calzaghe isnt even close to Mayweather or Pacman. HIS remume is a joke compared to those guys.

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Originally Posted by LondonBB

Firstly id like to say hi to everyone as this is my first post :)

I was recommended to this forum by a friend who says it is the most respected forum for boxing.

I have been looking at other forums which i wont mention but i have noticed something that seems very apparent.

It seems that joe calzaghe has a lot of haters, particularly stateside. I must also say he appears to have a lot of fans stateside aswell :)

But i wondered something, from looking at performances and also records and future fights...IF calzaghe beats hopkins, then waits a while (whilst the winner of johnson v dawson faces the winner of tarver v woods) and calzaghe then fights the overall champ of those bouts AND LETS SAY HE WINS which would make him totally undefeated, and undisputed champ at 2 divisions. Probably the 2 hardest divisions in boxing today...THEN he has one final fight and it is against pavlik at super middle weight...calzaghe comes down from light heavy to face pavlik and beats pavlik (i think he would, seeing as pavliks style is almost taylor made for joe to break, nothing away from pavlik as he is a great fighter who i like a lot)...so lets say IF calzaghe does this, WILL HE EVEN WIN THE RESPECT OF THE HATERS? I mean surely by being totally unbeaten, facing EVERY great fighter there has been in his divisions (aprt from jones who was not willing to fight calzaghe, and nowdays there is no point them fighting because joe would win comfortably but everyone will scream 'but jones is past it'...and yes he is past it, so theres no point).

IF this scenario occurs and joe ends his career being undefeated and undisputed champ of the both super middles and light heavies, having beaten the likes of mitchell, lacy, kessler, reid, eubank, hopkins, pavlik and dawson/woods/tarver/johnson (the overall winner of that match up)...plus been champ for 12 years!

Will he be rated the bet lbs4lbs fighter in the world?

Of course i have said 'IF', because it is possible that he might not be able to do that. Myself, as a british fan (you can tell by the name lol) believes that he is CAPABLE of doing it, because i have been watching joe for years, years before he came to the spotlight by his match up with lacy.

I understand why he is an unknown entity up till now in the us because he hasnt fought there, ALSO it is NECESSARY for him to fight and win big fights stateside for him to be called the best lbs4lbs fighter, i fully understand that. BUT i think that by beating hopkins, pavlik and dawson on us soil...he proves he is the champ without any doubt! IF he does that;)

When i compare him to the likes of roy jones, i look at jones now (notably not as good as he was in his prime), jones doesnt seem to be taking any flack for picking bayer to fight??? What if calzaghe choose to fight bayer? He would have people screaming at him that hes a p*ssy, would he not?

Why does jones want to fight bayer, when kessler ko'd bayer easily? WHY DOES JONES NOT WANT TO FIGHT KESSLER???

Jones in his prime was an incredible talent. However if calzaghe goes on to beat hopkins, pavlik and dawson (lets say dawson becomes champ of the 4 light heavies battling it out atm)...then with a pro record of being unbeaten, undisputed champ at 2 divisions and champ for 12 years! Taking out EVERY other great fighter who stood in his path, fighting all over the world in europe and stateside (after the big matchups in the future where it is calzaghes chance to become a complete legendary fighter)...the records put calzaghe above jones in my opinion.

What about yuour opinion (thats why im asking this thread:))...or is it a case of no matter who joe beats, no matter where he beats them, no matter if he is undisputed champ for 20 years lol, no matter if he is undefeated in 80 fights (exaggeration lol;))...there will STILL be people who say 'NO, CALZAGHE IS A SLAPPER, HE IS NOT THE GREATEST, ROY JONES IS BETTER THAN HIM, FLOYD MAYWEATHER IS BETTER' etc etc?

So ive said what i think of jones...a once brilliant fighter (who is known to have avoided joe, for whatever reason), had incredible flair and skill YET people are willing to constantly make excuses for him. Jones beat tarver in 2003, people were saying he was at his peak then...then he loses 6 months later...and the excuse??? 'JONES IS PAST IT':confused::-\

How can jones be past it, only 6 months later? I dont understand? Are people saying that jones was at his 'peak' for 3 years and then suddenly in 6 months he became 'past it'? Id like some opinions on this please guys:)

Whereas if joe calzaghe lets say beats pavlik, beats dawson and then loses to pavlik, will everyone make excuses for calzaghe and say 'thats because hes past it now'...NO...IN MY OPINION THEY WILL LOVE TO SHOUT HIM DOWN AND SAY THAT HE WAS NEVER A PRIME FIGHTER TO BEGIN WITH!

So why does jones get the special treatment? I could be wrong, but its just an observation ive made...like i said, im open minded and welcome any input and opinions:)

Lastly bringing me to mayweather. I believe that CURRENTLY floyd is the number 1 lbs4lbs greatest. However there are still some questions. For him to remain the best, id like to see him face cotto and win (and also beat de la hoya in this upcoming rematch).

IF calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson and pavlik all in the usa...why should he not go above mayweather in the lbs4lbs list? Afterall mayweather did not fight all the fighters in each of his divisions, he has so far not faced cotto, mosely,margerito, tszyu (in the past).

Whilst i think floyd is lbs4lbs number one atm, i have to say that IF joe calzaghe beats hopkins, dawson (or the winner of the light heavy eliminator battle) and pavlik...i think he has claim to be greater than floyd afterall he has NOT AVOIDED ANYONE THROUGHOUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER, IF HE COMES STATESIDE AND BEATS THOSE 3 GREAT CHAMPS, THE BEST THE US HAS.

Alternativelym should mayweather besat de la hoya in the rematch AND face cotto and beat cotto...then mayweather is the lbs4lbs greatest (but you could argue if calzaghe does what i outlined earlier that they would then be joint top together).

So...given the 'IF' that i spoke of. Yes im aware that joe calzaghe might not beat hopkins, pavlik and dawson/tarver/woods/johnson...but if he is the 'great' fighter that i truly believe he is and he does do it...SURELY THIS PUTS HIM AS THE BEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD?

Sorry for the longwinded post lol, but my friend says this is the best forum, thats why i went into so much detail:)

Hopefully this will raise some good discussion. Thanks everyone:)

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Welcome to the site mate - nice thread.

As somebody said previously, JC could beat a prime Ali and still not be percived p4p1 number 1 in a lot of peoples minds. I also agree with Fenster that p4p is all about who would win if you could theoretically make all fighters the same weight reach etc and going by that I could not see JC as p4p number 1 now or anytime soon. For the record he is one of my top 5 fighters ever!