Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting.........
now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
David Telasco i believe ;D
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting.........
now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
David Telasco i believe ;D
geez Jones fought more bums than anyone in boxing history.
Watch Tarver/Jones II now listen to Merchant before the KO:
"Roy isnt in with the local school teacher or the part-time bouncer this opponent is live and Roy.... for the most part has avoided this kind of challenge"
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
;D
Nice choice of words, I'd stake my money on that. Even when he was old he gave Jones something to think about, and he gave James Toney a lot of trouble.
When he was at his peak no one wanted anything to do with him, neither did Eubank, Hearns or Ray Leonard.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chris Nagel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
;D
Nice choice of words, I'd stake my money on that. Even when he was old he gave Jones something to think about, and he gave James Toney a lot of trouble.
When he was at his peak no one wanted anything to do with him, neither did Eubank, Hearns or Ray Leonard.
Jones would still IMO have beaten McCallum even at his best. I like McCallum but Roy was growing into the LHW division and looked very small to Mike yet he still floored him.
As for Eubank. There was no way he would fight McCallum after what he (McCallum) did to Michael Watson. Watson and Eubank were the best 2 british MW/SMW of that IMO. To me they were inseperable in quality and McCallum would have done a similar job on Eubank.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Roy Jones always said respectful things about McCallum when he was a middleweight. In the last edition of boxing news McCallum thanked him for giving him his biggest pay day near the end of his career. He also said he did not respect Hagler for denying him a big money fight and that he sparred with Eubank's and said whilst he would have beaten him but was a strong fighter.
He also said that after beating 2 kronk fighters, after leaving them for denying him a fight with Duran, Manny would not allow Hearns in the same ring with him.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Roy Jones in his prime was a wonderful fighter.
he beat both Toney and Hopkins , and look what they went on to do , a 43 year old Hopkins took Calzaghe to a split verdict , and Hopkins couldnt lay a glove on Roy , same with Toney ,
no fighter of his size ever punched with such speed .
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
I think RJJ had everything apart from 1 thing,he didn't have no killer instinct! I dont think he had the desire to really get his opponents out of there.I think he does in the 2nd Griffen fight and IMO theres no LHW in history that would of went the distance with Roy that night! If Roy had the attitude he had in the 2nd Griffen fight for the whole of his carrer,I think we'd all be talking about him diffrently.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
njackets
I think RJJ had everything apart from 1 thing,he didn't have no killer instinct! I dont think he had the desire to really get his opponents out of there.I think he does in the 2nd Griffen fight and IMO theres no LHW in history that would of went the distance with Roy that night! If Roy had the attitude he had in the 2nd Griffen fight for the whole of his carrer,I think we'd all be talking about him diffrently.
He actually went on record saying that unless they did something to upset him he didn't want to hurt them too bad. I think this attitude came about after what happened to G-Man.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
njackets
I think RJJ had everything apart from 1 thing,he didn't have no killer instinct! I dont think he had the desire to really get his opponents out of there.I think he does in the 2nd Griffen fight and IMO theres no LHW in history that would of went the distance with Roy that night! If Roy had the attitude he had in the 2nd Griffen fight for the whole of his carrer,I think we'd all be talking about him diffrently.
He actually went on record saying that unless they did something to upset him he didn't want to hurt them too bad. I think this attitude came about after what happened to G-Man.
Shooting at the obscure but I remember an interview after a fight with Fermin Chirino and how he was boooo'd when coasting through the fight over 10 rounds.He said pretty much that,hey,Im in here fighting and getting hit & taking chances....They can booo all they want (Not an exact quote Lol).I really think it was from the initial outset....he lost no sleep over a few detractors of his style ;D .
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chris Nagel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
;D
Nice choice of words, I'd stake my money on that. Even when he was old he gave Jones something to think about, and he gave James Toney a lot of trouble.
When he was at his peak no one wanted anything to do with him, neither did Eubank, Hearns or Ray Leonard.
He didn't give Jones anything to think about, he was target practice, pull your head out of your ass. Nobody wanted anything to with Roy either, Calzaghe, Benn, Eubank, Hopkins the second time around, none of them were willing to come over. Not being they couldn't negotiate deals, but because they were scared of Roy JOnes Jr.. Before one of ROy's fights at 168 he told HBO to get a fight for him under his terms which HBO thought they could easily do, but they tried and nobody would fight him.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
David Telasco i believe ;D
geez Jones fought more bums than anyone in boxing history.
Watch Tarver/Jones II now listen to Merchant before the KO:
"Roy isnt in with the local school teacher or the part-time bouncer this opponent is live and Roy.... for the most part has avoided this kind of challenge"
Wow your using the words of the bitterest piece of shit ever, your dumb, and stop trying to prove a point you don't have.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Truth is if Hopkins and Toney could not beat him neither would have Eubanks, Benn or McClellan. I would include Dariuz in that too.
Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
[quote=Taeth;581920]
Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level?
Becasue Mundine actually tries to be Roy Jones while not quite ebing as fast or as powerfull as Roy While Berto i doubt is as fleet footed and has the reflexes Rouy had.
Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot?
Because the only time Zab seems to be fast on his feet is when his jumpin in with a 1-2. And aslo again its an issue of reflexes. Zab is athletic but his reflexes dim quickly. If anything.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it.
Reflex reflex reflex...!!! ;D
Roy was truly Superman.
Ive never considered Roy as a boxing genius, just as a phenomenon ;D
With a Boxing Genius it always a case of them doing what they have to do to win.
With Roy it was almost a case of doing what ever he wanted!
