Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
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Originally Posted by
CGM
IMO the decision to go from 15-12 was somewhat of a kneejerk decision made to satisfy the general public that something was being done. I don't think a whole lot of thought went into the decision, for starters I really doubt they did research to determine the proportion of fatalities that resulted from injuries suffered in rounds 13-15 of title fights. And I rather doubt that this decision saved many lives. Probably there is proportionately more serious injuries and fatalities in non-title fights.
I agree.
I don't think 15 round fights are what led to serious injuries. What leads to injuries are fights that should be stopped but aren't, and that can happen in a 4 round fight or an 8 round fight or a 12 round fight too.
I waver back and forth on the 15 vs. 12 issue. When we think back to the era of 15-rounders, we tend to only think of the classic 15 round fights, and we forget that there were plenty of boring 15 rounders too. There were plenty of 15 rounders where Rounds 13-15 were just two exhausted guys clutching and grabbing each other.
Would I have liked to see Morales-Barrera or Pacquiao-Marquez for 15 rounds? Sure.
But how about Taylor-Spinks or Wlad-Ibragimov... does anyone wish those fights went 15 rounds? It would have just been 9 more minutes of boredom.
Except with the Kim fight, there was no reason to stop the fight. He was fighting back and defending.
Quarry suffered from boxer dementia,Ali has Parkinsons,Frazier has slurred speach
So what's your point? I 'm pretty sure you are against going to 15 rounds. Are you arguing a cause & effect relationship between 15 round fights and all of the cases you have mentioned here? Cause I really am not convinced that there would have been significant less chance of these situations if they had fought 12 round fights. That is the issue.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
IMO the decision to go from 15-12 was somewhat of a kneejerk decision made to satisfy the general public that something was being done. I don't think a whole lot of thought went into the decision, for starters I really doubt they did research to determine the proportion of fatalities that resulted from injuries suffered in rounds 13-15 of title fights. And I rather doubt that this decision saved many lives. Probably there is proportionately more serious injuries and fatalities in non-title fights.
I agree.
I don't think 15 round fights are what led to serious injuries. What leads to injuries are fights that should be stopped but aren't, and that can happen in a 4 round fight or an 8 round fight or a 12 round fight too.
I waver back and forth on the 15 vs. 12 issue. When we think back to the era of 15-rounders, we tend to only think of the classic 15 round fights, and we forget that there were plenty of boring 15 rounders too. There were plenty of 15 rounders where Rounds 13-15 were just two exhausted guys clutching and grabbing each other.
Would I have liked to see Morales-Barrera or Pacquiao-Marquez for 15 rounds? Sure.
But how about Taylor-Spinks or Wlad-Ibragimov... does anyone wish those fights went 15 rounds? It would have just been 9 more minutes of boredom.
Except with the Kim fight, there was no reason to stop the fight. He was fighting back and defending.
Quarry suffered from boxer dementia,Ali has Parkinsons,Frazier has slurred speach
OK, but Jerry Quarry went more than 12 rounds only once in his entire career. I don't see how 15 round fights have anything to do with his health issues.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
I think it would be more interesting if like in the case of a draw like
Marquez /Pac if the ref goes to each corner and asks both sides if they want to go the fifteen.
Well something did happen like that before but not quite like that, Tony Thorton went 12 rounds with Doug DeWitt. And they drawed then they were ordered to go 13 rounds to break the draw.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
I agree.
I don't think 15 round fights are what led to serious injuries. What leads to injuries are fights that should be stopped but aren't, and that can happen in a 4 round fight or an 8 round fight or a 12 round fight too.
I waver back and forth on the 15 vs. 12 issue. When we think back to the era of 15-rounders, we tend to only think of the classic 15 round fights, and we forget that there were plenty of boring 15 rounders too. There were plenty of 15 rounders where Rounds 13-15 were just two exhausted guys clutching and grabbing each other.
Would I have liked to see Morales-Barrera or Pacquiao-Marquez for 15 rounds? Sure.
But how about Taylor-Spinks or Wlad-Ibragimov... does anyone wish those fights went 15 rounds? It would have just been 9 more minutes of boredom.
Except with the Kim fight, there was no reason to stop the fight. He was fighting back and defending.
Quarry suffered from boxer dementia,Ali has Parkinsons,Frazier has slurred speach
So what's your point? I 'm pretty sure you are against going to 15 rounds. Are you arguing a cause & effect relationship between 15 round fights and all of the cases you have mentioned here? Cause I really am not convinced that there would have been significant less chance of these situations if they had fought 12 round fights. That is the issue.
Sure there is, ever since theyve pulled the fights back to 12 rounds there seem to be less boxers who retired who can barely talk.
Why risk them like that,its not going to improve the sport anyway,it wont decrease draws,draws were just as common under 15 round fights as they are now
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Except with the Kim fight, there was no reason to stop the fight. He was fighting back and defending.
Quarry suffered from boxer dementia,Ali has Parkinsons,Frazier has slurred speach
So what's your point? I 'm pretty sure you are against going to 15 rounds. Are you arguing a cause & effect relationship between 15 round fights and all of the cases you have mentioned here? Cause I really am not convinced that there would have been significant less chance of these situations if they had fought 12 round fights. That is the issue.
Sure there is, ever since theyve pulled the fights back to 12 rounds there seem to be less boxers who retired who can barely talk.
Why risk them like that,its not going to improve the sport anyway,it wont decrease draws,draws were just as common under 15 round fights as they are now
fair enough, if that's really true then I suppose one can hardly support 15 rds. I was thinking more of the immediate traumatic injury or death like that suffered by Kim. But the slurred speech thing, dementia, etc. kinda makes sense.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Except with the Kim fight, there was no reason to stop the fight. He was fighting back and defending.
Quarry suffered from boxer dementia,Ali has Parkinsons,Frazier has slurred speach
So what's your point? I 'm pretty sure you are against going to 15 rounds. Are you arguing a cause & effect relationship between 15 round fights and all of the cases you have mentioned here? Cause I really am not convinced that there would have been significant less chance of these situations if they had fought 12 round fights. That is the issue.
Sure there is, ever since theyve pulled the fights back to 12 rounds there seem to be less boxers who retired who can barely talk.
Why risk them like that,its not going to improve the sport anyway,it wont decrease draws,draws were just as common under 15 round fights as they are now
I think the big difference between now and the old days isn't that title fights are 12 instead of 15.
The big difference is that refs/cornermen are much faster to stop fights, no matter what round it is. If you watch old fights, you'll see fights where guys can barely stand up, yet the fight continues. There are tons of times where I'll watch an old fight, and I'll say to myself, "Wow, if that fight were taking place now, the ref definitely would've already stopped it."
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
So what's your point? I 'm pretty sure you are against going to 15 rounds. Are you arguing a cause & effect relationship between 15 round fights and all of the cases you have mentioned here? Cause I really am not convinced that there would have been significant less chance of these situations if they had fought 12 round fights. That is the issue.
Sure there is, ever since theyve pulled the fights back to 12 rounds there seem to be less boxers who retired who can barely talk.
Why risk them like that,its not going to improve the sport anyway,it wont decrease draws,draws were just as common under 15 round fights as they are now
I think the big difference between now and the old days isn't that title fights are 12 instead of 15.
The big difference is that refs/cornermen are much faster to stop fights, no matter what round it is. If you watch old fights, you'll see fights where guys can barely stand up, yet the fight continues. There are tons of times where I'll watch an old fight, and I'll say to myself, "Wow, if that fight were taking place now, the ref definitely would've already stopped it."
Also, people seem to have a lot less fights, only fighting 2-3 12-rounders a year. A fighter going 36 rounds in 12 months is highly active. In the past, not so much.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
So what's your point? I 'm pretty sure you are against going to 15 rounds. Are you arguing a cause & effect relationship between 15 round fights and all of the cases you have mentioned here? Cause I really am not convinced that there would have been significant less chance of these situations if they had fought 12 round fights. That is the issue.
Sure there is, ever since theyve pulled the fights back to 12 rounds there seem to be less boxers who retired who can barely talk.
Why risk them like that,its not going to improve the sport anyway,it wont decrease draws,draws were just as common under 15 round fights as they are now
fair enough, if that's really true then I suppose one can hardly support 15 rds. I was thinking more of the immediate traumatic injury or death like that suffered by Kim. But the slurred speech thing, dementia, etc. kinda makes sense.
Its a risk reward thing
As far as the reward,usually those last 3 round used to be dull at best,so your not improving fight quality
It doesnt reduce the risk of the draw,they used to happen all the time in the 15 round era
And as far as the health of the fighter,even great HW's from that era slurr their speech
And those are the luckier ones
The way Quarry lived his last years was absoultely pathetic
Its not just boxing concussive dementia can happen in either
Former NFL Safety Andre Waters committed suicide while suffering from it
WWE Wrestler Chris Benoit was suffering from it when he killed himself and his family
Its just not worth the risks
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee number 1 groupie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
I think it would be more interesting if like in the case of a draw like
Marquez /Pac if the ref goes to each corner and asks both sides if they want to go the fifteen.
Well something did happen like that before but not quite like that, Tony Thorton went 12 rounds with Doug DeWitt. And they drawed then they were ordered to go 13 rounds to break the draw.
An odd number of rounds will minimize a "draw" result...
.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee number 1 groupie
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
I think it would be more interesting if like in the case of a draw like
Marquez /Pac if the ref goes to each corner and asks both sides if they want to go the fifteen.
Well something did happen like that before but not quite like that, Tony Thorton went 12 rounds with Doug DeWitt. And they drawed then they were ordered to go 13 rounds to break the draw.
An odd number of rounds will minimize a "draw" result...
.
Never did before
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Your forgetting odd number of judges
And that leads to inconclusive mixed decisions all the time
You could play Clazeghe/Hopkins in front of 151 different judges,and you allmost allways end up with different results
Assuming there's no KDs and deductions, in odd number of rounds a judge is expected to determine a winner. For example Judge A has Boxer 1, then Judge B has Boxer 2. Judge C can't give an even (draw) total score for the fight because of the odd number of rounds so Judge C has either Boxer 1 or Boxer 2 as winner then it results to a majority decision (MD) win of either boxers.
But the judge has all the capability to manipulate the score. The judge can score a round even, 9-9 or a 10-10 round that can result to a draw but these are exceptional situations.
Though as always, the question still remains the same, does that boxer really deserve the win? At least they proclaim someone a winner instead of a draw. Odd number of rounds become a motivation (or added pressure?) for the boxer for there will be a minimal chance for a draw. So meaning if the boxer feels he's behind in the scorecards then he really needs a KO to win, he can't hope for a draw.
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Even then,it really doesnt lessen the odds of a draw
Fullmer/Robinson Fullmer/Giardello Pep/McCallister Carmen Basillio had 7 draws
This is true. Draws are usually the resut of shady ass judges who don't have the nuts to give an all-out robbery and save their own boy with a draw. They also set up another fight quite nicely.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee number 1 groupie
Well something did happen like that before but not quite like that, Tony Thorton went 12 rounds with Doug DeWitt. And they drawed then they were ordered to go 13 rounds to break the draw.
An odd number of rounds will minimize a "draw" result...
.
Never did before
Odd number of rounds will not totally eliminate the "draw" results but I think it will minimize or lessen it...
.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
I don't really see a big problem with draws. It's the legitimate result of a tough, evenly matched fight. It beats the hell out of losing a close evenly matched fight, doesn't it?
Love tough evenly matched fights but I believe draws have earned the stigma of shady officiating and a wink & nod for some.Just seems that for the Pac/Marquez 1's and Toney/McCallum 1's we see declared draws that they are way over shadowed by the Whitaker/Chavez,Nelson/Fenech 1,and Lewis/Holyfields1's of the world.I just don't think anyone likes Draws. Though,their are instances when they seem unavoidable.
Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CGM
I don't really see a big problem with draws. It's the legitimate result of a tough, evenly matched fight. It beats the hell out of losing a close evenly matched fight, doesn't it?
Love tough evenly matched fights but I believe draws have earned the stigma of shady officiating and a wink & nod for some.Just seems that for the Pac/Marquez 1's and Toney/McCallum 1's we see declared draws that they are way over shadowed by the Whitaker/Chavez,Nelson/Fenech 1,and Lewis/Holyfields1's of the world.I just don't think anyone likes Draws. Though,their are instances when they seem unavoidable.
I fully agree 'lil bro... :)
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Re: Sould fifteen round championship fights make a return?
Wonder why it is that fighters in Argentina have so many draws on their records. Might be because that have so many fights. :confused:
