Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
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Originally Posted by
Drago
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Originally Posted by
ICB
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Originally Posted by
Drago
the problem is ali fought all the best opponents, RJJ didnt. if they had of fought i would put alot of money on ali to win
Yea and i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 10 losses, on his record but thats a debate for another day. I just think people overrate Muhammad Ali a bit too much, i don't think its crazy to think a 190 pound RJJ, who still keeps his attributes, could trouble the Muhammad Ali who was just over 200 pounds, and was hurt and troubled by fighters who would be technically Cruiserweights today.
good point ali did have a few gifts but he at least fought everyone, its a real sahme RJJ didnt fight collins, eubank & benn he would of probably beat them all but a real shame he didnt.
Oh yea for certain you can't argue that Muhammad Ali, fought the best. And i respect him for that, but im just not a fan of his. And just because he's regarded by fans as one of the greatest. I don't have to have the same opinion.
And i don't agree that just because of who he is, that we should just sweep his controversial decisions under the carpet. I truly believe he lost twice to Ken Norton the 1st fight and the 3rd fight, and the 2nd fight Muhammad Ali may of edged out by 1 point. But it still easily could of been a draw.
I also think he lost to Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers. His fight with Doug Jones was probably a draw, and this was Muhammad Ali not that far from his peak.
And lets also not forget the controversy surronding the Henry Cooper fight, i believe smelling salts wern't allowed in the UK at that time. And he should of maybe have been technically DQ although don't quote me on that. Because im not sure of that fact.
And also there was plenty of other fighters, he should of handily beaten. That he struggled with, theres no doubt Muhammad Ali was a great fighter.
But i do believe he is very beatable, and as i've always said if he would of lost some of those controversial decisions, especially the ones against Jimmy Young, Ken Norton. Which i would probably say more people think he lost these fights than won, would he still been seen in the same light ?
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
would he still been seen in the same light ? u ask ICB & i think the answer is definately no my friend your making a very good argument here
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
on the other hand
could you see RJ beating foreman, frazier & sonny liston?
i could see ali beating all of RJ's opposition easily
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
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Originally Posted by
ICB
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Originally Posted by
Drago
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Yea and i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 10 losses, on his record but thats a debate for another day. I just think people overrate Muhammad Ali a bit too much, i don't think its crazy to think a 190 pound RJJ, who still keeps his attributes, could trouble the Muhammad Ali who was just over 200 pounds, and was hurt and troubled by fighters who would be technically Cruiserweights today.
good point ali did have a few gifts but he at least fought everyone, its a real sahme RJJ didnt fight collins, eubank & benn he would of probably beat them all but a real shame he didnt.
Oh yea for certain you can't argue that Muhammad Ali, fought the best. And i respect him for that, but im just not a fan of his. And just because he's regarded by fans as one of the greatest. I don't have to have the same opinion.
And i don't agree that just because of who he is, that we should just sweep his controversial decisions under the carpet. I truly believe he lost twice to Ken Norton the 1st fight and the 3rd fight, and the 2nd fight Muhammad Ali may of edged out by 1 point. But it still easily could of been a draw.
I also think he lost to Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers. His fight with Doug Jones was probably a draw, and this was Muhammad Ali not that far from his peak.
And lets also not forget the controversy surronding the Henry Cooper fight, i believe smelling salts wern't allowed in the UK at that time. And he should of maybe have been technically DQ although don't quote me on that. Because im not sure of that fact.
And also there was plenty of other fighters, he should of handily beaten. That he struggled with, theres no doubt Muhammad Ali was a great fighter.
But i do believe he is very beatable, and as i've always said if he would of lost some of those controversial decisions, especially the ones against Jimmy Young, Ken Norton. Which i would probably say more people think he lost these fights than won, would he still been seen in the same light ?
To be honest I think Ali won the 2nd and 3rd with Norton although they were close. The 1st was something of a moral victory going the distance with the broken jaw too. Secondly I think he peaked twice but in different ways I think he was really good just before his ban (or whatever you want to call it). Then when he came back he looked rusty as hell and it took him a while to get back and when he did peak again (for me against Foreman) it wasn't natural ability he was relying on as much as his seemingly well developed boxing brain.
Another thing is the Cooper story is played up to death with people saying he got this long and that long to recover due to the glove when really I think it was an extra 7 seconds when you time it properly. He was also a long way off either peak in the first Cooper fight and made silly mistakes that reared their ugly heads again in the first Frazier fight before he was back to his best.
I don't think RJ could beat a prime Ali but I respect your argument and if he could then that would back up my claims that he might be the greatest p4p fighter of all time!
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
RJ cannot be classed as p4p of all time ever, his opposition mainly was terrible!
his greatest victory came against john ruiz i repeat john ruiz
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drago
RJ cannot be classed as p4p of all time ever, his opposition mainly was terrible!
his greatest victory came against john ruiz i repeat john ruiz
No way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
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Originally Posted by
Drago
RJ cannot be classed as p4p of all time ever, his opposition mainly was terrible!
his greatest victory came against john ruiz i repeat john ruiz
No way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.
he caught hopkins to early
toney was weight drained
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drago
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Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
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Originally Posted by
Drago
RJ cannot be classed as p4p of all time ever, his opposition mainly was terrible!
his greatest victory came against john ruiz i repeat john ruiz
No way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.
he caught hopkins to early
toney was weight drained
Single handedly
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
Since this topic just turned into a comparison of ALi and Jones and mythical match ups between the 2. There is no comparison in my opinion. ALi fought everyone that was good or great in his era at any place. Can Roy Jones say that? Of course not, that's why from time to time on boxing forums there are Roy Jones VS. Nigel Benn, Chris Eubanks, Gerald McClellan threads or the if Roy was in his prime against a prime Joe Calzaghe who would win?
Ali fought any good/great HW in his era. There aren't any of those hypothetical questions with how he would fare with Foreman, Shavers, Norton, Frazier, Liston, etc. And here's another thing, even when he was a young champion he still fought contenders in their own hometown/country like the English fighters such as Brian London, Henry Cooper, etc.
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
What I dont understand is how can one say why one era is better? What because the fights were closer or more competitive? Roy jones dominated guys that were champs period. He dominated guys that went on to hold belts.
Call me the saddoheretic but whatever, Ali ate too many left hooks, Roy Jones would massacre his ass. His own daughter even admitted that her father ate too many left hooks.
All that crap about they were great because that had tough fights against each other counts for them but counts against roy because he blew everyone out. Move him back to the eighties and there isnt a single fighter below HW that would even come close to beating him. That's why he constantly being pitted in these hypothetical match-ups against TRUE HEAVYWEIGHTS when he started at 154. That's a self admission that he'd beat anyone that wasn't a HW.
I've never seen one thread about Ray Robinson vs mike tyson or Ray robinson vs Ali...
ROY JONES BEST THAT EVER LACED 'EM UP.
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
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Originally Posted by
Andre
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Originally Posted by
Drago
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Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
No way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.
he caught hopkins to early
toney was weight drained
Single handedly
Exactly single handedly, also Hopkins didn't get beat again til Taylor so it can't have been that early, it was just that back then Jones was that good
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonesJrMayweather
What I dont understand is how can one say why one era is better? What because the fights were closer or more competitive? Roy jones dominated guys that were champs period. He dominated guys that went on to hold belts.
Call me the saddoheretic but whatever, Ali ate too many left hooks, Roy Jones would massacre his ass. His own daughter even admitted that her father ate too many left hooks.
All that crap about they were great because that had tough fights against each other counts for them but counts against roy because he blew everyone out. Move him back to the eighties and there isnt a single fighter below HW that would even come close to beating him. That's why he constantly being pitted in these hypothetical match-ups against TRUE HEAVYWEIGHTS when he started at 154. That's a self admission that he'd beat anyone that wasn't a HW.
I've never seen one thread about Ray Robinson vs mike tyson or Ray robinson vs Ali...
ROY JONES BEST THAT EVER LACED 'EM UP.
I agree with every word on your post except for him beating Ali.
Especially ROY JONES BEST THAT EVER LACED 'EM UP.
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
See the problem with these dream matchups is fans usually will take a prime one fighter and a current of another. When talking about Tyson vs Roy people will use a prime tyson against a current roy.
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
Iron Mike would of crack that chin:boxingmatch:
Jones was amazing but Tyson was a beast:mr-t:
Re: Roy jones jr vs Mike Tyson
RJJ doesn't have the style that has proven effective vs Tyson. I do think Roy was great, but it's hard to say when his only heavyweight fight was vs John Ruiz and he didn't fight any prime fighters that had anything close to Tyson's style or were as dangerous to him as Tyson would have been.
As for Ali, that's good of you ICB, not to buy into the hype. I think he was a great fighter, but I can't think of him as THE GREATEST OF ALL-TIME. That pisses some people off, but I feel other fighters acheived more than he did, maybe he was dealt a bad hand with the Vietnam War and all but just because he was an icon of the Black counter culture right next to MLK and Malcom X doesn't mean he's automatically the greatest fighter of all time. He was blessed with good opponents and he was physically bigger than all of them and they all had pretty limited styles at that time. The opponents Ali fought were either plodding sluggers like Foreman and Frazier or boxers with little to no power.
