Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
Majesty
There is a very big difference between being a defensive master. And playing it safe when you have every physical advantage on a fighter. Wladimer jabs jabs jabs and grabs which he should be warned for.
Wladimer fights like he is scared to get knocked out again. Wladimer has size, power, speed, and accuracy on Chambers, explain to me why he has to jab for 12 rounds before finishing him.
You cannot compare him to Floyd or Whitaker or any defensive fighter.
Mayweather has speed over most anyone he faces and has the best defense in the business, yet when he has the opening he stops his opponents, and knocks them out and when he has a fighter hurt he goes for the kill when its there.
With Wladimer, it's been "there" for the last 6 rounds before he decided to do anything about it.
There's a difference between a boring fighter and a defensive artist. What Wlad does isn't being a defensive master its being scared to be knocked out again.
When you have reach, size, weight, He had a near 50 pound weight advantage. And power!!!
Tell me how someone with all these strengths waits for the 12th round to get someone out that he should get out in 4 or 5 rounds?
And don't say "its up to someone to bring it out of him and make him use it" That makes no sense, so he should wait till he gets hurt in a fight before he starts to use all the advantages he has? If anything prolonging a fight cause you're scared to go for the kill only makes another fighter braver and likens your chance to be stopped. There is no excuse to justify how Wladimer fights, so don't look for one.
Good post. In no other division can you hold such obvious advantages over your opponents and he plays it extremely safe in order to make the win. You have to respect him doing what he needs to do to win, but why on earth are 50, 000 people wanting to see it? It is bloody boring.
Jab, jab, jab then clinch if he can. I quite like how Chambers picked him up twice. I would like to see more of that. Chambers was simply too small and had the wrong style. What we need is either more big heavyweights who can deploy the same tools Wlad does or a strong smaller heavyweight who will move the head, slip and get inside and fire off punches before Wlad can. Someone like prime Tyson would have eaten Wlad Klitschko up for breakfast. Klitschko is really no defensive master, not at all. He just looks decent against fighters who give up trying to win and who turn all Clottey-esque on us.
Although i agree that a prime Tyson would cause Wlad major problems because of the speed, power, head movement and angles, You shouldn't discredit Wlad's abilities in the ring and his achivements regardless of how weak the division is.
Calzaghe and Hopkins are great fighters but the division's they dominated weren't that good really but there dominance was too good to go ignored.
Wlad is a great boxer, he is awesome at fighting at his range and at controlling the pace, his footwork is great. His jab is deadly accurate and his right hand and left hook can take you out if landed clean. His handspeed is good for a fighter his size also. The only thing his game lacks is body work and an inside game but with his reach and height advantage he doesn't really need them.
Chambers did try and win tonight, he simply couldn't get past the jab and Wlad's footwork threw him off. When ever Eddie fired punches, Wlad would take a few steps back, avoid Eddie shots and start firing the jab again. Thats really frustrating for a fighter to deal with especially a accurate guy like Chambers.
Hopkins and Calzaghe were fighting men who weighed the same and had similar physical tools. There were no 40 pound weight differentials to be dealing with. If the guy was taller, then at least you knew you weighed the same. The other weight classes exist for good reason. Only at heavyweight can you get such size disparities.
Don't get me wrong Wlad does what he needs to do and it isn't his fault that there is noone to challenge him, but Chambers could quite easily make cruiserweight. Wlad is a superheavyweight really. I think the size can be overcome with skills, but unfortunately there seems to be nothing much on the horizon. A Tyson type figure would put the fear of god into Wlad. Tyson would be his achilles heel. I just don't see how Wladimir would be able to keep him off and stay calm enough to not allow his stamina to suffer badly. Chambers is quite quick, but not offensive minded in the slightest. He has no real power and was too willing to just let the seconds tick by while Wlad kept pawing at the guard.
I've always much preferred Vitali to Wlad, at least the man engages and throws punches.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Good post. In no other division can you hold such obvious advantages over your opponents and he plays it extremely safe in order to make the win. You have to respect him doing what he needs to do to win, but why on earth are 50, 000 people wanting to see it? It is bloody boring.
Jab, jab, jab then clinch if he can. I quite like how Chambers picked him up twice. I would like to see more of that. Chambers was simply too small and had the wrong style. What we need is either more big heavyweights who can deploy the same tools Wlad does or a strong smaller heavyweight who will move the head, slip and get inside and fire off punches before Wlad can. Someone like prime Tyson would have eaten Wlad Klitschko up for breakfast. Klitschko is really no defensive master, not at all. He just looks decent against fighters who give up trying to win and who turn all Clottey-esque on us.
Although i agree that a prime Tyson would cause Wlad major problems because of the speed, power, head movement and angles, You shouldn't discredit Wlad's abilities in the ring and his achivements regardless of how weak the division is.
Calzaghe and Hopkins are great fighters but the division's they dominated weren't that good really but there dominance was too good to go ignored.
Wlad is a great boxer, he is awesome at fighting at his range and at controlling the pace, his footwork is great. His jab is deadly accurate and his right hand and left hook can take you out if landed clean. His handspeed is good for a fighter his size also. The only thing his game lacks is body work and an inside game but with his reach and height advantage he doesn't really need them.
Chambers did try and win tonight, he simply couldn't get past the jab and Wlad's footwork threw him off. When ever Eddie fired punches, Wlad would take a few steps back, avoid Eddie shots and start firing the jab again. Thats really frustrating for a fighter to deal with especially a accurate guy like Chambers.
Hopkins and Calzaghe were fighting men who weighed the same and had similar physical tools. There were no 40 pound weight differentials to be dealing with. If the guy was taller, then at least you knew you weighed the same. The other weight classes exist for good reason. Only at heavyweight can you get such size disparities.
Don't get me wrong Wlad does what he needs to do and it isn't his fault that there is noone to challenge him, but Chambers could quite easily make cruiserweight. Wlad is a superheavyweight really. I think the size can be overcome with skills, but unfortunately there seems to be nothing much on the horizon. A Tyson type figure would put the fear of god into Wlad. Tyson would be his achilles heel. I just don't see how Wladimir would be able to keep him off and stay calm enough to not allow his stamina to suffer badly. Chambers is quite quick, but not offensive minded in the slightest. He has no real power and was too willing to just let the seconds tick by while Wlad kept pawing at the guard.
I've always much preferred Vitali to Wlad, at least the man engages and throws punches.
yes and someone with the advantages of Wladimer, fights like he has none at all.
As I said he has size, reach, speed, accuracy and POWER over any other Heavyweight out there. A height and reach advantage as well.
Now, why would someone with all these advantages have to take 12 rounds to stop any opponent? Simply put he is afraid of getting knocked out again. If he used all the skill he has he would be blowing people out in a round or two. You can talk trash about Lennox Lewis all you want but when he had someone he took them out of there so he wouldnt get caught with anything crazy. Wladimer just prolongs and prolongs and prolongs.
When Lennox had someone hurt he got them out.
Fact is Wladimer would take 12 rounds to beat Andrew Golata now, and Lewis knocked him out in the first round.
People can try to say Lennox was boring but he never "prolong"ed anything.
Tua he never really hurt and boxed safely and it was a boring fight. But Wladimer has no tua's in front of him, no one thats gonna blow him out. he had freaking eddie chambers in front of him, 50 pound weight advantage, 6 inch height advantage probably a long reach advantage too and yet it takes him 12 rounds to beat this guy? Why anyone tries to excuse Wlads boringness is beyond me
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Although i agree that a prime Tyson would cause Wlad major problems because of the speed, power, head movement and angles, You shouldn't discredit Wlad's abilities in the ring and his achivements regardless of how weak the division is. Calzaghe and Hopkins are great fighters but the division's they dominated weren't that good really but there dominance was too good to go ignored.
Wlad is a great boxer, he is awesome at fighting at his range and at controlling the pace, his footwork is great. His jab is deadly accurate and his right hand and left hook can take you out if landed clean. His handspeed is good for a fighter his size also. The only thing his game lacks is body work and an inside game but with his reach and height advantage he doesn't really need them.
Chambers did try and win tonight, he simply couldn't get past the jab and Wlad's footwork threw him off. When ever Eddie fired punches, Wlad would take a few steps back, avoid Eddie shots and start firing the jab again. Thats really frustrating for a fighter to deal with especially a accurate guy like Chambers.
Hopkins and Calzaghe were fighting men who weighed the same and had similar physical tools. There were no 40 pound weight differentials to be dealing with. If the guy was taller, then at least you knew you weighed the same. The other weight classes exist for good reason. Only at heavyweight can you get such size disparities.
Don't get me wrong Wlad does what he needs to do and it isn't his fault that there is noone to challenge him, but Chambers could quite easily make cruiserweight. Wlad is a superheavyweight really. I think the size can be overcome with skills, but unfortunately there seems to be nothing much on the horizon. A Tyson type figure would put the fear of god into Wlad. Tyson would be his achilles heel. I just don't see how Wladimir would be able to keep him off and stay calm enough to not allow his stamina to suffer badly. Chambers is quite quick, but not offensive minded in the slightest. He has no real power and was too willing to just let the seconds tick by while Wlad kept pawing at the guard.
I've always much preferred Vitali to Wlad, at least the man engages and throws punches.
yes and someone with the advantages of Wladimer, fights like he has none at all.
As I said he has size, reach, speed, accuracy and POWER over any other Heavyweight out there. A height and reach advantage as well.
Now, why would someone with all these advantages have to take 12 rounds to stop any opponent? Simply put he is afraid of getting knocked out again. If he used all the skill he has he would be blowing people out in a round or two. You can talk trash about Lennox Lewis all you want but when he had someone he took them out of there so he wouldnt get caught with anything crazy. Wladimer just prolongs and prolongs and prolongs.
When Lennox had someone hurt he got them out.
Fact is Wladimer would take 12 rounds to beat Andrew Golata now, and Lewis knocked him out in the first round.
People can try to say Lennox was boring but he never "prolong"ed anything.
Tua he never really hurt and boxed safely and it was a boring fight. But Wladimer has no tua's in front of him, no one thats gonna blow him out. he had freaking eddie chambers in front of him, 50 pound weight advantage, 6 inch height advantage probably a long reach advantage too and yet it takes him 12 rounds to beat this guy? Why anyone tries to excuse Wlads boringness is beyond me
What the Tua/Lewis fight lacked in constant action made up for it ion the shots they took....Both fighters ate some big big punches in that bout
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Keep in mind, before the Sanders fight Wlad was much more aggressive, he got caught, his confidence was hurt and became much more careful. I think as time goes on he will become more aggressive but it is not like he is doing it for no reason......He did get caught and lost. The problem is Wlad is too smart and he wont make the mistake he made in Sanders fight again......
Also, Wlad was way ahead on the cards going into the 12 round vs chambers and pressed the KO, so give the guy some credit for that......
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Hey the dude uses what he's got to win, is it his fault most other heavies aren't 6'7...pwill often gets critiqued for not using his reach advantage yet wlad gets critiqued on every fight these days because he completely controls range...wlad knows he got a pretty fragile chin so hes not wanting to risk it at all like he did back in the day, can ya blame him, smart fella...he's not forcing anyone to the tv to watch.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebif
Wlad bored me once again he just very rarely throws his right hand Chambers should of been out of there by the 6th.Even Manny Steward didnt seem happy with Wlad not wanting to punch.
I kinda felt that Manny Steward was almost showing disgust thst Chambers was still there, that talking to he gave him before the 12th, man, Wlad should be ashamed of himself... Such a poor punch output and extremely low level of aggression for a giant physical monster of a heavyweight. I think the hook he caught Chambers with was about the third hook he'd thrown all night. Ha. Jab Jab Straight Right, Jab Jab, Jab, Jab Jab Jab, jab Straight Right, Jab Jab.... Jab...................Jab. He's surely the most monotonous boxer out there....
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
themacmagician
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebif
Wlad bored me once again he just very rarely throws his right hand Chambers should of been out of there by the 6th.Even Manny Steward didnt seem happy with Wlad not wanting to punch.
I kinda felt that Manny Steward was almost showing disgust thst Chambers was still there, that talking to he gave him before the 12th, man, Wlad should be ashamed of himself... Such a poor punch output and extremely low level of aggression for a giant physical monster of a heavyweight. I think the hook he caught Chambers with was about the third hook he'd thrown all night. Ha. Jab Jab Straight Right, Jab Jab, Jab, Jab Jab Jab, jab Straight Right, Jab Jab.... Jab...................Jab. He's surely the most monotonous boxer out there....
I agree he never thows many hooks at all.He never thows upercuts either i think i saw him throw 1 in the hole fight.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebif
Quote:
Originally Posted by
themacmagician
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebif
Wlad bored me once again he just very rarely throws his right hand Chambers should of been out of there by the 6th.Even Manny Steward didnt seem happy with Wlad not wanting to punch.
I kinda felt that Manny Steward was almost showing disgust thst Chambers was still there, that talking to he gave him before the 12th, man, Wlad should be ashamed of himself... Such a poor punch output and extremely low level of aggression for a giant physical monster of a heavyweight. I think the hook he caught Chambers with was about the third hook he'd thrown all night. Ha. Jab Jab Straight Right, Jab Jab, Jab, Jab Jab Jab, jab Straight Right, Jab Jab.... Jab...................Jab. He's surely the most monotonous boxer out there....
I agree he never thows many hooks at all.
He never thows upercuts either i think i saw him throw 1 in the hole fight.
You saw an uppercut!? lol I sure didnt.
But on a different note, I hope Eddie's confidence is not too badly shaken by the loss, because I would like to see him stick around for boxing's sake. And IMO, Eddie did try last night. He just couldnt make it happen. It was simply too "big" of an uphill battle.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Good post. In no other division can you hold such obvious advantages over your opponents and he plays it extremely safe in order to make the win. You have to respect him doing what he needs to do to win, but why on earth are 50, 000 people wanting to see it? It is bloody boring.
Jab, jab, jab then clinch if he can. I quite like how Chambers picked him up twice. I would like to see more of that. Chambers was simply too small and had the wrong style. What we need is either more big heavyweights who can deploy the same tools Wlad does or a strong smaller heavyweight who will move the head, slip and get inside and fire off punches before Wlad can. Someone like prime Tyson would have eaten Wlad Klitschko up for breakfast. Klitschko is really no defensive master, not at all. He just looks decent against fighters who give up trying to win and who turn all Clottey-esque on us.
Although i agree that a prime Tyson would cause Wlad major problems because of the speed, power, head movement and angles, You shouldn't discredit Wlad's abilities in the ring and his achivements regardless of how weak the division is.
Calzaghe and Hopkins are great fighters but the division's they dominated weren't that good really but there dominance was too good to go ignored.
Wlad is a great boxer, he is awesome at fighting at his range and at controlling the pace, his footwork is great. His jab is deadly accurate and his right hand and left hook can take you out if landed clean. His handspeed is good for a fighter his size also. The only thing his game lacks is body work and an inside game but with his reach and height advantage he doesn't really need them.
Chambers did try and win tonight, he simply couldn't get past the jab and Wlad's footwork threw him off. When ever Eddie fired punches, Wlad would take a few steps back, avoid Eddie shots and start firing the jab again. Thats really frustrating for a fighter to deal with especially a accurate guy like Chambers.
Hopkins and Calzaghe were fighting men who weighed the same and had similar physical tools. There were no 40 pound weight differentials to be dealing with. If the guy was taller, then at least you knew you weighed the same. The other weight classes exist for good reason. Only at heavyweight can you get such size disparities.
Don't get me wrong Wlad does what he needs to do and it isn't his fault that there is noone to challenge him, but Chambers could quite easily make cruiserweight. Wlad is a superheavyweight really. I think the size can be overcome with skills, but unfortunately there seems to be nothing much on the horizon. A Tyson type figure would put the fear of god into Wlad. Tyson would be his achilles heel. I just don't see how Wladimir would be able to keep him off and stay calm enough to not allow his stamina to suffer badly. Chambers is quite quick, but not offensive minded in the slightest. He has no real power and was too willing to just let the seconds tick by while Wlad kept pawing at the guard.
I've always much preferred Vitali to Wlad, at least the man engages and throws punches.
It's not Wlad's fault that he has a size advantage over most of his opponents. Wlad's size is an advantage but not that much of a advantage that he can dominate all the fighters he faces. he has a great skillset to go along with his size. The heavyweight division states that anything over 200 pounds is a heavyweight so it's not like he's cheating lol.
Size wasn't a factor for Eddie when he clearly outboxed 6ft7 254 pounds Alexander Dimitrenko for 12 rounds. Dimitrenko actually has a longer reach than Wlad by 2 inches and Eddie was even able to hurt him a few times.
It was all different against Wlad though because he has alot of boxing ability to go along with the size and reach.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Although i agree that a prime Tyson would cause Wlad major problems because of the speed, power, head movement and angles, You shouldn't discredit Wlad's abilities in the ring and his achivements regardless of how weak the division is. Calzaghe and Hopkins are great fighters but the division's they dominated weren't that good really but there dominance was too good to go ignored.
Wlad is a great boxer, he is awesome at fighting at his range and at controlling the pace, his footwork is great. His jab is deadly accurate and his right hand and left hook can take you out if landed clean. His handspeed is good for a fighter his size also. The only thing his game lacks is body work and an inside game but with his reach and height advantage he doesn't really need them.
Chambers did try and win tonight, he simply couldn't get past the jab and Wlad's footwork threw him off. When ever Eddie fired punches, Wlad would take a few steps back, avoid Eddie shots and start firing the jab again. Thats really frustrating for a fighter to deal with especially a accurate guy like Chambers.
Hopkins and Calzaghe were fighting men who weighed the same and had similar physical tools. There were no 40 pound weight differentials to be dealing with. If the guy was taller, then at least you knew you weighed the same. The other weight classes exist for good reason. Only at heavyweight can you get such size disparities.
Don't get me wrong Wlad does what he needs to do and it isn't his fault that there is noone to challenge him, but Chambers could quite easily make cruiserweight. Wlad is a superheavyweight really. I think the size can be overcome with skills, but unfortunately there seems to be nothing much on the horizon. A Tyson type figure would put the fear of god into Wlad. Tyson would be his achilles heel. I just don't see how Wladimir would be able to keep him off and stay calm enough to not allow his stamina to suffer badly. Chambers is quite quick, but not offensive minded in the slightest. He has no real power and was too willing to just let the seconds tick by while Wlad kept pawing at the guard.
I've always much preferred Vitali to Wlad, at least the man engages and throws punches.
It's not Wlad's fault that he has a size advantage over most of his opponents. Wlad's size is an advantage but not that much of a advantage that he can dominate all the fighters he faces. he has a great skillset to go along with his size. The heavyweight division states that anything over 200 pounds is a heavyweight so it's not like he's cheating lol.
Size wasn't a factor for Eddie when he clearly outboxed 6ft7 254 pounds Alexander Dimitrenko for 12 rounds. Dimitrenko actually has a longer reach than Wlad by 2 inches and Eddie was even able to hurt him a few times.
It was all different against Wlad though because he has alot of boxing ability to go along with the size and reach.
it's not a lot of boxing ability. it's his strength and power. if he had a lot of boxing ability, he wouldn't have went in there head hunting and made to look like an absolute monkey at times by chambers.
there isn't much gap if at all between wlad and chambers in boxing skills.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Hopkins and Calzaghe were fighting men who weighed the same and had similar physical tools. There were no 40 pound weight differentials to be dealing with. If the guy was taller, then at least you knew you weighed the same. The other weight classes exist for good reason. Only at heavyweight can you get such size disparities.
Don't get me wrong Wlad does what he needs to do and it isn't his fault that there is noone to challenge him, but Chambers could quite easily make cruiserweight. Wlad is a superheavyweight really. I think the size can be overcome with skills, but unfortunately there seems to be nothing much on the horizon. A Tyson type figure would put the fear of god into Wlad. Tyson would be his achilles heel. I just don't see how Wladimir would be able to keep him off and stay calm enough to not allow his stamina to suffer badly. Chambers is quite quick, but not offensive minded in the slightest. He has no real power and was too willing to just let the seconds tick by while Wlad kept pawing at the guard.
I've always much preferred Vitali to Wlad, at least the man engages and throws punches.
It's not Wlad's fault that he has a size advantage over most of his opponents. Wlad's size is an advantage but not that much of a advantage that he can dominate all the fighters he faces. he has a great skillset to go along with his size. The heavyweight division states that anything over 200 pounds is a heavyweight so it's not like he's cheating lol.
Size wasn't a factor for Eddie when he clearly outboxed 6ft7 254 pounds Alexander Dimitrenko for 12 rounds. Dimitrenko actually has a longer reach than Wlad by 2 inches and Eddie was even able to hurt him a few times.
It was all different against Wlad though because he has alot of boxing ability to go along with the size and reach.
it's not a lot of boxing ability. it's his strength and power. if he had a lot of boxing ability, he wouldn't have went in there head hunting and made to look like an absolute monkey at times by chambers.
there isn't much gap if at all between wlad and chambers in boxing skills.
Wlad doesn't win fights on power, he outboxes his opponent then knocks them out.
Eddie barely landed on Wlad except for the odd right hand over the top and a few bodyshots all the while getting jabbed constantly through his guard.
Wlad clearly outboxed Chambers, his jab alone forced Eddie to go into a shell. Wlad is clearly the better boxer and it showed last night.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
yeah and lennox lewis outboxed evander holyfield. muhammad ali outboxed archie moore and floyd patterson. so what? lennox lewis isn't even in the same tier as holyfield in terms of boxing skills. and muhammad ali couldn't carry neither archie moore's nor patterson's jockstrap in boxing skills either. you are not getting the point.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
yeah and lennox lewis outboxed evander holyfield. muhammad ali outboxed archie moore and floyd patterson. so what? lennox lewis isn't even in the same tier as holyfield in terms of boxing skills. and muhammad ali couldn't carry neither archie moore's nor patterson's jockstrap in boxing skills either. you are not getting the point.
Actually, he does, and he does defend and articulate his arguments very clearly and solidly, you're the one avoiding it, his demonstration was to prove that Wlad didn't win only because of reach, weight and height but because of great skills who he uses along with his physical advantages(which is totally right) and he gave the Dimitrienko example to show that Chambers have won against much bigger, heavier and with more reach than him and that you cannot solely place Wlad's victory on the "size but talentless" category.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
It was a meh performance aided at every turn by a pathetic ref.
Re: Dominance! (There will be spoilers about Wlad-Chambers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
yeah and lennox lewis outboxed evander holyfield. muhammad ali outboxed archie moore and floyd patterson. so what? lennox lewis isn't even in the same tier as holyfield in terms of boxing skills. and muhammad ali couldn't carry neither archie moore's nor patterson's jockstrap in boxing skills either. you are not getting the point.
Lewis > Holyfield and i'm a Holyfield fan.
Ali > Moore and Paterson clearly imo.
but thats not the point.
Are you finally admitting that Wlad outboxed Eddie ?
