Manny Pacquiao sometimes we forget just how good he really is

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Saddo

just watched this it brought back some great memories and reminded me of some big debates ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeIlFz7J2E

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Crazy thing is as you watch the fights and the years progress he gets better and better each time out....There is no such thing as an "OK" performance from Manny Pacquiao...He is just going to go all out in the best style he can...Plus he has started to use defense...Man the longer Floyd waits to fight him the worse it gets for Floyd

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Oscar Larios? Jorge Solis? I agree Manny has looked better and better, but I think part of that is effective strategic planning on the part of Roach and Arum.

Oscar was shot when he faced Manny because for whatever reason he couldn't rehydrate. Cotto wasn't the same offensive force he was a few years before, and Clottey's style was tailor made for Manny to beat. I think they had the perfect strategy to beat Hatton. Now I think Manny has to be a great fighter to accomplish what he did, but he definitely had circumstantial advantages when he faced them.

Not to what you wrote, but what somebody else did. I simply think Floyd didn't want to fight in 2010 again. The more he has been in the spotlight, the more it seems Floyd gets stressed out by it. Across his whole career there have been times where he has been less dedicated to fighting often than necessarily the opponents he has foughten. I think Mayweather has faced plenty of opposition, clearly not like Manny has, but Floyd has beaten at least 8 future hall of famers. That is more than almost anyone else except Manny of this era.

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Well yes you have valid points with the oppponents Manny faced and how they were choosen but the same can be said for Floyd...They both have some really big names they made sure they caught at the right time...I agree with Floyd being stressed out by the media but then again he seeks the media out? Kind of catch 22?....Floyd is stressed by the media because he is not really sure how to act.....

Inj truth nif Floyd was just "FLOYD" the Floyd I have met away from fans the Floyd that is known to give back to his community the guy would the this era most popular fighter....Floyd does not likie the villan role just with the way he gets around the media it is one that he finds easier to play

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I think Floyd realizes it makes him more money, but it probably also stresses the shit out of him always maintaining that facades, and we can see that it probably has become part of who he is, but I am guessing he probably hates that fact deep down, I don't see how anyone could like being that person.

I honestly think that while Floyd hasn't had the big names that Pacquiao has had during his career that Floyd hasn't sculpted his career the way some would have you believe. I just think people ignore facts

130- Floyd fought Hernandez and Corrales the two most dangerous guys at that weight.
135- FLoyd should have foughten Casamayor, but he fought a better fighter in Castillo, and fought him twice.
140- Floyd fought Gatti who more people than would be willing to admit thought would present problems for Floyd, but Tszyu wouldn't fight Floyd, and I honestly think Floyd already had Oscar in his sights and knew time was running out.
147- Floyd fought Judah because they were friends I think this was planned long before Judah lost to Baldomir, but Floyd I think felt it would be a good money making fight for him.
Then he fought Baldomir for the same amount of money he would have received against Margarito whom nobody knew about at that point, and Floyd was fighting the linear welterweight champion of the world, and if you look back at magazines and Emmanuel Steward they thought this would be an extremely difficult fight for Floyd to win.
154- Floyd fought Oscar after Oscar disposed of Mayorga in a devastating fashion in the worst beat down of Mayorga's life. Later even Mosley who would go on to KO Margarito didn't look anywhere near as good in stopping Mayorga. Anyways, back to my point Oscar who IMO was far better than given credit for at that time gave one of the best performances of his career, and was far better opponent then Margarito who was beaten by Paul Williams around then.
back to 147
-Paul Williams wasn't well enough known, Cotto was about to face Mosley and had beaten up Judah, but in a fight he looked very vulnerable in. Hatton p4p was the best option for Floyd, and yes Hatton was bigger than Floyd on fightnight, and Floyd beat Hatton at his game. He stood in the pocket and outboxed Hatton on the inside.
-retirement I think Floyd honestly needed a break and he was stressed out then for hte same reasons beforementioned.
-I think Marquez was a difficult guy to come back against, and the best guy outside of Pacquiao in the sport. I think the size and everyone were blown out of proportion as Floyd wasn't that much bigger than Marquez in the ring, he was about 4 pounds heavier and an inch or two taller, I think it was Floyd's skill against that particular style that showed just how good Floyd really is.
-Then Floyd faced Mosley who many, many people felt would beat the crap out of Pacquiao, and IMO he still would give Pacquiao one hell of a run for his money, but besides being hurt early I think Floyd showed that he was vastly superior to a guy most people overestimated, at least in comparison to Floyd.

I think Floyd's career has been plagued with his victories being underappreciated, just like his opponents. The time and place Pacquiao beat his opponents never seems to get mentioned while Floyd's are constantly brought up. Pacquiao fought an older Barrera, Morales, and Marquez. He fought Cotto after Margarito, and Hatton after Mayweather. He faced a De La Hoya who wasn't there physically and a Clottey who wasn't there mentally(not just against him though). I still think Manny is amazing, but the stars aligned just right for his career to look the way it has. Floyd would have come out the same amount of fights with Barrera, Morales, and Marquez with no defeats and would be called the greatest 130 pounder ever. I think Pacquiao beats all the same opponents he faced except De La Hoya in their prime, but I think Floyd beats them worse.

People want to talk about Pacquiao starting his career at 16, but that was against crap, Floyd at that age was facing the best amateurs in the states. If Floyd had been allowed and wanted to go pro at 15-16 he would have as many belts in as many weight classes as Manny has.

We have different views on Manny Pacquiao as a fighter. He has experienced both losing and winning on his career. Some says he's the best and some he's not.

As I though that he has been so good on accepting new challenges on his career. Whatever downfall, he always stand out inorder to surpass it and look at him today. He's one of the best fighter. Also, he managed his money earnings very well. ;D

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Saddo

just watched this it brought back some great memories and reminded me of some big debates ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeIlFz7J2E

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Crazy thing is as you watch the fights and the years progress he gets better and better each time out....There is no such thing as an "OK" performance from Manny Pacquiao...He is just going to go all out in the best style he can...Plus he has started to use defense...Man the longer Floyd waits to fight him the worse it gets for Floyd

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Oscar Larios? Jorge Solis? I agree Manny has looked better and better, but I think part of that is effective strategic planning on the part of Roach and Arum.

Oscar was shot when he faced Manny because for whatever reason he couldn't rehydrate. Cotto wasn't the same offensive force he was a few years before, and Clottey's style was tailor made for Manny to beat. I think they had the perfect strategy to beat Hatton. Now I think Manny has to be a great fighter to accomplish what he did, but he definitely had circumstantial advantages when he faced them.

Not to what you wrote, but what somebody else did. I simply think Floyd didn't want to fight in 2010 again. The more he has been in the spotlight, the more it seems Floyd gets stressed out by it. Across his whole career there have been times where he has been less dedicated to fighting often than necessarily the opponents he has foughten. I think Mayweather has faced plenty of opposition, clearly not like Manny has, but Floyd has beaten at least 8 future hall of famers. That is more than almost anyone else except Manny of this era.

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Well yes you have valid points with the oppponents Manny faced and how they were choosen but the same can be said for Floyd...They both have some really big names they made sure they caught at the right time...I agree with Floyd being stressed out by the media but then again he seeks the media out? Kind of catch 22?....Floyd is stressed by the media because he is not really sure how to act.....

Inj truth nif Floyd was just "FLOYD" the Floyd I have met away from fans the Floyd that is known to give back to his community the guy would the this era most popular fighter....Floyd does not likie the villan role just with the way he gets around the media it is one that he finds easier to play

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I think Floyd realizes it makes him more money, but it probably also stresses the shit out of him always maintaining that facades, and we can see that it probably has become part of who he is, but I am guessing he probably hates that fact deep down, I don't see how anyone could like being that person.

I honestly think that while Floyd hasn't had the big names that Pacquiao has had during his career that Floyd hasn't sculpted his career the way some would have you believe. I just think people ignore facts

130- Floyd fought Hernandez and Corrales the two most dangerous guys at that weight.
135- FLoyd should have foughten Casamayor, but he fought a better fighter in Castillo, and fought him twice.
140- Floyd fought Gatti who more people than would be willing to admit thought would present problems for Floyd, but Tszyu wouldn't fight Floyd, and I honestly think Floyd already had Oscar in his sights and knew time was running out.
147- Floyd fought Judah because they were friends I think this was planned long before Judah lost to Baldomir, but Floyd I think felt it would be a good money making fight for him.
Then he fought Baldomir for the same amount of money he would have received against Margarito whom nobody knew about at that point, and Floyd was fighting the linear welterweight champion of the world, and if you look back at magazines and Emmanuel Steward they thought this would be an extremely difficult fight for Floyd to win.
154- Floyd fought Oscar after Oscar disposed of Mayorga in a devastating fashion in the worst beat down of Mayorga's life. Later even Mosley who would go on to KO Margarito didn't look anywhere near as good in stopping Mayorga. Anyways, back to my point Oscar who IMO was far better than given credit for at that time gave one of the best performances of his career, and was far better opponent then Margarito who was beaten by Paul Williams around then.
back to 147
-Paul Williams wasn't well enough known, Cotto was about to face Mosley and had beaten up Judah, but in a fight he looked very vulnerable in. Hatton p4p was the best option for Floyd, and yes Hatton was bigger than Floyd on fightnight, and Floyd beat Hatton at his game. He stood in the pocket and outboxed Hatton on the inside.
-retirement I think Floyd honestly needed a break and he was stressed out then for hte same reasons beforementioned.
-I think Marquez was a difficult guy to come back against, and the best guy outside of Pacquiao in the sport. I think the size and everyone were blown out of proportion as Floyd wasn't that much bigger than Marquez in the ring, he was about 4 pounds heavier and an inch or two taller, I think it was Floyd's skill against that particular style that showed just how good Floyd really is.
-Then Floyd faced Mosley who many, many people felt would beat the crap out of Pacquiao, and IMO he still would give Pacquiao one hell of a run for his money, but besides being hurt early I think Floyd showed that he was vastly superior to a guy most people overestimated, at least in comparison to Floyd.

I think Floyd's career has been plagued with his victories being underappreciated, just like his opponents. The time and place Pacquiao beat his opponents never seems to get mentioned while Floyd's are constantly brought up. Pacquiao fought an older Barrera, Morales, and Marquez. He fought Cotto after Margarito, and Hatton after Mayweather. He faced a De La Hoya who wasn't there physically and a Clottey who wasn't there mentally(not just against him though). I still think Manny is amazing, but the stars aligned just right for his career to look the way it has. Floyd would have come out the same amount of fights with Barrera, Morales, and Marquez with no defeats and would be called the greatest 130 pounder ever. I think Pacquiao beats all the same opponents he faced except De La Hoya in their prime, but I think Floyd beats them worse.

People want to talk about Pacquiao starting his career at 16, but that was against crap, Floyd at that age was facing the best amateurs in the states. If Floyd had been allowed and wanted to go pro at 15-16 he would have as many belts in as many weight classes as Manny has.

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The bolded part doesn't make sense especially when you said Pac fought an older version of Marquez. So the Marquez Pac fought in '04 and '08 is an older version than the one Floyd fought last year? The Morales victories can be questioned, but not he Barrerra one. Barrera was either top 3 or 5 p4p and on a 9 or 10 fight win streak at the time. Althought Barrera was not in his absolute prime, he wasn't that far remove from it, he was still good enough to beat Morales the 3rd fight who would go on to beat Pac later in their 1st fight. So i don't know how anyone can question the legitimacy of that win.

And at 15-16 he fought shit opponents, because maybe he didn't have an amateur career? Regardless, he still became a lineal champ at flyweight as a 19 year old teenager. In fact there is maybe 3 or 4 other guys in boxing history to accomplish that feat, to become the man at a division in their teenage years. That is one hell of an accomplishment at that age.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Saddo

just watched this it brought back some great memories and reminded me of some big debates ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeIlFz7J2E

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Crazy thing is as you watch the fights and the years progress he gets better and better each time out....There is no such thing as an "OK" performance from Manny Pacquiao...He is just going to go all out in the best style he can...Plus he has started to use defense...Man the longer Floyd waits to fight him the worse it gets for Floyd

---

Oscar Larios? Jorge Solis? I agree Manny has looked better and better, but I think part of that is effective strategic planning on the part of Roach and Arum.

Oscar was shot when he faced Manny because for whatever reason he couldn't rehydrate. Cotto wasn't the same offensive force he was a few years before, and Clottey's style was tailor made for Manny to beat. I think they had the perfect strategy to beat Hatton. Now I think Manny has to be a great fighter to accomplish what he did, but he definitely had circumstantial advantages when he faced them.

Not to what you wrote, but what somebody else did. I simply think Floyd didn't want to fight in 2010 again. The more he has been in the spotlight, the more it seems Floyd gets stressed out by it. Across his whole career there have been times where he has been less dedicated to fighting often than necessarily the opponents he has foughten. I think Mayweather has faced plenty of opposition, clearly not like Manny has, but Floyd has beaten at least 8 future hall of famers. That is more than almost anyone else except Manny of this era.

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Well yes you have valid points with the oppponents Manny faced and how they were choosen but the same can be said for Floyd...They both have some really big names they made sure they caught at the right time...I agree with Floyd being stressed out by the media but then again he seeks the media out? Kind of catch 22?....Floyd is stressed by the media because he is not really sure how to act.....

Inj truth nif Floyd was just "FLOYD" the Floyd I have met away from fans the Floyd that is known to give back to his community the guy would the this era most popular fighter....Floyd does not likie the villan role just with the way he gets around the media it is one that he finds easier to play

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I think Floyd realizes it makes him more money, but it probably also stresses the shit out of him always maintaining that facades, and we can see that it probably has become part of who he is, but I am guessing he probably hates that fact deep down, I don't see how anyone could like being that person.

I honestly think that while Floyd hasn't had the big names that Pacquiao has had during his career that Floyd hasn't sculpted his career the way some would have you believe. I just think people ignore facts

130- Floyd fought Hernandez and Corrales the two most dangerous guys at that weight.
135- FLoyd should have foughten Casamayor, but he fought a better fighter in Castillo, and fought him twice.
140- Floyd fought Gatti who more people than would be willing to admit thought would present problems for Floyd, but Tszyu wouldn't fight Floyd, and I honestly think Floyd already had Oscar in his sights and knew time was running out.
147- Floyd fought Judah because they were friends I think this was planned long before Judah lost to Baldomir, but Floyd I think felt it would be a good money making fight for him.
Then he fought Baldomir for the same amount of money he would have received against Margarito whom nobody knew about at that point, and Floyd was fighting the linear welterweight champion of the world, and if you look back at magazines and Emmanuel Steward they thought this would be an extremely difficult fight for Floyd to win.
154- Floyd fought Oscar after Oscar disposed of Mayorga in a devastating fashion in the worst beat down of Mayorga's life. Later even Mosley who would go on to KO Margarito didn't look anywhere near as good in stopping Mayorga. Anyways, back to my point Oscar who IMO was far better than given credit for at that time gave one of the best performances of his career, and was far better opponent then Margarito who was beaten by Paul Williams around then.
back to 147
-Paul Williams wasn't well enough known, Cotto was about to face Mosley and had beaten up Judah, but in a fight he looked very vulnerable in. Hatton p4p was the best option for Floyd, and yes Hatton was bigger than Floyd on fightnight, and Floyd beat Hatton at his game. He stood in the pocket and outboxed Hatton on the inside.
-retirement I think Floyd honestly needed a break and he was stressed out then for hte same reasons beforementioned.
-I think Marquez was a difficult guy to come back against, and the best guy outside of Pacquiao in the sport. I think the size and everyone were blown out of proportion as Floyd wasn't that much bigger than Marquez in the ring, he was about 4 pounds heavier and an inch or two taller, I think it was Floyd's skill against that particular style that showed just how good Floyd really is.
-Then Floyd faced Mosley who many, many people felt would beat the crap out of Pacquiao, and IMO he still would give Pacquiao one hell of a run for his money, but besides being hurt early I think Floyd showed that he was vastly superior to a guy most people overestimated, at least in comparison to Floyd.

I think Floyd's career has been plagued with his victories being underappreciated, just like his opponents. The time and place Pacquiao beat his opponents never seems to get mentioned while Floyd's are constantly brought up. Pacquiao fought an older Barrera, Morales, and Marquez. He fought Cotto after Margarito, and Hatton after Mayweather. He faced a De La Hoya who wasn't there physically and a Clottey who wasn't there mentally(not just against him though). I still think Manny is amazing, but the stars aligned just right for his career to look the way it has. Floyd would have come out the same amount of fights with Barrera, Morales, and Marquez with no defeats and would be called the greatest 130 pounder ever. I think Pacquiao beats all the same opponents he faced except De La Hoya in their prime, but I think Floyd beats them worse.

People want to talk about Pacquiao starting his career at 16, but that was against crap, Floyd at that age was facing the best amateurs in the states. If Floyd had been allowed and wanted to go pro at 15-16 he would have as many belts in as many weight classes as Manny has.

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Some good points, some so so and some just what anyother fighter would have /should have done in his situation so it matters none....But I agree on the fact whe it comes to the role he has brought himself into.....As for opponents...If you ever look at shit I post about Floyds resume I alwys add (Floyd has not fought a dangerous opp since his days at 135" meaning since those days he has fought good fighters but he also knew it was the right time to go after them....No so much a bad thing as it has happened through the history of boxing..

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Saddo

just watched this it brought back some great memories and reminded me of some big debates ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeIlFz7J2E

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Crazy thing is as you watch the fights and the years progress he gets better and better each time out....There is no such thing as an "OK" performance from Manny Pacquiao...He is just going to go all out in the best style he can...Plus he has started to use defense...Man the longer Floyd waits to fight him the worse it gets for Floyd

---

Oscar Larios? Jorge Solis? I agree Manny has looked better and better, but I think part of that is effective strategic planning on the part of Roach and Arum.

Oscar was shot when he faced Manny because for whatever reason he couldn't rehydrate. Cotto wasn't the same offensive force he was a few years before, and Clottey's style was tailor made for Manny to beat. I think they had the perfect strategy to beat Hatton. Now I think Manny has to be a great fighter to accomplish what he did, but he definitely had circumstantial advantages when he faced them.

Not to what you wrote, but what somebody else did. I simply think Floyd didn't want to fight in 2010 again. The more he has been in the spotlight, the more it seems Floyd gets stressed out by it. Across his whole career there have been times where he has been less dedicated to fighting often than necessarily the opponents he has foughten. I think Mayweather has faced plenty of opposition, clearly not like Manny has, but Floyd has beaten at least 8 future hall of famers. That is more than almost anyone else except Manny of this era.

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Well yes you have valid points with the oppponents Manny faced and how they were choosen but the same can be said for Floyd...They both have some really big names they made sure they caught at the right time...I agree with Floyd being stressed out by the media but then again he seeks the media out? Kind of catch 22?....Floyd is stressed by the media because he is not really sure how to act.....

Inj truth nif Floyd was just "FLOYD" the Floyd I have met away from fans the Floyd that is known to give back to his community the guy would the this era most popular fighter....Floyd does not likie the villan role just with the way he gets around the media it is one that he finds easier to play

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I think Floyd realizes it makes him more money, but it probably also stresses the shit out of him always maintaining that facades, and we can see that it probably has become part of who he is, but I am guessing he probably hates that fact deep down, I don't see how anyone could like being that person.

I honestly think that while Floyd hasn't had the big names that Pacquiao has had during his career that Floyd hasn't sculpted his career the way some would have you believe. I just think people ignore facts

130- Floyd fought Hernandez and Corrales the two most dangerous guys at that weight.
135- FLoyd should have foughten Casamayor, but he fought a better fighter in Castillo, and fought him twice.
140- Floyd fought Gatti who more people than would be willing to admit thought would present problems for Floyd, but Tszyu wouldn't fight Floyd, and I honestly think Floyd already had Oscar in his sights and knew time was running out.
147- Floyd fought Judah because they were friends I think this was planned long before Judah lost to Baldomir, but Floyd I think felt it would be a good money making fight for him.
Then he fought Baldomir for the same amount of money he would have received against Margarito whom nobody knew about at that point, and Floyd was fighting the linear welterweight champion of the world, and if you look back at magazines and Emmanuel Steward they thought this would be an extremely difficult fight for Floyd to win.
154- Floyd fought Oscar after Oscar disposed of Mayorga in a devastating fashion in the worst beat down of Mayorga's life. Later even Mosley who would go on to KO Margarito didn't look anywhere near as good in stopping Mayorga. Anyways, back to my point Oscar who IMO was far better than given credit for at that time gave one of the best performances of his career, and was far better opponent then Margarito who was beaten by Paul Williams around then.
back to 147
-Paul Williams wasn't well enough known, Cotto was about to face Mosley and had beaten up Judah, but in a fight he looked very vulnerable in. Hatton p4p was the best option for Floyd, and yes Hatton was bigger than Floyd on fightnight, and Floyd beat Hatton at his game. He stood in the pocket and outboxed Hatton on the inside.
-retirement I think Floyd honestly needed a break and he was stressed out then for hte same reasons beforementioned.
-I think Marquez was a difficult guy to come back against, and the best guy outside of Pacquiao in the sport. I think the size and everyone were blown out of proportion as Floyd wasn't that much bigger than Marquez in the ring, he was about 4 pounds heavier and an inch or two taller, I think it was Floyd's skill against that particular style that showed just how good Floyd really is.
-Then Floyd faced Mosley who many, many people felt would beat the crap out of Pacquiao, and IMO he still would give Pacquiao one hell of a run for his money, but besides being hurt early I think Floyd showed that he was vastly superior to a guy most people overestimated, at least in comparison to Floyd.

I think Floyd's career has been plagued with his victories being underappreciated, just like his opponents. The time and place Pacquiao beat his opponents never seems to get mentioned while Floyd's are constantly brought up. Pacquiao fought an older Barrera, Morales, and Marquez. He fought Cotto after Margarito, and Hatton after Mayweather. He faced a De La Hoya who wasn't there physically and a Clottey who wasn't there mentally(not just against him though). I still think Manny is amazing, but the stars aligned just right for his career to look the way it has. Floyd would have come out the same amount of fights with Barrera, Morales, and Marquez with no defeats and would be called the greatest 130 pounder ever. I think Pacquiao beats all the same opponents he faced except De La Hoya in their prime, but I think Floyd beats them worse.

People want to talk about Pacquiao starting his career at 16, but that was against crap, Floyd at that age was facing the best amateurs in the states. If Floyd had been allowed and wanted to go pro at 15-16 he would have as many belts in as many weight classes as Manny has.

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Floyd has himself to blame for this. If he is going to be vocal about being the greatest and the number 1 in the planet, then his choice of opponents will be under strict scrutiny. He has to back up his claim. He will definitely be criticized if he is not going to fight the best.

If he hasn't been egocentric, then the boxing fans would have been more forgiving.

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Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCorner

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Saddo

just watched this it brought back some great memories and reminded me of some big debates ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeIlFz7J2E

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Crazy thing is as you watch the fights and the years progress he gets better and better each time out....There is no such thing as an "OK" performance from Manny Pacquiao...He is just going to go all out in the best style he can...Plus he has started to use defense...Man the longer Floyd waits to fight him the worse it gets for Floyd

---

Oscar Larios? Jorge Solis? I agree Manny has looked better and better, but I think part of that is effective strategic planning on the part of Roach and Arum.

Oscar was shot when he faced Manny because for whatever reason he couldn't rehydrate. Cotto wasn't the same offensive force he was a few years before, and Clottey's style was tailor made for Manny to beat. I think they had the perfect strategy to beat Hatton. Now I think Manny has to be a great fighter to accomplish what he did, but he definitely had circumstantial advantages when he faced them.

Not to what you wrote, but what somebody else did. I simply think Floyd didn't want to fight in 2010 again. The more he has been in the spotlight, the more it seems Floyd gets stressed out by it. Across his whole career there have been times where he has been less dedicated to fighting often than necessarily the opponents he has foughten. I think Mayweather has faced plenty of opposition, clearly not like Manny has, but Floyd has beaten at least 8 future hall of famers. That is more than almost anyone else except Manny of this era.

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Well yes you have valid points with the oppponents Manny faced and how they were choosen but the same can be said for Floyd...They both have some really big names they made sure they caught at the right time...I agree with Floyd being stressed out by the media but then again he seeks the media out? Kind of catch 22?....Floyd is stressed by the media because he is not really sure how to act.....

Inj truth nif Floyd was just "FLOYD" the Floyd I have met away from fans the Floyd that is known to give back to his community the guy would the this era most popular fighter....Floyd does not likie the villan role just with the way he gets around the media it is one that he finds easier to play

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I think Floyd realizes it makes him more money, but it probably also stresses the shit out of him always maintaining that facades, and we can see that it probably has become part of who he is, but I am guessing he probably hates that fact deep down, I don't see how anyone could like being that person.

I honestly think that while Floyd hasn't had the big names that Pacquiao has had during his career that Floyd hasn't sculpted his career the way some would have you believe. I just think people ignore facts

130- Floyd fought Hernandez and Corrales the two most dangerous guys at that weight.
135- FLoyd should have foughten Casamayor, but he fought a better fighter in Castillo, and fought him twice.
140- Floyd fought Gatti who more people than would be willing to admit thought would present problems for Floyd, but Tszyu wouldn't fight Floyd, and I honestly think Floyd already had Oscar in his sights and knew time was running out.
147- Floyd fought Judah because they were friends I think this was planned long before Judah lost to Baldomir, but Floyd I think felt it would be a good money making fight for him.
Then he fought Baldomir for the same amount of money he would have received against Margarito whom nobody knew about at that point, and Floyd was fighting the linear welterweight champion of the world, and if you look back at magazines and Emmanuel Steward they thought this would be an extremely difficult fight for Floyd to win.
154- Floyd fought Oscar after Oscar disposed of Mayorga in a devastating fashion in the worst beat down of Mayorga's life. Later even Mosley who would go on to KO Margarito didn't look anywhere near as good in stopping Mayorga. Anyways, back to my point Oscar who IMO was far better than given credit for at that time gave one of the best performances of his career, and was far better opponent then Margarito who was beaten by Paul Williams around then.
back to 147
-Paul Williams wasn't well enough known, Cotto was about to face Mosley and had beaten up Judah, but in a fight he looked very vulnerable in. Hatton p4p was the best option for Floyd, and yes Hatton was bigger than Floyd on fightnight, and Floyd beat Hatton at his game. He stood in the pocket and outboxed Hatton on the inside.
-retirement I think Floyd honestly needed a break and he was stressed out then for hte same reasons beforementioned.
-I think Marquez was a difficult guy to come back against, and the best guy outside of Pacquiao in the sport. I think the size and everyone were blown out of proportion as Floyd wasn't that much bigger than Marquez in the ring, he was about 4 pounds heavier and an inch or two taller, I think it was Floyd's skill against that particular style that showed just how good Floyd really is.
-Then Floyd faced Mosley who many, many people felt would beat the crap out of Pacquiao, and IMO he still would give Pacquiao one hell of a run for his money, but besides being hurt early I think Floyd showed that he was vastly superior to a guy most people overestimated, at least in comparison to Floyd.

I think Floyd's career has been plagued with his victories being underappreciated, just like his opponents. The time and place Pacquiao beat his opponents never seems to get mentioned while Floyd's are constantly brought up. Pacquiao fought an older Barrera, Morales, and Marquez. He fought Cotto after Margarito, and Hatton after Mayweather. He faced a De La Hoya who wasn't there physically and a Clottey who wasn't there mentally(not just against him though). I still think Manny is amazing, but the stars aligned just right for his career to look the way it has. Floyd would have come out the same amount of fights with Barrera, Morales, and Marquez with no defeats and would be called the greatest 130 pounder ever. I think Pacquiao beats all the same opponents he faced except De La Hoya in their prime, but I think Floyd beats them worse.

People want to talk about Pacquiao starting his career at 16, but that was against crap, Floyd at that age was facing the best amateurs in the states. If Floyd had been allowed and wanted to go pro at 15-16 he would have as many belts in as many weight classes as Manny has.

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Floyd has himself to blame for this. If he is going to be vocal about being the greatest and the number 1 in the planet, then his choice of opponents will be under strict scrutiny. He has to back up his claim. He will definitely be criticized if he is not going to fight the best.

If he hasn't been egocentric, then the boxing fans would have been more forgiving.

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The thing is in his career it comes down to where you are biased to and towards and what you want to see.

In his entire career you could probably name 2 or 3 people he didn't fight. Like you can say you wish he fought Tszyu and you wish he fought Casamayor but that's mostly it. Cotto wasn't ready for him, and Margarito was top rank hype who now is focusing on pacquiao vs floyd which imo is a better matchup.

Anyway, it comes down to your bias, he was lineal champ at 130, and 135 you could say he wasn't the man at 140 and talk down Gatti, or you could say he was the lineal champ at 147 and beat the number 2 and number 1 guy at that weight within 3 fights and in his next fight took out the lineal champ of 140. And after retirement he took out the number 2 p4p guy but he was too small for him. But in the next fight he fought a very dangerous Mosley, whom people were saying would have massacred Berto, but a few months later say he was off too long to fight Floyd. Anyone can pick apart a fighter's victories or losses every way, It's not that Floyd hasn't fought the best it's that he is easiest to criticize, because he puts himself out. Even if Floyd had fought the above mentioned, something would be said as to why he beat them rather then getting the full credit for the victory. Everyone has a criticism. Look no further than his last fight, people were high on Mosley, saying he was the only guy stylistically that could beat Floyd, saying he would massacre Pacquiao and that Pacquiao ducked him, in other words, the fact is people were big upping Mosley before the Floyd fight, after Floyd beat him, he had too long of a layoff. Floyd is easier to hate, which is why people criticize him, his record is one of the best out there but if you listened to detractors you'd think it was full of bums and that he is overhyped. So it isn't that Floyd hasn't fought the best that people are hating on him, it's the fact he is easier to hate.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Oscar Larios? Jorge Solis?

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I see the '?' so pls let me post these.

Oscar Larios - 2 Division Champion ( 122, 126 ) and fought @ 130 prior to facing Manny at 130. Not as great but a legitimate champion 2 times at that.

Jorge Solis - Has accomplished less compared to Larios but is a Belt holder at the moment currently holding a WBA version at 130.


Pac's Resume is the best among the active fighters IMO.

Sasakul, Ledwabba, Barrera, Marquez, Morales, Larios, Dela Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey

All former or current Champions, ALL Were Dominated except JMM. Add Former title holders Jorge Julio, Jorge Solis and David Diaz for kickers.

Resume wise Pac is way ahead compared to Floyd. But Floyd must be the betting favorite if they fight. IF

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by milmascaras1

PSL,

a. do you actually in your mind think morales wasn't past his prime and a shot fighter when pacquiao won that 3rd fight? do you actually think de la hoya wasn't drained and way past his prime? what about hatton? funny how pacquiao beat mayweather's leftovers (oscar/hatton) and you think pacquiao did this great deed in beating these two. :rolleyes:

b. okay wise guy, everyone knows pacquiao walks on water in the philippines, right! so why is it then that the vast majority of pinoy boxing writers said pacquiao lost it. even your very own nonito donaire thought pacquiao lost. hmmmm!

c. it doesn't matter how many boxing writers thought oscar would have beaten pacquiao. they also didn't know oscar would have been a walking zombie either, did they? if pacquiao's team wanted to "test the waters" at lightweight, then why did they go for the weakest paper champion? if they truly wanted to "test the waters", they would have put him in with a non-title holder. truth is this, they just wanted that paper championship to better market pacquiao. nothing more, nothing less!

d. i am sick and tired of pacman's fans saying "he started at 106". well, guess what sonny, he's no longer 106 lbs.. many fighters in history started at a lower weight class only to fully grow into maturity at a higher weight. stop with this "but he's only a jr. flyweight" crap cause it isn't gonna fly anymore. the only reason he was fighting at that weight class was to get an unfair advantage over the much shorter flyweights, and he paid dearly for by getting KTFO twice by total bums.

e. this is a lie (about pacquiao agreeing fully to those blood tests) and you know it. mayweather's team NEVER negotiated with pacquiao again after pacquiao refused those blood tests. bob arum, with his PR machine wanted to save pacquiao a little face time by saying there were direct negotiations. arum made these lies up and you know it. again, quit believing everything you read. and tell me, when he made all those excuses (afraid of needles, gets weak, superstitious) and then turns around and does a complete 180 and agrees to the tests, are you really going to believe this crap? so all of the sudden he wasn't superstitious anymore, or afraid of needles etc...and you're buying that crap? pleeeese! :rolleyes:

f. hey einstein, this bogus fight is for a world title! what favor are you talking about. last time i checked, jr. middleweight's limit is at 154 and not 150 lbs. they might as well start making additional weight classes for pacquiao. if you were a true boxing fan, you would have to agree with me. if pacquiao thinks margarito is too big for him then why take the fight? i'll tell you why he did, it's because pacquiao has to have an unfair advantage in most of his fights. if pacquiao beats margarito, what's going to happen when he has to defend his title? go up to the next weight (middleweight) and demand another catchweight? what if paul williams is the no.1 contender at jr. middleweight? you think roach is going to risk pacquiao fighting williams? hell no, roach is much too cunning for that. this is why boxing is losing it's credibility. do you actually think the title pacquiao won vs. cotto is truly legit? you know, fighters of yesteryear would never have fallen for this crap. real, true boxing fans know better. hell, if any mexican fighter EVER demands a catchweight title fight, i will be the first to curse him out. i don't play that crap because i believe a boxer should win a title legitimately within the rules and not be given unfair advantages. i'm surprised cotto's fans aren't saying much about cotto's catchweight loss to pacquiao. i would have been livid if it were me. but then again, my guess is maybe some cotto's fans have tasted the pacquiao kool aid and like it!

g. look, the only reasons why pacquiao fought marquez twice was because marquez both times was the champion. but seriously now, whenever two great warriors fight a very controversially disputed fight, it's their duties as warriors to settle the dispute to see who really is the better fighter. take the marquez/vazquez trilogy, now those two little guys are true warriors. vazquez didn't have to take that 4th fight because the first three were so very hotly disputed and even though he had a 2-1 lead, many fans still thought marquez was better than him. but like a true warrior, he decided to take that 4th fight even though he physically hadn't really recovered from his trilogy. same with pacquiao, after that 2nd marquez fight, there was still ALOT of doubt as to who really won. about 75 pct. of all boxing writers worldwide thought marquez won. pacquiao should have manned up and taken that 3rd fight to erase that doubt. but now it's too late because marquez is already 37 years old and clearly on the downside of his career. but knowing pacquiao's past, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he suddenly decided to accept that long awaited 3rd fight. just a hunch!

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I'll address some of it for fun.

A: It's true Morales wasn't in his prime, but neither was Pac entering it yet. Regardless he took 2 out of 3. And if there was a hypothetical matchup of the 2 in their absolute prime and best, not too many people will say Morales beats Pac prime for prime, especially not with the way Erik likes to exchange.

B: I also thought Pacquiao lost it, for the 2nd fight. The 1st fight I thought he won. Regardless 2 very close fights. And close fights are not considered to be robberies. If you want to talk robberies, see Chavez-Whitaker.

C: De La Hoya got what he deserved for cherry picking a guy that had fought over 130 pounds only once in his career. In fact Oscar should have fought Margarito like he promised, but hey he thought it would be an easy money making fight for him beating up on Pacquiao. About Diaz, it's a fight to test the waters and eventually go on to fightiing the rest of the 135 pounders, but then Oscar offered a fight with him, then Pac went on to better things, it is rare in boxing today for a guy to all of a sudden move up and fight an elite fighter at the new weight class.

D: He started at Jr. flyweight as a 16 year old kid, you're making it sound like he wanted to start his career there to have an unfair advantage in having the physical tools.

E: Ross Greenburg the president of HBO sports did back up Arum and say negotiations took place when Ellerbe came out and said no such thing happened. It hasn't been verify but according to insiders Manny agreed to take the full test.

F: I'm not a fan of catchweight fights also, but it is what it is since Leonard started the bullshit in the 80s and other fighters have done the same thing.

You said you would curse a Mexican fighter out if he demanded a catchweight fight? The greatest Mexican boxer of all time weight drain Pernell Whitaker to 145 pounds for his WBC strap and got outboxed for 10 out of 12 rounds in San Antonio, most unbias boxing fans saw it as a 1 sided victory for Sweetpea. And De La Hoya, an Mexican-American fighter weight drain Hopkins to 156 pounds for his MW titles in 2004. You know you ain't cursing them.

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haha..milmascaras1 will not agree with you..;D

Good video. Looks like steroids really do pay off

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Good video. Looks like steroids really do pay off

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LOL. VD's still on some serious drugs. ;D

why is it when one of those mexicans get beat they are suddenly out of their prime?

so it pac loses he is suddenly not in his prime too or does it only apply to them mexicans?

They talk about they've been in too many wars, fuck that every pac fight since he was 16 is a war. He's in his thirties now and them mexicans either were or were only in thier late 20's.

rain,

do you actually think morales was in his prime before the first pacquiao fight? look, pacquiao may not have been in his "talent" prime but he sure was in his physical prime, and that you cannot deny. morales, was coming off a loss with barrera. and what about de la hoya? do you think de la hoya was in his physical prime when he fought pacquiao? the man still had needles marks when he got into the ring for trying to get rehydrated. he was a walking zombie and you know it. come on, sometimes drinking that kool-aid can be detrimental to your health, sonny.

i will say this, barrera was still in his prime when he fought pacquiao. it's just that barrera had zero answers for pacquiao high work rate.

as far as marquez is concerned, he, i believe he was in his prime when he fought pacquiao twice and it showed. i think as well as you do that marquez beat pacquiao in their rematch.

what other mexican fighters are you talking about? for me, only morales wasn't in his prime anymore vs. pacquiao.

as far as pacquiao vs. other fighters, david diaz was in his prime and he got destroyed too. ricky hatton physically was in his prime but i think the mayweather jr. loss took his soul from him. he just wasn't the same after that. against cotto, the same could be said about him. after his destruction against margarito, he was in his physical prime but was f'ed up in his head. and let's not even discuss the shameful display of cowardice of joshua clottey. the man had all the physical tools to give pacquiao a much tougher fight but he just tanked it and got an easy retirement payday.

so again, where are all these mexican fighters you talking about?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milmascaras1

rain,

do you actually think morales was in his prime before the first pacquiao fight? look, pacquiao may not have been in his "talent" prime but he sure was in his physical prime, and that you cannot deny. morales, was coming off a loss with barrera. and what about de la hoya? do you think de la hoya was in his physical prime when he fought pacquiao? the man still had needles marks when he got into the ring for trying to get rehydrated. he was a walking zombie and you know it. come on, sometimes drinking that kool-aid can be detrimental to your health, sonny.

i will say this, barrera was still in his prime when he fought pacquiao. it's just that barrera had zero answers for pacquiao high work rate.

as far as marquez is concerned, he, i believe he was in his prime when he fought pacquiao twice and it showed. i think as well as you do that marquez beat pacquiao in their rematch.

what other mexican fighters are you talking about? for me, only morales wasn't in his prime anymore vs. pacquiao.

as far as pacquiao vs. other fighters, david diaz was in his prime and he got destroyed too. ricky hatton physically was in his prime but i think the mayweather jr. loss took his soul from him. he just wasn't the same after that. against cotto, the same could be said about him. after his destruction against margarito, he was in his physical prime but was f'ed up in his head. and let's not even discuss the shameful display of cowardice of joshua clottey. the man had all the physical tools to give pacquiao a much tougher fight but he just tanked it and got an easy retirement payday.

so again, where are all these mexican fighters you talking about?

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Just a question: When do you think Pacquiao reached his prime and when did it start going down, or do you still consider him in his prime at this time?

The talk of Pac being one of the all time greats was started after his recent string of extremely over hyped wins. Pac is a great fighter...no question. He is exciting and has heart. But the last GREAT PRIME fighter he fought was Marquez. Juan had a draw in their first fight....though you can say he should have won. In their second fight Marquez AT THE VERY LEAST should have gotten a draw...though in the eyes of many he won that fight as well. He fought Morales 3 times...losing the first...and beating a shot fighter in the next 2 fights. That is the truth. Morales was nowhere near the fighter he once was in the their last 2 fights. I will simply give Pac credit for finishing off a fighter on the downturn of his career. The Barrera fights are tricky. No question Marco was distracted in their first fight. Would it have made a difference if he wasn't...maybe not. In their second fight...Barrera was gun shy. Some will argue that Barrera at that point was no longer the fighter he once was. Either way...Pac took care of business. I judge Manny by those fights. Those 3 Mexican fighters where all hall of fame fighters who where NOT at some point against Pac WAY past their prime. Manny deserves mad respect, win or lose, to have fought them. BUT...the hype that Manny is currently the greatest fighter in the world is based on his recent string of fights against cherry picked fighters who where all shot or had big issues. Hatton was always a one dimensional brawler. He was already showing that he was past it and was exposed by Mayweather. His incredible ballooning up and down in weight between fights certainly didn't help. Oscar was well past prime and incredibly weight drained against Pac. Roach is no dummy. He not only has picked fighters with big question marks recently...but he insures that they come in even weaker by fighting a few pounds lighter. Then there was Cotto. Cotto physically and mentally never recovered from the beating (most likely illegally) from Tony. And Clottey...the most punch shy fighter in the business...basically Pac fought a moving punching bag. And now you have Margerito. A disgraced fighter who has not stepped in the ring for well over a year. Now if Pac fought Mayweather and won...i will be the first to say he deserves all the accolades he has gotten recently. Until then...i ain't drinking the kool aid.

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

why is it when one of those mexicans get beat they are suddenly out of their prime?

so it pac loses he is suddenly not in his prime too or does it only apply to them mexicans?

They talk about they've been in too many wars, fuck that every pac fight since he was 16 is a war. He's in his thirties now and them mexicans either were or were only in thier late 20's.

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What are you talking about?! Both Barrera and Morales started fighting professionally in their teens as well. Have you forgotten how many WARS they where both involved in before they fought PAC????!!!! The only true wars Pac was involved in is when he fought the same Mexican fighters you mentioned. Before that he was fighting a bunch of tomato cans. Get your facts straight.