The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez

morales,

there isn't any doubt roberto duran is the greatest latin fighter of all-time. i never said chavez sr. was. in fact, there have been many great latin fighters in history and chavez is probably only top 5. i've always considered duran the greatest latino ever, no argument from me!

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1) his 100+ wins should NOT BE COMPARED to the records of other fighters, because he fought a bunch of tomato cans well into his 40-some fights

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TitoFan,
Do boxers become Hall of Famers just because they have lots of wins in their resume? It takes more than that and JCC proved to have more than just wins. MilMascaras mentioned those accomplishments.

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And before you or your homies chime in about JCC not having an amateur career... save it. We're not talking amateur careers here. We're talking about putting "W"s on a professional record. Whether or not you've had an amateur career should not come into the argument here. Why skew a professional record with a bunch of wins against nobodies? It's a pointless argument. You're wrong, and you know it

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Let's say a young guy starts working in the New York Stock Exchange with no education higher than high school working with bunch of guys with not only many years of college preparation but also experience in the market. Wouldn't you raise an eyebrow for that young guy who's selling more and accomplishing so much than all the other guys with 2 or 3 times more experience?

Did JCC beat many nobodies? Sure, but now see his accomplishments. Of course he deserves HOF status.

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Oh... I said two things. The other one is: 2) he's a jerk. A class-A, bonafide, 100% USDA jerk. Totally classless when he got whipped by Frankie Randall, and never giving any credit to anybody. AND... he's bringing Junior along the same way. He's the typical, over-bearing ex-fighter dad

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There will be lots of reasons why you simply don't like him but that doesn't take away the fact that he has many admirable accomplishments in the ring. I dislike some boxers out there but that doesn't blind me from seeing their skills and accomplishments.

See my comments below.

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Originally Posted by Chino

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1) his 100+ wins should NOT BE COMPARED to the records of other fighters, because he fought a bunch of tomato cans well into his 40-some fights

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TitoFan,
Do boxers become Hall of Famers just because they have lots of wins in their resume? It takes more than that and JCC proved to have more than just wins. MilMascaras mentioned those accomplishments.

And for the umpteenth time... I haven't argued that JCC doesn't belong in the HOF... have I.
Just not on "god status".

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And before you or your homies chime in about JCC not having an amateur career... save it. We're not talking amateur careers here. We're talking about putting "W"s on a professional record. Whether or not you've had an amateur career should not come into the argument here. Why skew a professional record with a bunch of wins against nobodies? It's a pointless argument. You're wrong, and you know it

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Let's say a young guy starts working in the New York Stock Exchange with no education higher than high school working with bunch of guys with not only many years of college preparation but also experience in the market. Wouldn't you raise an eyebrow for that young guy who's selling more and accomplishing so much than all the other guys with 2 or 3 times more experience?


Clever, but inappropriate. You can't compare a boxer fighting tomato cans and padding his professional record to a Wall Street upstart with a knack for picking stocks. It doesn't work that way, and comes across as a gigantic reach. But nice try.Did JCC beat many nobodies? Sure, but now see his accomplishments. Of course he deserves HOF status.

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Oh... I said two things. The other one is: 2) he's a jerk. A class-A, bonafide, 100% USDA jerk. Totally classless when he got whipped by Frankie Randall, and never giving any credit to anybody. AND... he's bringing Junior along the same way. He's the typical, over-bearing ex-fighter dad

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There will be lots of reasons why you simply don't like him but that doesn't take away the fact that he has many admirable accomplishments in the ring. I dislike some boxers out there but that doesn't blind me from seeing their skills and accomplishments.

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Again, you fail to see the point. I'm not denying his accomplishments. I'm... oh what's the point? We're just going to keep going round and round. If you can't see that JCC's 100+ wins can't and shouldn't be compared by mere numbers to other HOF fighters because JCC padded his record with over 40 patsies... there's nothing I can say that's gonna change that.

I WILL give you credit for arguing a bit more sensibly than in previous years, tho.

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Oh... I said two things. The other one is: 2) he's a jerk. A class-A, bonafide, 100% USDA jerk. Totally classless when he got whipped by Frankie Randall, and never giving any credit to anybody. AND... he's bringing Junior along the same way. He's the typical, over-bearing ex-fighter dad.

Those are my points, and nothing your stats say can change that.

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Your hypocrisy is hilarious. Yes Chavez was all that you say. While I don't mind that in a fighter, you wanna dislike him for that, that's fine. You have that right. What's funny is you hold that against Chavez but not Duran. Duran is an ATG fighter. As well as an ATG jerk. I mean the guy wasn't just a sore loser. He was sore winner. Watch the lead up as well as the end of Duran-Leonard 1 for Duran's classy ways.

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Originally Posted by milmascaras1

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

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the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times

do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise

just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag

Am I imagining things or has this thread been edited big time ???

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And for the umpteenth time... I haven't argued that JCC doesn't belong in the HOF... have I.

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Just not on "god status".

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I somehow don’t feel he is given a god status like Manny Pacquiao. All I read in the news is that he was a HOF guy and that was it.

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Clever, but inappropriate. You can't compare a boxer fighting tomato cans and padding his professional record to a Wall Street upstart with a knack for picking stocks. It doesn't work that way, and comes across as a gigantic reach. But nice try

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Then just stop to think about your typical boxer out there. How much experience does he have? Typically, more than 100 amateur fights, golden glove exposure, olympic exposure, and so on. So when a guy with no amateur career what so ever or other kind of exposure goes pro right from the start you are pretty much having an amateur guy with no experience facing guys with double/triple the experience. So if a guy like that has a belt already by fight #50, you are seeing an amateur with barely 50 fights as a champion. A newbie/rookie beating guys who have way more experience/exposure than him. As simple as that.

As for the 100 fights. I am not saying that is an accomplishment. There are guys who have way more fights in their resume but haven’t accomplished squat as JCC. Should it matter if JCC has 500 or 35 fights? What matters are his accomplishments (which MilMascaras mentioned).

Don’t pay attention to how many fights he has, pay attention to his accomplishments and if you agree he does have some admirable accomplishments then, there you go! Now you know why he’s a Hall of Famer.

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Originally Posted by Chino

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And for the umpteenth time... I haven't argued that JCC doesn't belong in the HOF... have I.

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Just not on "god status".

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I somehow don’t feel he is given a god status like Manny Pacquiao. All I read in the news is that he was a HOF guy and that was it.

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Clever, but inappropriate. You can't compare a boxer fighting tomato cans and padding his professional record to a Wall Street upstart with a knack for picking stocks. It doesn't work that way, and comes across as a gigantic reach. But nice try

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Then just stop to think about your typical boxer out there. How much experience does he have? Typically, more than 100 amateur fights, golden glove exposure, olympic exposure, and so on. So when a guy with no amateur career what so ever or other kind of exposure goes pro right from the start you are pretty much having an amateur guy with no experience facing guys with double/triple the experience. So if a guy like that has a belt already by fight #50, you are seeing an amateur with barely 50 fights as a champion. A newbie/rookie beating guys who have way more experience/exposure than him. As simple as that.

As for the 100 fights. I am not saying that is an accomplishment. There are guys who have way more fights in their resume but haven’t accomplished squat as JCC. Should it matter if JCC has 500 or 35 fights? What matters are his accomplishments (which MilMascaras mentioned).

Don’t pay attention to how many fights he has, pay attention to his accomplishments and if you agree he does have some admirable accomplishments then, there you go! Now you know why he’s a Hall of Famer.

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that's right, you're not making the 100 wins thing as an accomplishment, milmascaras is, and that's who Titofan called out on that crap, there are plenty of fighters out there who had had little amateur experience and gone on to have solid careers, hell in the days of John L. Sullivan and James J. Corbett there was no such thing as amateur boxing, no one is debating whether he's a hall of famer, don't get why you and mascaras can't process that bit of information

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by milmascaras1

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

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the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times

do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise

just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag

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Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't. Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by milmascaras1

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

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the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times

do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise

just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag

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Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't. Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example

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i agree with you completely, Donaire shouldn't be on the p4p list, his biggest win was against Darchinyan when Darchinyan himself didn't have the biggest wins of his career, but it's kinda ridiculous to keep using lack of amateur experience as an excuse for a guy to keep fighting the same level of tomato cans (granted that Chavez Jr has now jumped from fighting C Level fighters to B- Level fighters)

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by milmascaras1

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

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the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times

do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise

just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag

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Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't. Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example

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i agree with you completely, Donaire shouldn't be on the p4p list, his biggest win was against Darchinyan when Darchinyan himself didn't have the biggest wins of his career, but it's kinda ridiculous to keep using lack of amateur experience as an excuse for a guy to keep fighting the same level of tomato cans (granted that Chavez Jr has now jumped from fighting C Level fighters to B- Level fighters)

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On the job training is all it was. You don't like hearing about it cuz it don't suit you. But think about it. Your son and your nephew both turn pro. Your son never fought as an amateur. Your nephew on the other hand had over 100 amateur fights in different places in the world. The 2 opponents are 16-3 and 2-23. You gonna put your son in with the 16-3 fighter? No your not. Your nephew is more experience and better equipped to fight him. Your son gets the 2-23 fighter. Cuz even though there both are turning pro at the same time. There not equipped the same. You can't match them up the same.

JCC is an atg, sure he had a few bums on his resume here and there even after a certain point, but again who doesn't? Duran is 1 of my favorite fighters ever, but after he was LW champ, he still fought some guys with shit records. After the Buchannan fight for the LW title he fought a guy that was 11-3-1 and then fought a guy that was 12-10 before he fought De Jesus, he also had a few guys that were 0-3 and 0-2 a few times, and this is a prime Duran. Marvin Hagler had a very good amateur career, fought mostly bums with shit records for his first 49 fights before facing Anterfuomo. Some really atrocious records those fighters had, and Hagler is one of the top 3 fighters in my list.

So I don't know why people are pointing this out about JCC, it's not a big deal imo.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

JCC is an atg, sure he had a few bums on his resume here and there even after a certain point, but again who doesn't? Duran is 1 of my favorite fighters ever, but after he was LW champ, he still fought some guys with shit records. After the Buchannan fight for the LW title he fought a guy that was 11-3-1 and then fought a guy that was 12-10 before he fought De Jesus, he also had a few guys that were 0-3 and 0-2 a few times, and this is a prime Duran. Marvin Hagler had a very good amateur career, fought mostly bums with shit records for his first 49 fights before facing Anterfuomo. Some really atrocious records those fighters had, and Hagler is one of the top 3 fighters in my list.

So I don't know why people are pointing this out about JCC, it's not a big deal imo.

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This. I find a lot of people like to glorify the records of older fighters while more recent guys get given a lot of shit unfairly. An example would be seeing how the records of Oscar, Manny & Floyd actually stack up against those legends of the past, when you actually look at it they've got resumes that do stack up, it just doesn't suit their detractors to ackowledge it. I'll disagree about Hagler, I think he fought pretty damn good opp on the way up against guys who nobody wanted to fight, but his resume is not the beast many claim it to be if you consider that his most notable wins were against smaller guys coming up.

The rest I agree with. Even though I feel JCC gets a little overrated by some, he was actually a tremendously skilled fighter with his head movement & his work on the inside, it's just against quicker opposition (i.e. the Taylor & Oscar fights, the main ones people have seen) this wasn't always so apparent. It's like the idea that Duran was some face-first brawling pressure fighter that gets pushed around because people have only seen the Leonard & Hearns fights :rolleyes:

As for the OP, not a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, get a grip. More than anyone else on this year's ballot (& I include Tyson in that), he deserves the first vote. Would you really have Kostya Tszyu in before him :-\:-X

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Originally Posted by Manju

With JC Superstar back in the news as a 1st timer on the HOF ballet, I’d like to make the case against him. I think he deserves HOF status to be sure, but perhaps not on the first ballet. Here’s why.

The upper-echelon of the cream of the crop should be reserved for those who successfully fought other potential HOFers in their prime, i.e. those in similar weight-classes and on the 1b-4-1b lists of the day. If no such fighters were available, then of course the candidate should not be punished. But if they were and the boxer in question did not fight them, then that should be considered a demerit (unless its apparent the other fighter was doing the dodging). It is here that JCC falls short.

Let’s look at his best available completion.

1. Sweet Pea. He was the best fighter of the era and was of similar size to JCC. Chavez lost decisively. I know he benefited from the judges generosity, but history is another judge. Just as important, he never fought Pernell again. Suspicious.

2. Meldrick Taylor. JCC’s shining moment, imo. He showed his deceptive power, his chin, and won the fight morally (ie Meldrick was a beaten man). In a just world Taylor would’ve gotten the decision and then gotten KOed in an immediate rematch. But in what became a pattern, there was no immediate rematch (though I’m uncertain if JCC really did the dodging here) and the 2nd fight happened when Taylor was shot. So, JCCs best performance against a fellow great is arguably a loss.

3. Frankie Randall. Randall was not a lb-4-lber but he makes the list by virtue of being the first to officially beat Chavez. He was beating him again in the rematch when Chavez quit and got a gift. The 3rd match was not held until Randall was shot. Severe discredit is due here. Another decisive loss for Chavez.

4. ODLH. JCC is forgiven here b/c he was past his prime. But he was not that past his prime and he got whupped. Chavez appeared to quit in the 2nd fight. Another patern.

5. Azumah Nelson: Nelson was of similar size to JCC, was a great boxer-brawler, a 1b-4-1ber, and they never fought.

6. Buddy McGirt: like Nelson, similar size, great boxer, was considered formidable after schooling the great Simon Brown, but never got a shot at Chavez

7. Simon Brown: slightly bigger than the other guys but still within range of JCC. Never fought.

8, 9, and 10 : Norris, Trinidad, and Starling: JCC can be forgiven for not fighting these bigger guys. But he needed something on his resume, they were available, and they weren’t that much bigger.

So there you have it. These 10 boxers were better than any boxer JCC defeated. Those include Haugen (who had already lost to Paz twice and Camacho), Ramirez (already lost to Haugen) Roger Mayweather, Lockerage, and Camacho (all of whom had suffered loses prior). They were good fighters, and JCC dominated them. But they were not the best available.

Against the best available, JCC either lost, quit, was gifted, or did not fight.

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That's fine piece of work.