Modern day ATG.

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05-16-2011, 11:37 PM
Violent Demise

Re: Modern day ATG.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.
05-17-2011, 01:32 AM
JonesJrMayweather

Re: Modern day ATG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.

You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...
05-17-2011, 01:40 AM
marbleheadmaui

Re: Modern day ATG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.

You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...

Perhaps because it had already been addressed earlier in the thread?
05-17-2011, 01:46 AM
JonesJrMayweather

Re: Modern day ATG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.

You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...

Perhaps because it had already been addressed earlier in the thread?

Where does VD state fighters that answer the question?
05-17-2011, 02:05 AM
Violent Demise

Re: Modern day ATG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.

You said all of that, only to still not answer the question...

What's the point of repeating an answer already given? Marble's answer was on point.
05-19-2011, 06:54 AM
CutMeMick

Re: Modern day ATG.

Is it that time of year again? ???
The whole "Who has Lopez beat?" "What makes him an ATG?" spectacle :beat:

I've gone over this one oooohhh I don't know 4/5 times now.
You can easily tell who's taken the time to look at his career (and I don't mean numbers) and who's just talking to talk.

Anywho here you go, from one of those 4/5 times that I've typed this;

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Something that annoys me is when people say he didn't have hall of fame competition which is why his record is not impressive.

The thing is the lower weights especially Straweight is not on the same boat as the rest of the divisions. They are not backed financially and even by the fans they are not supported as much as the higher weights.

Here's what I mean, fighters in the lower weights get title shots sooner/earlier in their careers then they do at the higher weights because of the short lived careers.

So you'll look at a Straweights record and it'll look like 21-3 and you'll say well what a short career. But when you actually study his record you'll see he fought something like 8 title bouts won 5 lost 3 and beat some top names. That may not look to be hall of fame career compared to Hagler or Duran but again it's because the careers at the lower weights are shorter. Take the recently retired Eagle Den Junlaphan retired at 18-2 monster numbers huh? 20 fights total. If you like at it like that then of course his career is nothing compared to Monzon & Ali. But Eagle fought 9 title bouts won 7 lost 2. His career is hall of fame worthy for the lower weights.

I think the Hall needs to update/revise a lot of things as far as their induction requirements. You can't measure careers when the lower weights are not on the same boat it's unfair to them IMO.

Anyway back to Lopez and his opposition.
I think he fought the best opposition available to him Ohashi, Saman, Kermin, Sanchez, Alvarez, Grisby, Vorapin & Petelo.
IMO all hall material for the small guys. So to me when I read things like he never fought top/hall opposition I just can't help but think that the people want to see opponents who had long careers with titles and all that but it's not the case in most cases.

Even today I mean in recent times did Calderon have any hall of fame names? Shit I just remembered he himself fought the same Sanchez, that Lopez fought yrs. ago...
Calderon moved up in weight and fought Cazares whos the biggest name on his resume. Yutaka himself, I think Yutakas def. an ATG for lower weights.

And another one here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutMeMick

The lower weights are weak in numbers as far as MONEY goes and backing of fans, they don't have the financial back up from networks and promoters like the bigger guys do.
I mean come on the 1st million dollar pay day to the little guys was Carbajal-Gonzalez II, when Carbajal was paid thatmuch this was in 1994 by this time Tyson, Holy, ODLH were already spending all of their millions.

The careers will be impossible to match up vs. the bigger guys even today.

I think you would agree that a fighters greatness is not only measured by his opposition but by an all around career.

Here's what I'm trying to get at.
The IBHoF has inducted 212 fighters take a wild guess at how many of those 212 fighters are either Minimumweight or Light Flyweight (which are the 2 div. Lopez fought in)
The answer is 3 not including Lopez. 3 Fighters that is insane considering how many great fighters have been in those 2 divisions.
I'll even go a step further including Flyweights there are a total of 4 Modern and 6 Oldtimers that gives it a total overall of 13 fighters not including Lopez out of 212.
Do you guys really believe there are ONLY 13 fighters in those 3 weight classes who should be in the Hall?

I think not, fighters like Jung-Koo Chang, Yoko Gushiken, Masao Ohba, Luis Estaba, Hilario Zapata, Myung-Yoo Wu, Chartchai Chionoi, Santos Laciar, Betulio Gonzalez, Chana Porpaion and Rosendo Alvarez... I can go on and on and these fighters deserve the credit just as much and certainly more then 1 or 2 who ARE IN the hall already. ;)

But sadly the hall keeps pushing them to the back burner.
So when people ask what great fighter does he have on his resume that makes him great? It's like not even fair to ask that because if you are going by the hall and what's said then that makes it none. But if you take the time to look at his opposition and find out about their careers you'll see he did fight great/ATG opposition according to the lower weights.

But if you the person would like rate his opponents and go through records and take the time to look for his fights of some of his opponents the way I have then I def. invite anyone to see the following opponets and take the time to find them on video and do a bit of research on these guys.
Ohashi, Saman, Kermin, Sanchez, Alvarez, Grisby, Vorapin & Petelo.

I just think overall the lower weight guys are assed out when it comes to ratings, paydays, status etc. etc. etc.
If people would take the time to study them and get footage things would be different. But in the end again, I blame the hall for letting this happen.

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