Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
Master
Yes, Ortiz is a legitimate fighter at the wight, Marquez is a great fighter at the lower weight.
Again, not being rhetorical, but Marquez has only lost one fight at 145, and that was against the #1 p4p fighter in the world. How do we know that Marquez can't be effective against someone he's already been effective against at a lower weight at a higher weight? It would be one thing if he lost another fight against someone at 140 or 147. He's arguably won more rounds against Pacquiao than Pacquiao has against him.
Shza's point is well-taken though. Maybe Marquez just is past his prime a bit regardless of weight.
Need I remind - Ortiz isn't exactly a great fighter above 140 either. He quit against Maidana and drew against Peterson. He did, of course, beat Berto, but most people felt like Berto was overrated anyway. So, he doesn't exactly have an unbelievable resume.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Love Ortizs rebound, his seemingly new found fire and intensity, but frankly he has yet to show that he commands a high profile top tier spotlight with world class guys. Yeh, he's big too but flaws remain and they were glaring vs a frozen Berto. The last thing he needs is to buy into the reborn mantra and find himself neck deep vs superior boxers than a Peterson and far more potent hitters then Berto. I think both Manny and Floyd handle him soundly right now unless both have slipped badly. For a earned payday he deserves it, but for longterm he should keep perspective and improve.
Jmm is old, his wear and tear is worn on his sleeve and while I hate the idea of him bulking up too high, I think with his experience and coming in smart with stamina in mind he will prove to be more effective than Ortiz. You can't substitute world class experience , rilvary and history between these two. If I had to pick between the two I give Marquez a far better shot here. He knows himself as a fighter much more so physically and mentally and equally knows Manny regardless of it being lastyear or many years ago.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
To those who see the Pacquiao-Marquez fight as JMM fighting above his ideal weight, I'm just curious. What do you think is Marquez ideal fighting weight (and I'm not talking about his weight the day before the fight)? And can you tell us at which fights JMM used those weights?
Ortiz had been knocked down a few times in his fight with Berto. If that was Pacquiao he was in with, he would not have lasted the full 12 rounds. Whereas Marquez hasn't been beaten by anyone not named Pacquiao or Mayweather since 2006. If we are to remove what some consider to be his controversial loses (to Pacquiao and Chris John) and not counting the loss to Mayweather, then he hasn't loss convincingly since 1999. I give experience here more credit than the age factor so I would say Marquez is a better opponent than Ortiz for Manny.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Both Spicoli and Neutral made some good points, I think.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Marquez hasn't beaten anyone above LW really, whilst Ortiz has. Ortiz is the more proven opponent. The weight jump of Marquez is something none of us really know about. Ortiz at least is a natural in his weight class. He is a big dude, Marquez quite simply isn't.
The Pac fight should have been at 140 really.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
alhough pac practically comes in about the same weight at fight night, i think the difference is he doesn't have to drain himself to make weight. aside from becoming better technically and developing his right hand, manny is just so much stronger now that he doesn't have to starve himself.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
miles
Marquez hasn't beaten anyone above LW really, whilst Ortiz has. Ortiz is the more proven opponent. The weight jump of Marquez is something none of us really know about. Ortiz at least is a natural in his weight class. He is a big dude, Marquez quite simply isn't.
The Pac fight should have been at 140 really.
even at 140 i think pac blows him away. the competitive fight would be at 135 where he'll struggle with the weight.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
KKisser
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Marquez hasn't beaten anyone above LW really, whilst Ortiz has. Ortiz is the more proven opponent. The weight jump of Marquez is something none of us really know about. Ortiz at least is a natural in his weight class. He is a big dude, Marquez quite simply isn't.
The Pac fight should have been at 140 really.
even at 140 i think pac blows him away. the competitive fight would be at 135 where he'll struggle with the weight.
Perhaps, but 140 was the only reasonable fair option. We haven't even got that. Manny is playing tough and I guess he wants to say that he beat Marquez the one time.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Then why were people poo pooing Mayweathers win against JMM citing he was 2 heavy and slow and old? It's really interesting to me(not directing this to you) but how do people take the ether and put on blinders when PAC picks an opponent is beyond me?
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I think there are two things for this. One, Marquez was too small for Floyd especially considering it was his first fight above 135. The criticism is warranted. Also, remember the times. The Marquez fight was Floyd's first fight back after "retiring" when he could have faced a prime/pre-Margarito Cotto. The fight everyone was excited about. Some of the hate was backlash especially given that Floyd's last win was over Hatton who Floyd fought at 147 even though Hatton was considerably more effective at 140.
Don't discount that fact the same criticism is fairly leveled at Manny by many posters on this board. To me, the main difference is that styles make fights and Manny has proved to have struggled with Marquez in the past. You are correct though that the reason Manny is favored in the fight is that the fight is at 145, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. However, I don't believe Marquez will somehow have forgotten how to beat Manny. It may be that he is too old and slow and not big enough to do so, but his experience in neutralizing Manny won't just completely go away.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Marquez hasn't beaten anyone above LW really, whilst Ortiz has. Ortiz is the more proven opponent. The weight jump of Marquez is something none of us really know about. Ortiz at least is a natural in his weight class. He is a big dude, Marquez quite simply isn't.
The Pac fight should have been at 140 really.
See I think you're struggling getting past the fact that the fight would have been better at 135/140 to see that at any weight Marquez gives Manny a run for his money. Marquez is just Manny's kryptonite. He has Manny's number to an extent. Now the weight, age, wear and tear, make Manny the favorite, but Marquez will win rounds, I guarantee, and he may pull an upset, although I doubt it.
We don't even really know if Ortiz is a natural welterweight because like Marquez he's only faced ONE boxer at that weight. Now, he happened to win a great fight, but it was against Berto, an above average boxer, but in no way shape or form on Mayweather's level. In the two fights previous to that, Ortiz faired poorly, average at best, against fighters at 140. One of which was Lamont Peterson, a borderline middle of the road junior weltweight. To me, it is much easier to imagine Pacquiao having troubles with Marquez, someone he's struggled with in the past, than Mayweather with Ortiz, someone who struggled against Lamont Peterson.
Re: Would Ortiz have been a better opponent for Manny than Marquez?
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Originally Posted by
JT Rock
I wish JMM well in this fight because I genuinely in my heart of hearts thought he beat PAC 2x not because I dislike PAC. I'll never forget the look on his face when his name was announced the winner Far from a guy that looked like he won matter fact it looked like he won the lottery when they announced it.. I would never call it a robbery by any means cause it was close but nonetheless I think this would be far more sweeter for Marquez to beat PAC now than it would have been years ago...
I agree with your assessment of Pac's facial expression when he was announced the winner in their secoond fight. It appears to me that Manny thinks he may have loss and was hoping for a draw so he was ecstatic when he won. Marquez was visibly upset with the decision.
Whereas in the anmouncement of a draw in their first fight, Manny is the one who was visibly upset whereas Marquez showed no emotion. In there, it appears that JMM did not expect to win and was relieved to get a draw.
Here's the video of the announcements. Jump to 3:40 on both.
Pacquaio-Marquez 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJx5FNhhTio
Pacquiao-Marquez 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3kZz34XeE
My take on this is that the second fight could have been a draw and the first fight a win for Pacquiao. It is just sweet justice that Manny got the win in the second fight for the win that was taken away from him in the first due to an error in scoring by one of the judges.
