Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
Is BHOP's continued success moving you at all? How about if Kessler gets another big win?
Calzaghe does deserve respect for those 2 wins especially for Kessler in my eyes. He was the other top fighter at the weight and Calzaghe beat him fair and square.
The win against Bhop was contentious (i had JC winning for what it's worth) it wasn't a clear victory and will be one that people will argue about but i agree it does look better the more Hopkins goes on to achieve. Call me crazy but he could have gone for a rematch and beat him more convincingly which would have done him wonders. I think there was time on his side for a couple more fights too but he chose to retire i think the hunger was dwindling fast as the money rolled in.
The biggest names on his record are Kessler (good win), Hopkins (good but contentious), Roy jones (shell), Reid (people still argue about it), Eubank (on his way out, took fight at short notice), Jeff Lacy (did JC ruin him or was he just a hype job in the first place?)
There are other good names on his record but not good enough to call him a great for beating them.
He could have gone over to Germany beat Ottke even if it meant taking the short end on the pay cheque.
It's not all his own fault, injuries can't be helped and he can only fight what is put in front of him 1 of the greatest British boxers of all time and will be in the IBHOF as he is more qualified than some who are already in there, good for him but yes for me overrated.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
I agree with Tszyu and by association Hatton.
Currently
Segura is the most overatted currently. Ridiculous that he's p4p for beating up a 38 year old tiny tiny tiny man with no power at all.(he'll be 2012's Christian Mijares and will lose his title to a 11-3-1 phenom)
Sergio Martinez
Nonito Donaire
Frankie Gavin
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I agree with Tszyu and by association Hatton.
Currently
Segura is the most overatted currently. Ridiculous that he's p4p for beating up a 38 year old tiny tiny tiny man with no power at all.(he'll be 2012's Christian Mijares and will lose his title to a 11-3-1 phenom)
Sergio Martinez
Nonito Donaire
Frankie Gavin
Agree Hatton was a little overrated i wonder if he ever thinks it would have been a good idea to not balloon so badly between fights, not that it would have affected the outcome of his losses greatly but maybe would have prolonged his career slightly.
Too early to say about Gavin at the moment i think he's lazy and needs a good kick up the arse and possibly a different trainer, I have a feeling he is the boss of Farnell who is just happy to have him on his books and doesn't want to rock the boat. He needs a no nonsense trainer and i dont think Farnell is that trainer.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Fair play mate, but I don't buy the argument about his opposition. I really don't see who was operating at SMW during his reign that he should've fought and didn't - except perhaps Ottke and JC would've outclassed him very comfortably imo. I'm not saying JC's oppoistion was great, but I wanna know who he should've fought and didn't - remembering it takes 2 to tango.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I agree with Tszyu and by association Hatton.
Currently
Segura is the most overatted currently. Ridiculous that he's p4p for beating up a 38 year old tiny tiny tiny man with no power at all.(he'll be 2012's Christian Mijares and will lose his title to a 11-3-1 phenom)
Sergio Martinez
Nonito Donaire
Frankie Gavin
Sergio Martinez & Nonito Donaire are overrated? I don't understand that at all, so who's rated above them?
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Should be a good topic for discussion. Been done before, but still fun nonetheless.
I'll start with
Kostya Tszyu
Best win? Judah?
Duffed up by Vince Philips! (who was coming off a loss and 2 losses in 4)
Duffed up by Hatton!
Very very good fighter and the best of his time, but in all time terms I don't think he belongs with Aaron Pryor, Barney Ross, Wilfredo Benitez, PBF, Pac and maybe Cervantes and Canzoneri.
It's very hard to take a thread like this seriously when you start with a guy who was best of his time for 10 years, was undisputed champion and fought 16 world champions (50% of all opponents he faced) beating a former world champion in just his 4th pro fight!
On that logic of Tszyu losing to Phillips you might as well include Carlos Monzon who lost to a guy called Felipe Cambeiro 43-16-4 in 1964 knocking Monzon down 3 times along the way. I guess Monzon is over rated:rolleyes:
Or Alexis Arguello who inexplicably lost to Vilomar Fernadez 30-16-2 in 1977 after stringing togther 26 consecutive wins since his previous defeat!
My point is fighters lose fights, it's how they come back from defeat that makes them real champions. Tszyu was remarkable after losing to Phillips, he dominated a division that at one time was lauded as the best in the world, it is only years later that people say it wasn't that strong? He destroys former lightweight Champion Miguel Angel Gonzalez (who defended that title 10 times) and was fresh from fights with DLH and a draw with JCC, he KO's Judah who was in his prime and a prohibitive favourite, he stops Mitchell (twice) who had not lost for 7 years prior and all this means he is overrated?
What a shame fighters such as Hamed and Hatton decided to take their bat and ball and go home after tasting defeat.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE THIRD MAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Should be a good topic for discussion. Been done before, but still fun nonetheless.
I'll start with
Kostya Tszyu
Best win? Judah?
Duffed up by Vince Philips! (who was coming off a loss and 2 losses in 4)
Duffed up by Hatton!
Very very good fighter and the best of his time, but in all time terms I don't think he belongs with Aaron Pryor, Barney Ross, Wilfredo Benitez, PBF, Pac and maybe Cervantes and Canzoneri.
It's very hard to take a thread like this seriously when you start with a guy who was best of his time for 10 years, was undisputed champion and fought 16 world champions (50% of all opponents he faced) beating a former world champion in just his 4th pro fight!
On that logic of Tszyu losing to Phillips you might as well include Carlos Monzon who lost to a guy called Felipe Cambeiro 43-16-4 in 1964 knocking Monzon down 3 times along the way. I guess Monzon is over rated:rolleyes:
Or Alexis Arguello who inexplicably lost to Vilomar Fernadez 30-16-2 in 1977 after stringing togther 26 consecutive wins since his previous defeat!
My point is fighters lose fights, it's how they come back from defeat that makes them real champions. Tszyu was remarkable after losing to Phillips, he dominated a division that at one time was lauded as the best in the world, it is only years later that people say it wasn't that strong? He destroys former lightweight Champion Miguel Angel Gonzalez (who defended that title 10 times) and was fresh from fights with DLH and a draw with JCC, he KO's Judah who was in his prime and a prohibitive favourite, he stops Mitchell (twice) who had not lost for 7 years prior and all this means he is overrated?
What a shame fighters such as Hamed and Hatton decided to take their bat and ball and go home after tasting defeat.
It's very hard to take a response seriously that comes from an Australian ;D
It's just opinions mate, I think he was brillaint, but still overrated.
And a petty Tszyu didn't pick up his bat and ball after losing to Hatton ;) He was still realtively young had had less fights than Hatton (even at that point) and had not exactly been in many wars in order to make him a worn fighter ;)
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I agree with Tszyu and by association Hatton.
Currently
Segura is the most overatted currently. Ridiculous that he's p4p for beating up a 38 year old tiny tiny tiny man with no power at all.(he'll be 2012's Christian Mijares and will lose his title to a 11-3-1 phenom)
Sergio Martinez
Nonito Donaire
Frankie Gavin
Sergio Martinez & Nonito Donaire are overrated? I don't understand that at all, so who's rated above them?
Well according to the Ring magazine only Manny, and thats my point.
Martinez hasn't done a great deal in my opinion to prove he's the second best fighter on the planet. Went 1-1 with Paul Williams, drew with Cintron and outpointed an out of form and alcoholic Kelly Pavlik.
I've seen nothing from him that makes me think he could have beaten a prime Hopkins at the weight, or even a prime Pavlik. He's a good fighter who has happened to make his way to the middleweight division at exactly the right time.
Donaire I believe may well prove himself to be great, he looks to have sublime skills, but he hasn't acomplished much in comparison to the other top guys, although his win over Montiel definitely propelled him up there.
Still I'm not yet convinced he's much ahead of guys like Gamboa orJuan Manuel Lopez and he may well yet get found out as he faces tougher opposition.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Fair play mate, but I don't buy the argument about his opposition. I really don't see who was operating at SMW during his reign that he should've fought and didn't - except perhaps Ottke and JC would've outclassed him very comfortably imo. I'm not saying JC's oppoistion was great, but I wanna know who he should've fought and didn't - remembering it takes 2 to tango.
Ottke, Jones (earlier), Frankie Liles and Antwun Echols would sure have spiced up that resume.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I agree with Tszyu and by association Hatton.
Currently
Segura is the most overatted currently. Ridiculous that he's p4p for beating up a 38 year old tiny tiny tiny man with no power at all.(he'll be 2012's Christian Mijares and will lose his title to a 11-3-1 phenom)
Sergio Martinez
Nonito Donaire
Frankie Gavin
Funny;D
Add DeGale & Audley Harrison to that list would you?
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Fair play mate, but I don't buy the argument about his opposition. I really don't see who was operating at SMW during his reign that he should've fought and didn't - except perhaps Ottke and JC would've outclassed him very comfortably imo. I'm not saying JC's oppoistion was great, but I wanna know who he should've fought and didn't - remembering it takes 2 to tango.
Ottke, Jones (earlier), Frankie Liles and Antwun Echols would sure have spiced up that resume.
How many times to I/We have to explain about Echols and Liles :-\ I mentioned Ottke and RJJ was not ever at SMW during Calzgahe's reign.
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Fair play mate, but I don't buy the argument about his opposition. I really don't see who was operating at SMW during his reign that he should've fought and didn't - except perhaps Ottke and JC would've outclassed him very comfortably imo. I'm not saying JC's oppoistion was great, but I wanna know who he should've fought and didn't - remembering it takes 2 to tango.
Ottke, Jones (earlier), Frankie Liles and Antwun Echols would sure have spiced up that resume.
How many times to I/We have to explain about Echols and Liles :-\ I mentioned Ottke and RJJ was not ever at SMW during Calzgahe's reign.
Let's try the actual, ya know, FACTS.
1996 Jones was still at 168. He moved up in 1997 the same year Calzaghe wins a strap.
1998 Liles is ranked #1, Calzaghe #2
1999 Calzaghe #1, Liles #7
2001 Calzaghe #2, Echols #4
2002 Calzaghe #1, Echols #3
2003 Calzaghe #1, Echols #4
2004 Calzaghe #1, Echols #4
Now do you NOT think those names would have improved Calzaghe's resume?
Re: Fighters that you (controversially) think are overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
armyash
Joe Calzaghe for me
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Fair play mate, but I don't buy the argument about his opposition. I really don't see who was operating at SMW during his reign that he should've fought and didn't - except perhaps Ottke and JC would've outclassed him very comfortably imo. I'm not saying JC's oppoistion was great, but I wanna know who he should've fought and didn't - remembering it takes 2 to tango.
Ottke, Jones (earlier), Frankie Liles and Antwun Echols would sure have spiced up that resume.
How many times to I/We have to explain about Echols and Liles :-\ I mentioned Ottke and RJJ was not ever at SMW during Calzgahe's reign.
Let's try the actual, ya know, FACTS.
1996 Jones was still at 168. He moved up in 1997 the same year Calzaghe wins a strap.
1998 Liles is ranked #1, Calzaghe #2
1999 Calzaghe #1, Liles #7
2001 Calzaghe #2, Echols #4
2002 Calzaghe #1, Echols #3
2003 Calzaghe #1, Echols #4
2004 Calzaghe #1, Echols #4
Now do you NOT think those names would have improved Calzaghe's resume?
No, not at all!! And I will now explain why.....
Liles only fought a couple of times after 97, one of which he got Koed by Mitchell, whom Calzaghe took out in less than 9 minutes, begs the question why would Liles even have been on the radar. Echols: He probably had one decent win around that time (Brewer) after having already lost he then went on to lose to world beating Anthony Mundine and Kingsley Ikeke. Echols never deserved a shot and doesn't belong in the same breath.
P.S As I said RJJ was never a SMW during JCs reign. He was LHW champion from 96. Let's face it, if they had've fought Jones would've one pretty handily
