Printable View
Exactly! Even if we are to assume Mosley is 100% shot and won't surprise anyone; he's still crafty and has never been stopped, and has beaten as many great fighters as Alvarez has live bodies. Had Mosley not looked quite so pedestrian in his last couple of fights people would probably be wondering whether Alvarez is ready for the step up. To say that this is a dissapointing move from Alvarez is really quite bizzare imo, this is how the sport works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
This ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a mosely fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I will stay up for this mainly for Cotto but might as well see how Shane does against the young pretender.Quote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsThis ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a Mosley fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I take it that this is the main undercard fight to be shown before the big one?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterQuote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsThis ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a Mosley fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I take it that it will be the big undercard fight? I haven't read up on who else is fighting.
I will stay up for this mainly for Cotto but might as well see how Shane does against the young pretender.
Yes Cotto v Floyd is the main eventQuote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsI take it that this is the main undercard fight to be shown before the big one?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterQuote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsThis ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a Mosley fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I take it that it will be the big undercard fight? I haven't read up on who else is fighting.
I will stay up for this mainly for Cotto but might as well see how Shane does against the young pretender.
I don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
Regardless of Shane's opponent on a particular night, if Shane is shot--he's shot. "Shot" in Shane's case means he can't pull the trigger like he used to be able to. Being that I believe that is the case, it won't matter who is he in the ring with to an extent. Cintron in his prime would have been a great test for Alvarez. It turned out to be a complete mismatch because Cintron is shot. This could very well turn out to be a replay of the Cintron fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The outcome is only in doubt, to any extent, because we don't know exactly how shot Shane is after considering that his last two losses were against the top two p4p best in the sport. Once again, ideally, the interest in this fight should not derive from whether Shane is shot or not.
Humor me for a moment and assume I'm correct (I very well might not be, of course, maybe Shane has more left in the tank against Alvarez at 154 than he did against Manny or Floyd, as was your point), what kind of accomplishment is it for Alvarez to beat Shane in that state? Not much, if any at all, is the answer.
It would be a bigger accomplishment, once again assuming Shane is shot, for Alvarez to beat Delvin Rodriguez, an accomplished pro, yet flawed, because Rodriguez is a live body.
Taking into consideration my Shane assumption, do you agree with the two previous statements?
The difference between Cotto and the current Shane (if Shane is shot) is that Cotto is not shot. I estimate Cotto probably has about 90% of what he used to have pre-Margarito #1 and the Pacquiao shellacking. Not enough to be victorious against Pretty Boy, but enough to be a very tough outing for Canelo, at least from what we've seen in Cotto's last few fights. Canelo choosing to fight Cotto would be a huge step up in class. It may in fact be that Canelo isn't ready for that type of jump. Guess what? I wouldn't blame him. He's only 21. He has time. However, if Shane is shot, this fight will be a one-sided beat down. It won't add to Canelo's development. Sadly, it'll just add to Shane's dementia. Have you heard Shane speak recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The same goes for Cotto as it does for Delvin Rodriguez. Floyd would eat Delvin up easily. It doesn't mean at all that he would be a poor choice of opponent for Canelo. Quite the contrary, he would be a great choice, even though Canelo would be favored. In sum, Delvin, like Cotto, unlike how I view Shane, is not shot. Shane is not a step up from Cintron if Shane is shot. It's not that he is less than he once was, but still formidable, if he can't pull the trigger, he can only survive. Delvin Rodriguez is a step up even Wolak would be a step up. Canelo would be favored in both fights.
I don't understand the emphasis on being shot and your definition of it. Why was Cotto not shot after fighting Manny, or Marquez not shot after fighting Floyd? What did they do differently in their fights against the world's best that Floyd did not?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThe difference between Cotto and the current Shane (if Shane is shot) is that Cotto is not shot. I estimate Cotto probably has about 90% of what he used to have pre-Margarito #1 and the Pacquiao shellacking. Not enough to be victorious against Pretty Boy, but enough to be a very tough outing for Canelo, at least from what we've seen in Cotto's last few fights. Canelo choosing to fight Cotto would be a huge step up in class. It may in fact be that Canelo isn't ready for that type of jump. Guess what? I wouldn't blame him. He's only 21. He has time. However, if Shane is shot, this fight will be a one-sided beat down. It won't add to Canelo's development. Sadly, it'll just add to Shane's dementia. Have you heard Shane speak recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The same goes for Cotto as it does for Delvin Rodriguez. Floyd would eat Delvin up easily. It doesn't mean at all that he would be a poor choice of opponent for Canelo. Quite the contrary, he would be a great choice, even though Canelo would be favored. In sum, Delvin, like Cotto, unlike how I view Shane, is not shot. Shane is not a step up from Cintron if Shane is shot. It's not that he is less than he once was, but still formidable, if he can't pull the trigger, he can only survive. Delvin Rodriguez is a step up even Wolak would be a step up. Canelo would be favored in both fights.
They all got completely dominated as I see it.
Shane didn't have the speed and stamina to cope with Manny or Floyd but that doesn't mean he wont have enough to trouble lesser fighters.
It's like saying Tomasz Adamek is shot because he was completely dominated against Vitali in a totally one sided fight.
So many fighters in recent years have been written off as shot. Morales, Marquez, Hopkins. Given the right opponents they have all gone on to do pretty well.
Shane isn't expected to win, and I'd be surprised if he did. But I'd much rather watch Canelo fight him than Delvin Rodriguez. I couldn't give a shit about a fight like that.
I'll be rooting for Sugar Shane. Given how easily Alfonso Gomez was outboxing him until he felt his power I don't think Shane has no chance. I'd still pick Shane to beat Gomez, Hatton, Rhodes, Baldomir and probably Cintron too. The extra weight as this stage might help him a bit with his legs.
I think his biggest problem will be that he won't have the power to hurt Canelo, just like in his prime he had no power to hurt Winky at that weight either.
But I think he might be able to land enough to make it a good fight.
And I always love to see an ageing champion go out by taking on the next generation. It's how boxing should be imo.
I'm clearly doing a bad job explaining my point about Shane being shot. I apologize. It doesn't have to do with his age (Hopkins, Morales, Marquez), although there probably is a positive correllation.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't understand the emphasis on being shot and your definition of it. Why was Cotto not shot after fighting Manny, or Marquez not shot after fighting Floyd? What did they do differently in their fights against the world's best that Floyd did not?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThe difference between Cotto and the current Shane (if Shane is shot) is that Cotto is not shot. I estimate Cotto probably has about 90% of what he used to have pre-Margarito #1 and the Pacquiao shellacking. Not enough to be victorious against Pretty Boy, but enough to be a very tough outing for Canelo, at least from what we've seen in Cotto's last few fights. Canelo choosing to fight Cotto would be a huge step up in class. It may in fact be that Canelo isn't ready for that type of jump. Guess what? I wouldn't blame him. He's only 21. He has time. However, if Shane is shot, this fight will be a one-sided beat down. It won't add to Canelo's development. Sadly, it'll just add to Shane's dementia. Have you heard Shane speak recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The same goes for Cotto as it does for Delvin Rodriguez. Floyd would eat Delvin up easily. It doesn't mean at all that he would be a poor choice of opponent for Canelo. Quite the contrary, he would be a great choice, even though Canelo would be favored. In sum, Delvin, like Cotto, unlike how I view Shane, is not shot. Shane is not a step up from Cintron if Shane is shot. It's not that he is less than he once was, but still formidable, if he can't pull the trigger, he can only survive. Delvin Rodriguez is a step up even Wolak would be a step up. Canelo would be favored in both fights.
They all got completely dominated as I see it.
Shane didn't have the speed and stamina to cope with Manny or Floyd but that doesn't mean he wont have enough to trouble lesser fighters.
It's like saying Tomasz Adamek is shot because he was completely dominated against Vitali in a totally one sided fight.
So many fighters in recent years have been written off as shot. Morales, Marquez, Hopkins. Given the right opponents they have all gone on to do pretty well.
Shane isn't expected to win, and I'd be surprised if he did. But I'd much rather watch Canelo fight him than Delvin Rodriguez. I couldn't give a shit about a fight like that.
I'll be rooting for Sugar Shane. Given how easily Alfonso Gomez was outboxing him until he felt his power I don't think Shane has no chance. I'd still pick Shane to beat Gomez, Hatton, Rhodes, Baldomir and probably Cintron too. The extra weight as this stage might help him a bit with his legs.
I think his biggest problem will be that he won't have the power to hurt Canelo, just like in his prime he had no power to hurt Winky at that weight either.
But I think he might be able to land enough to make it a good fight.
And I always love to see an ageing champion go out by taking on the next generation. It's how boxing should be imo.
I can't explain why Cotto isn't as shot as Shane after losing to Manny and Margarito. It just happens with fighters. One sure-shot sign is when a fighter can't pull the trigger anymore. They can see the openings, but they can't execute. It looked like it happened to James Toney in his last fight against Lebedev (probably much before that). Cintron looked shot against Alvarez and he did against Molina. Jones is done although I'm not quite sure I would label him completely shot. His reflexes and hand speed seem to have just decreased a ton.
If Shane is shot, this is going to be a one-sided beat down, and he won't be able to put up half the fight a competitive not-shot fighter would. Shane couldn't pull the trigger against Pacquiao and he couldn't pull the trigger against Mayweather, other than one punch. Rewatch those fights if you doubt that. Power isn't his issue with Canelo. Canelo was wobbled by Jose Cotto. The issue will be, he can't pull the trigger.
I admit that there is the possibility he couldn't pull the trigger against Pacquiao and Floyd because, well, they are Pacquiao and Floyd, and/or that the higher weight may help hhim againt Alvarez. I hope that is the case. But, with a fighter like Delvin Rodriguez (I only use him as an example because he was rumored to be in contention for the fight), he still has the ability to capitalize on mistakes.
If Mosley isn't shot, he beats Alvarez. Straight up. The issue here is whether he is shot, not if he is old, but whether he is shot. If that is the case, it's a dangerous fight for Shane. Once again, ideally, whether Shane is shot shouldn't be what this fight depends on to be a success.
Do me a favor and look up for my post with the questions in it and answer them?
I usually look at fights objectively in the days and months before they actually happen so this is what I will say without analyzing the fight at hand, I hope Shane pulls it off not because I can't stand Alvarez but because he needs to straighten up, fly right and wake the hell up. He is good but he is retarding his growth as a fighter. He may even feel embarrassed losing to someone deemed as a shot fighter and if you look at Shane's see saw performances, he has gone from one extreme to the other but he is still capable of surprising everyone. Like I said I am not being objective and e all have sentimental favorites but this young champion has got to fight better opposition if he wants to be a true star in his division and grow properly.
Shane said he had achilles problem against Manny, so this time it will be different. If he loses this, I think he will retire as his son is the same age as his opponent.