Holocaust denial

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Even if we are to reduce the genocide of the native Americans to a figure of 7 million it is still more than the numbers of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. We don't have native Americans trying to justify an invasion of Canada every week with reference to the north American genocide.

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Are you really doubling down on stupid here? I can understand you spouting some nonsense about the US b/c you do it all the time and it is understandable that you are ignorant about a country you've never lived in but I pretty much laid out how the de-population of the Native Americans was overwhelmingly from lacking the immune system to handle European diseases versus European or American military campaigns. For an alleged intellectual you sometimes have a real aversion to facts.

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Disease killed the vast majority, but millions of natives were murdered and had their land stolen. It was genocide and arguably the worst case of genocide in human history. Also disease was another method used to kill the natives, so in essence spreading a disease ridden blanket was also somewhat akin to stabbing someone with a knife.

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You know military types tend to keep track of dead enemy. Surely you can back the bolded part up with some well sourced facts. Most of the continents natives had already died from disease before the US ever existed so if you want to point a finger at someone's ancestors then go find some Spanish and Portuguese and even at yourself. Considering most historians of all nations believe that the holocaust was the worst case of genocide ever then arguably your whole premise that manifest destiny is even in the same conversation as the Jew's plight in WWII is preposterous.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Now you're comparing the holocaust to Vietnam. :vd:


Vietnam was a WAR... fuckhead. A war! The American Indians were NOT rounded up and sent single file into gas chambers because they were an inferior race. They died while fighting the colonists, settlers, and armies sent forth by these invaders. But it was BATTLE. Are you for real? I'm sorry I ever tried to argue civilly with you, opening myself up to your infantile insults. So now I will resort to my own insults toward you. And you've opened your personal life up to the forum enough for everyone to see what kind of twisted fuck you are. And you are in charge of molding young South Korean minds? Geez... are THEY fucked up. Grow the fuck up.

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Vietnam was a fabricated invasion which resulted in the systematic slaughtering of millions of people. It was genocide. Though clearly the holocaust resulted in substantially more people being murdered. North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not and much of it was quite definitely intended.

If we are going to talk about being twisted, you only need to read your own elongated rantings in response to Beanz. It is only occasionally that I go off like that, you do it page after page. And I'm the twisted one! Quite funny. ;D

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Now you're comparing the holocaust to Vietnam. :vd:


Vietnam was a WAR... fuckhead. A war! The American Indians were NOT rounded up and sent single file into gas chambers because they were an inferior race. They died while fighting the colonists, settlers, and armies sent forth by these invaders. But it was BATTLE. Are you for real? I'm sorry I ever tried to argue civilly with you, opening myself up to your infantile insults. So now I will resort to my own insults toward you. And you've opened your personal life up to the forum enough for everyone to see what kind of twisted fuck you are. And you are in charge of molding young South Korean minds? Geez... are THEY fucked up. Grow the fuck up.

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Vietnam was a fabricated invasion which resulted in the systematic slaughtering of millions of people. It was genocide. Though clearly the holocaust resulted in substantially more people being murdered. North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not and much of it was quite definitely intended.

If we are going to talk about being twisted, you only need to read your own elongated rantings in response to Beanz. It is only occasionally that I go off like that, you do it page after page. And I'm the twisted one! Quite funny. ;D

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"Vietnam was a fabricated invasion" That is fucking priceless! Do you make up this shit as you go along? Get your head out of your ass, Miles. You're the only one on Earth that thinks like that. So everyone else is wrong? You keep calling wars "holocausts" and "genocide". Do you really know what those words mean?

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars"


So if I've got this straight, according to you, "North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not"...... and the definition of genocide says it's a DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

So basically, North America was DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC...... but also UNINTENDED. You're like the guy in a fight that swings, misses, and knocks himself out. Priceless!

;D

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Even if we are to reduce the genocide of the native Americans to a figure of 7 million it is still more than the numbers of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. We don't have native Americans trying to justify an invasion of Canada every week with reference to the north American genocide.

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Are you really doubling down on stupid here? I can understand you spouting some nonsense about the US b/c you do it all the time and it is understandable that you are ignorant about a country you've never lived in but I pretty much laid out how the de-population of the Native Americans was overwhelmingly from lacking the immune system to handle European diseases versus European or American military campaigns. For an alleged intellectual you sometimes have a real aversion to facts.

---

Disease killed the vast majority, but millions of natives were murdered and had their land stolen. It was genocide and arguably the worst case of genocide in human history. Also disease was another method used to kill the natives, so in essence spreading a disease ridden blanket was also somewhat akin to stabbing someone with a knife.

---

You know military types tend to keep track of dead enemy. Surely you can back the bolded part up with some well sourced facts. Most of the continents natives had already died from disease before the US ever existed so if you want to point a finger at someone's ancestors then go find some Spanish and Portuguese and even at yourself. Considering most historians of all nations believe that the holocaust was the worst case of genocide ever then arguably your whole premise that manifest destiny is even in the same conversation as the Jew's plight in WWII is preposterous.

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If we are to include disease and hunger induced deaths as we do with the holocaust, then the occupation of north America was considerably more signifiant than the holocaust. Only 250,000 Native Indians remained at the turn of the twentieth century from a population that was estimated to be at least 10 million (though the figures vary from historian to historian). It isn't to be sniffed at and one shouldn't dust it under the carpet. The key difference between the 2 genocides was the timeline. The Nazi's were in a hurry whilst the North American invaders did it over a period of centuries. The Nazi holocaust is more shocking because of how systemic it was, but numerically they are quite comparable.

I agree that terrible acts have been carried out by the likes of Spain and Britain and make no defence of such behaviour. A crime is a crime and should always be described as such.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Now you're comparing the holocaust to Vietnam. :vd:


Vietnam was a WAR... fuckhead. A war! The American Indians were NOT rounded up and sent single file into gas chambers because they were an inferior race. They died while fighting the colonists, settlers, and armies sent forth by these invaders. But it was BATTLE. Are you for real? I'm sorry I ever tried to argue civilly with you, opening myself up to your infantile insults. So now I will resort to my own insults toward you. And you've opened your personal life up to the forum enough for everyone to see what kind of twisted fuck you are. And you are in charge of molding young South Korean minds? Geez... are THEY fucked up. Grow the fuck up.

---

Vietnam was a fabricated invasion which resulted in the systematic slaughtering of millions of people. It was genocide. Though clearly the holocaust resulted in substantially more people being murdered. North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not and much of it was quite definitely intended.

If we are going to talk about being twisted, you only need to read your own elongated rantings in response to Beanz. It is only occasionally that I go off like that, you do it page after page. And I'm the twisted one! Quite funny. ;D

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"Vietnam was a fabricated invasion" That is fucking priceless! Do you make up this shit as you go along? Get your head out of your ass, Miles. You're the only one on Earth that thinks like that. So everyone else is wrong? You keep calling wars "holocausts" and "genocide". Do you really know what those words mean?

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars"


So if I've got this straight, according to you, "North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not"...... and the definition of genocide says it's a DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

So basically, North America was DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC...... but also UNINTENDED. You're like the guy in a fight that swings, misses, and knocks himself out. Priceless!

;D

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The Gulf of Tonkin event was used to justify an expanded US war in Vietnam. It was fabricated. The second so called attack didn't even occur. This is pretty common knowledge and isn't controversial.

If you bomb entire villages of Vietnamese people then in essence you are exterminating a race of people. It is an act of war, but it also constitutes genocide. I have no issues with the meanings of these words. That is your problem.

Regarding North America, the murder was intended. Most of the time disease was unintended, though occasionally it was used for the purpose of killing. Some bundle murder and disease together whilst others choose to differentiate. Massacres occured frequently in North America. These were obvious acts of genocide.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Now you're comparing the holocaust to Vietnam. :vd:


Vietnam was a WAR... fuckhead. A war! The American Indians were NOT rounded up and sent single file into gas chambers because they were an inferior race. They died while fighting the colonists, settlers, and armies sent forth by these invaders. But it was BATTLE. Are you for real? I'm sorry I ever tried to argue civilly with you, opening myself up to your infantile insults. So now I will resort to my own insults toward you. And you've opened your personal life up to the forum enough for everyone to see what kind of twisted fuck you are. And you are in charge of molding young South Korean minds? Geez... are THEY fucked up. Grow the fuck up.

---

Vietnam was a fabricated invasion which resulted in the systematic slaughtering of millions of people. It was genocide. Though clearly the holocaust resulted in substantially more people being murdered. North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not and much of it was quite definitely intended.

If we are going to talk about being twisted, you only need to read your own elongated rantings in response to Beanz. It is only occasionally that I go off like that, you do it page after page. And I'm the twisted one! Quite funny. ;D

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"Vietnam was a fabricated invasion" That is fucking priceless! Do you make up this shit as you go along? Get your head out of your ass, Miles. You're the only one on Earth that thinks like that. So everyone else is wrong? You keep calling wars "holocausts" and "genocide". Do you really know what those words mean?

"Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars"


So if I've got this straight, according to you, "North America likewise was genocide, whether intended or not"...... and the definition of genocide says it's a DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

So basically, North America was DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC...... but also UNINTENDED. You're like the guy in a fight that swings, misses, and knocks himself out. Priceless!

;D

---

The Gulf of Tonkin event was used to justify an expanded US war in Vietnam. It was fabricated. The second so called attack didn't even occur. This is pretty common knowledge and isn't controversial.

If you bomb entire villages of Vietnamese people then in essence you are exterminating a race of people. It is an act of war, but it also constitutes genocide. I have no issues with the meanings of these words. That is your problem.

Regarding North America, the murder was intended. Most of the time disease was unintended, though occasionally it was used for the purpose of killing. Some bundle murder and disease together whilst others choose to differentiate. Massacres occured frequently in North America. These were obvious acts of genocide.

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(summoning all the patience in my being) The VietCong were fighting back. Vietnam was a WAR. W-A-R. You know... where people shoot at each other? And in North America, which is it? First you say it was unintended and now you backtrack. Make up your fucking mind. But I'll make it up for you. To keep comparing the mass slaughter of millions of Jews just 'cause they were Jews, to all these WARS, is just plain moronic. But continue your deluded way of thinking. I'm outta here.

Are you for real? No way do you know so little about important historical events. The Gulf of Tonkin event was an excuse to get involved in a country that was none of Americas business. The second attack did not occur. It was a fake. The reason given for expanding US involvment was a complete lie. It was a fabrication. What is it that you are failing to understand?

Back to North America and genocide. I do not need to make up my mind on anything. I was simply pointing out that historians approach the issue of genocide differently. Some include disease as part of the numbers estimation and others do not.

When it comes to the holocaust it was not just about Jews. It was about anyone who didn't fit accepted Nazi ideology. It was Jews, it was gypsies, it was communists, it was dissidents, opponents of Hitler, homosexuals etc etc. They were all rounded up into camps and large numbers died from hunger and disease. We count all of them as victims of the holocaust. It is on that elementary basis that you can potentially apply the same logic to north America. Gas chambers were only part of the death process. It is isn't complicated.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Even if we are to reduce the genocide of the native Americans to a figure of 7 million it is still more than the numbers of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. We don't have native Americans trying to justify an invasion of Canada every week with reference to the north American genocide.

---

Are you really doubling down on stupid here? I can understand you spouting some nonsense about the US b/c you do it all the time and it is understandable that you are ignorant about a country you've never lived in but I pretty much laid out how the de-population of the Native Americans was overwhelmingly from lacking the immune system to handle European diseases versus European or American military campaigns. For an alleged intellectual you sometimes have a real aversion to facts.

---

Disease killed the vast majority, but millions of natives were murdered and had their land stolen. It was genocide and arguably the worst case of genocide in human history. Also disease was another method used to kill the natives, so in essence spreading a disease ridden blanket was also somewhat akin to stabbing someone with a knife.

---

You know military types tend to keep track of dead enemy. Surely you can back the bolded part up with some well sourced facts. Most of the continents natives had already died from disease before the US ever existed so if you want to point a finger at someone's ancestors then go find some Spanish and Portuguese and even at yourself. Considering most historians of all nations believe that the holocaust was the worst case of genocide ever then arguably your whole premise that manifest destiny is even in the same conversation as the Jew's plight in WWII is preposterous.

---

If we are to include disease and hunger induced deaths as we do with the holocaust, then the occupation of north America was considerably more signifiant than the holocaust. Only 250,000 Native Indians remained at the turn of the twentieth century from a population that was estimated to be at least 10 million (though the figures vary from historian to historian). It isn't to be sniffed at and one shouldn't dust it under the carpet. The key difference between the 2 genocides was the timeline. The Nazi's were in a hurry whilst the North American invaders did it over a period of centuries. The Nazi holocaust is more shocking because of how systemic it was, but numerically they are quite comparable.

I agree that terrible acts have been carried out by the likes of Spain and Britain and make no defence of such behaviour. A crime is a crime and should always be described as such.

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So you pretty much can't back your claim up at all. Got it. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Even if we are to reduce the genocide of the native Americans to a figure of 7 million it is still more than the numbers of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. We don't have native Americans trying to justify an invasion of Canada every week with reference to the north American genocide.

---

Are you really doubling down on stupid here? I can understand you spouting some nonsense about the US b/c you do it all the time and it is understandable that you are ignorant about a country you've never lived in but I pretty much laid out how the de-population of the Native Americans was overwhelmingly from lacking the immune system to handle European diseases versus European or American military campaigns. For an alleged intellectual you sometimes have a real aversion to facts.

---

Disease killed the vast majority, but millions of natives were murdered and had their land stolen. It was genocide and arguably the worst case of genocide in human history. Also disease was another method used to kill the natives, so in essence spreading a disease ridden blanket was also somewhat akin to stabbing someone with a knife.

---

You know military types tend to keep track of dead enemy. Surely you can back the bolded part up with some well sourced facts. Most of the continents natives had already died from disease before the US ever existed so if you want to point a finger at someone's ancestors then go find some Spanish and Portuguese and even at yourself. Considering most historians of all nations believe that the holocaust was the worst case of genocide ever then arguably your whole premise that manifest destiny is even in the same conversation as the Jew's plight in WWII is preposterous.

---

If we are to include disease and hunger induced deaths as we do with the holocaust, then the occupation of north America was considerably more signifiant than the holocaust. Only 250,000 Native Indians remained at the turn of the twentieth century from a population that was estimated to be at least 10 million (though the figures vary from historian to historian). It isn't to be sniffed at and one shouldn't dust it under the carpet. The key difference between the 2 genocides was the timeline. The Nazi's were in a hurry whilst the North American invaders did it over a period of centuries. The Nazi holocaust is more shocking because of how systemic it was, but numerically they are quite comparable.

I agree that terrible acts have been carried out by the likes of Spain and Britain and make no defence of such behaviour. A crime is a crime and should always be described as such.

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So you pretty much can't back your claim up at all. Got it. Thanks.

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Read some Chomsky. I won't write books for you.

Read some American History and not a bunch of white guilt from a linguistics expert. Your ignorance on the US is only slightly surpassed by your obsession and lack of objectivity.

Says the man who killed people and did so paid by the tax payer.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Are you for real? No way do you know so little about important historical events. The Gulf of Tonkin event was an excuse to get involved in a country that was none of Americas business. The second attack did not occur. It was a fake. The reason given for expanding US involvment was a complete lie. It was a fabrication. What is it that you are failing to understand?

Back to North America and genocide. I do not need to make up my mind on anything. I was simply pointing out that historians approach the issue of genocide differently. Some include disease as part of the numbers estimation and others do not.

When it comes to the holocaust it was not just about Jews. It was about anyone who didn't fit accepted Nazi ideology. It was Jews, it was gypsies, it was communists, it was dissidents, opponents of Hitler, homosexuals etc etc. They were all rounded up into camps and large numbers died from hunger and disease. We count all of them as victims of the holocaust. It is on that elementary basis that you can potentially apply the same logic to north America. Gas chambers were only part of the death process. It is isn't complicated.

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Oh....... NOW i get it. Man, I'm sorry I've been wrong all this time. It wasn't just Jews that were exterminated by the millions. It was other ethnic groups and races as well. Well that makes ALL the difference. I guess the holocaust wasn't that bad after all. Whew! Thanks for setting me straight.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Are you for real? No way do you know so little about important historical events. The Gulf of Tonkin event was an excuse to get involved in a country that was none of Americas business. The second attack did not occur. It was a fake. The reason given for expanding US involvment was a complete lie. It was a fabrication. What is it that you are failing to understand?

Back to North America and genocide. I do not need to make up my mind on anything. I was simply pointing out that historians approach the issue of genocide differently. Some include disease as part of the numbers estimation and others do not.

When it comes to the holocaust it was not just about Jews. It was about anyone who didn't fit accepted Nazi ideology. It was Jews, it was gypsies, it was communists, it was dissidents, opponents of Hitler, homosexuals etc etc. They were all rounded up into camps and large numbers died from hunger and disease. We count all of them as victims of the holocaust. It is on that elementary basis that you can potentially apply the same logic to north America. Gas chambers were only part of the death process. It is isn't complicated.

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Oh....... NOW i get it. Man, I'm sorry I've been wrong all this time. It wasn't just Jews that were exterminated by the millions. It was other ethnic groups and races as well. Well that makes ALL the difference. I guess the holocaust wasn't that bad after all. Whew! Thanks for setting me straight.

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It is factual then. I didn't lie at any point. Apology please.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Are you for real? No way do you know so little about important historical events. The Gulf of Tonkin event was an excuse to get involved in a country that was none of Americas business. The second attack did not occur. It was a fake. The reason given for expanding US involvment was a complete lie. It was a fabrication. What is it that you are failing to understand?

Back to North America and genocide. I do not need to make up my mind on anything. I was simply pointing out that historians approach the issue of genocide differently. Some include disease as part of the numbers estimation and others do not.

When it comes to the holocaust it was not just about Jews. It was about anyone who didn't fit accepted Nazi ideology. It was Jews, it was gypsies, it was communists, it was dissidents, opponents of Hitler, homosexuals etc etc. They were all rounded up into camps and large numbers died from hunger and disease. We count all of them as victims of the holocaust. It is on that elementary basis that you can potentially apply the same logic to north America. Gas chambers were only part of the death process. It is isn't complicated.

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Oh....... NOW i get it. Man, I'm sorry I've been wrong all this time. It wasn't just Jews that were exterminated by the millions. It was other ethnic groups and races as well. Well that makes ALL the difference. I guess the holocaust wasn't that bad after all. Whew! Thanks for setting me straight.

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It is factual then. I didn't lie at any point. Apology please.

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I'm sorry I haven't been able to convince you that I'm right.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Says the man who killed people and did so paid by the tax payer.

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Well nothing says capitulation like resorting to ad hominem.