Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.
But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?
Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.
Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.
So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.
Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.
I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.
And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.
That is true but if its in the rules its fair , yes it may be boring sometimes , but very effective.
I dont remember past champs thrilling us every minute.
Nor I a heavyweight champion with his natural gifts and size that fought like him.
Also true Kevin , but as you have pointed out ,Wlad fights that way because if he didnt the first 7 rows of the crowd would be showered with glass the first big shot he took .
Point taken. Safe to say we both know what the other means. In the end its an answerable chicken vs the egg question. His defense if you want to call it that is a direct result of his punch resistance. If only Earnie Shavers fought that way. Its 2 a.m. bud so I gotta hit the sack.
Good chat.
Which all makes for a good, effective heavyweight champion... but one who does not spark the interest in the fans that would make the HW division the crowning jewel of boxing, as it has been in years past. Again, defense in order to ply your offense is different from defense by being scared shitless of someone touching your chin.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
There are different ways of "not getting hit".
I saw an old fight between Roberto Duran and some bloke named Lou Bizarro, in Bizarro's hometown. The crowd was going wild, because Bizarro ran for 14 fucking rounds, refusing to even appear to want to engage Duran. Whenever Duran got within striking distance, the scared Bizarro would grab and hold on for dear life. All the crowd was interested in was that Bizarro was lasting the whole fight with the great Duran. Eventually, Duran caught up with Bizarro and the little fucker had nowhere to go. Duran knocked him out, and could be clearly seen waving off the prone Bizarro in disgust.
Did Bizarro employ effective defense through 14 rounds of the fight? I said effective defense. As in "not getting hit". Well... yes. Was it crowd-pleasing? Fuck no. (Well, unless you were from Erie, Pennsylvania... or Italian).
Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.
You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.
Wlad is blessed with height and long arms. So he'll stand at a safe distance and paw... looking for a safe opening. If there's even a 5% chance he could get hit in return, he's perfectly willing to keep pawing for the full 12. Unfortunately, most of his opponents are only too content to go the 12 rounds and collect the paycheck. If, by any freak of nature, an opponent unleashes anything that remotely resembles a flurry... Wlad will use his long arms to deflect the punches, while taking long steps back with a wide-eyed look on his face. Any thought of counter-punching is far from his mind. When the danger is over, it's back to business as usual.
Effective, but not crowd-pleasing.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
There are different ways of "not getting hit".
I saw an old fight between Roberto Duran and some bloke named Lou Bizarro, in Bizarro's hometown. The crowd was going wild, because Bizarro ran for 14 fucking rounds, refusing to even appear to want to engage Duran. Whenever Duran got within striking distance, the scared Bizarro would grab and hold on for dear life. All the crowd was interested in was that Bizarro was lasting the whole fight with the great Duran. Eventually, Duran caught up with Bizarro and the little fucker had nowhere to go. Duran knocked him out, and could be clearly seen waving off the prone Bizarro in disgust.
Did Bizarro employ effective defense through 14 rounds of the fight? I said effective defense. As in "not getting hit". Well... yes. Was it crowd-pleasing? Fuck no. (Well, unless you were from Erie, Pennsylvania... or Italian).
Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.
You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.
Wlad is blessed with height and long arms. So he'll stand at a safe distance and paw... looking for a safe opening. If there's even a 5% chance he could get hit in return, he's perfectly willing to keep pawing for the full 12. Unfortunately, most of his opponents are only too content to go the 12 rounds and collect the paycheck. If, by any freak of nature, an opponent unleashes anything that remotely resembles a flurry... Wlad will use his long arms to deflect the punches, while taking long steps back with a wide-eyed look on his face. Any thought of counter-punching is far from his mind. When the danger is over, it's back to business as usual.
Effective, but not crowd-pleasing.
@TitoFan
I completely hear your point. It would be a losing argument for me to say that Wladimir's defense is fun to watch. Never mind if it is effective. He's not making people miss to set up a counter or leading people into shots. He's using reach and length. By the way, if you like defensive fighters, you should check out videos of Locche and Pep.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
@TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
Wlad is very cautious bordering on boring. he is like a cat killing a mice very slowly and deliberately just in case he gets bit on the nose.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
Rocky Marciano was the One.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.
You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.
A few issues with your post:
1) I find it odd that we're saying a guy with 50 KO's in 59 wins doesn't come to fight and defeat his opponents, but guys like Pernell Whitaker (37% KO ratio), Benitez (50% KO ratio) and Mayweather (60% KO ratio) do.
2) I think it's unfair to compare the defensive behaviours of Wladimir, a 6'7'' 250lb guy fighting in the Heavyweight division, with the defensive behaviours of smaller guys like Whitaker, Benitez and Mayweather.
a) Heavyweights obviously hit with a lot more force than a welterweight, so standing in front of a heavyweight and utilizing risky infighting defense is often not conducive with success, especially when we're talking about a guy who is often 5-7 inches taller than his opponent.
b) Smaller guys are obviously a lot more agile than 6'7'' giants, so using quick head movement/slick countering/ect is more commonplace in those weight divisions.
c) Pernell, Mayweather and Benitez were (and are) very much "safety first" guys. Like Wlad, they chose their punches wisely and rarely ever got out of their comfort zones.
3. I think it's hypocritical to slam Wlad's defense and praise Ali. When it comes to Ali, people seem to remember his career in convenient HL reels: him KOing Foreman, beating down Liston, duking it out with Frazier in Manilla. Truth is, Ali stunk out plenty of arenas with his dancing, "jab and run" style. People remember the first and third Frazier fight, but no one seems to recall the 2nd fight where Ali pioneered the "jab and grab" style (later perfected by John Ruiz) and put everyone to sleep. Ali had a great beard, but hated to get hit (like any rational human being) and largely fought a "safety first" style. Same as Wlad.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
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Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
@
TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.
You sound like Larry Merchant. Who ignored Wlad using his elbows to push him down all night. It is simply not true that David Haye ran the whole night. People who believed Hayes overhyped predictions and brought those preconceptions into the fight keep saying this but if you watch the ACTUAL fight you will see Haye try and throw plenty of bombs and mostly fail to connect. At one point he leaps up and therefore carries no power in his punch and at many other points he tries to rush in and throw punches only to be smothered or pushed down. He did not knock out Wlad because it was much harder than he anticipated, but at no point was a man so much shorter and two stones lighter ever going to stand toe to toe with him. Wlad is much harder to hit than it appears and Haye now knows that. If he is still fighting when a similarly well conditioned man of his own huge stature with good boxing skills and big KO power meets him, he is in big trouble. Price is that man and Wlads days as champ are numbered.
There is no point to this argument because we've had it before. We can agree to disagree. In my opinion, clearly not shared by you, Haye talked more crap than anyone since Tyson told Lewis he would eat his children. Then on the biggest stage in his career, Haye turned in a crap performance. Maybe if Haye hadn't told everyone that would listen he would decapitate Wlad, we wouldn't have expected an engaging fight because of their size difference. We had a right to be disappointed after Haye's pre-fight antics. Afterward, he blamed his lack of fight on his big toe. Really, that is all that needs to be said about that.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
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Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
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Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
@
TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.
You sound like Larry Merchant. Who ignored Wlad using his elbows to push him down all night. It is simply not true that David Haye ran the whole night. People who believed Hayes overhyped predictions and brought those preconceptions into the fight keep saying this but if you watch the ACTUAL fight you will see Haye try and throw plenty of bombs and mostly fail to connect. At one point he leaps up and therefore carries no power in his punch and at many other points he tries to rush in and throw punches only to be smothered or pushed down. He did not knock out Wlad because it was much harder than he anticipated, but at no point was a man so much shorter and two stones lighter ever going to stand toe to toe with him. Wlad is much harder to hit than it appears and Haye now knows that. If he is still fighting when a similarly well conditioned man of his own huge stature with good boxing skills and big KO power meets him, he is in big trouble. Price is that man and Wlads days as champ are numbered.
There is no point to this argument because we've had it before. We can agree to disagree. In my opinion,
clearly not shared by you, Haye talked more crap than anyone since Tyson told Lewis he would eat his children. Then on the biggest stage in his career, Haye turned in a crap performance. Maybe if Haye hadn't told everyone that would listen he would decapitate Wlad, we wouldn't have expected an engaging fight because of their size difference. We had a right to be disappointed after Haye's pre-fight antics. Afterward, he blamed his lack of fight on his big toe. Really, that is all that needs to be said about that.
Haye jammed out. For all his yacking he looked like a child in the ring in need of a wet nurse and he had me fooled completely before the fight that he was going to decapitate Wlad.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
There is no point to this argument because we've had it before. We can agree to disagree. In my opinion, clearly not shared by you, Haye talked more crap than anyone since Tyson told Lewis he would eat his children. Then on the biggest stage in his career, Haye turned in a crap performance. Maybe if Haye hadn't told everyone that would listen he would decapitate Wlad, we wouldn't have expected an engaging fight because of their size difference. We had a right to be disappointed after Haye's pre-fight antics. Afterward, he blamed his lack of fight on his big toe. Really, that is all that needs to be said about that.
Agreed 100%. When you're making T-shirts of you decapitating a guy, talking about how he sucks and he's killing HW boxing and how you're going to destory him.... to put on a performance like Haye did was absolutely shameful.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Haye jammed out. For all his yacking he looked like a child in the ring in need of a wet nurse and he had me fooled completely before the fight that he was going to decapitate Wlad.
He fooled you, me, and a lot of people.
I actually told friends who weren't boxing fans to watch it, because it was gaurenteed to be great. Haye made a complete asshole out of me and anyone who paid to see that garbage.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Haye jammed out. For all his yacking he looked like a child in the ring in need of a wet nurse and he had me fooled completely before the fight that he was going to decapitate Wlad.
He fooled you, me, and a lot of people.
I actually told friends who weren't boxing fans to watch it, because it was gaurenteed to be great. Haye made a complete asshole out of me and anyone who paid to see that garbage.
Haye is a big contradiction he said fighting once a year is no problem as he does not get ring rust. Also he was asked about the decapitation T shirt and he basically said it was 4 years ago and it was a “means to an end” to get Wlad in the ring which it did. Bottom line do not take Haye seriously.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
[QUOTE=Beanflicker;1130348]
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.
You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.
c) Pernell, Mayweather and Benitez were (and are) very much "safety first" guys. Like Wlad, they chose their punches wisely and rarely ever got out of their comfort zones.
Pernell and Floyd of late certainly fight more aggressively. They are within punching distance but are difficult to hit.
Re: When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)
Fair enough. I'll respond to each point within the body of your post.
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.
You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.
A few issues with your post:
1) I find it odd that we're saying a guy with 50 KO's in 59 wins doesn't come to fight and defeat his opponents, but guys like Pernell Whitaker (37% KO ratio), Benitez (50% KO ratio) and Mayweather (60% KO ratio) do.
Odd yes... impossible no. You got to look at the big picture here. Knockout ratios alone don't tell the story. Many of those 50 Wlad KO victims came into the ring like scared sacrificial lambs. If he fought aggresive, he would have a higher ratio. The other three guys fought opposition LIGHT-YEARS ahead of anything Wlad has ever faced.
2) I think it's unfair to compare the defensive behaviours of Wladimir, a 6'7'' 250lb guy fighting in the Heavyweight division, with the defensive behaviours of smaller guys like Whitaker, Benitez and Mayweather.
a) Heavyweights obviously hit with a lot more force than a welterweight, so standing in front of a heavyweight and utilizing risky infighting defense is often not conducive with success, especially when we're talking about a guy who is often 5-7 inches taller than his opponent.
"Standing in front of a heavyweight" is your key phrase here, and I don't anyone here is claiming you have to stand in front of anybody in order to be exciting to the fans. And the only choices are not a) standing in front of a heavyweight, or b) risky infighting. There are defensive moves that can be employed from a distance convenient to the fighter. The key is to look for openings while you're employing your defense.
b) Smaller guys are obviously a lot more agile than 6'7'' giants, so using quick head movement/slick countering/ect is more commonplace in those weight divisions.
Small guys will be quicker, yes. Matter of physics. But there's been plenty of big guys who have been adept at defensive styles that suit their size. Defense with the purpose of positioning yourself for offense.
c) Pernell, Mayweather and Benitez were (and are) very much "safety first" guys. Like Wlad, they chose their punches wisely and rarely ever got out of their comfort zones.
"Safety first" or not, these all-time greats used a variety of defensive moves. They ducked under punches and went to the body... they knew how to use the shoulder to deflect punches... they had quick reflexes, which enabled them to move out of the way of punches without losing their balance and remaining in the position to strike back.
3. I think it's hypocritical to slam Wlad's defense and praise Ali. When it comes to Ali, people seem to remember his career in convenient HL reels: him KOing Foreman, beating down Liston, duking it out with Frazier in Manilla. Truth is, Ali stunk out plenty of arenas with his dancing, "jab and run" style. People remember the first and third Frazier fight, but no one seems to recall the 2nd fight where Ali pioneered the "jab and grab" style (later perfected by John Ruiz) and put everyone to sleep. Ali had a great beard, but hated to get hit (like any rational human being) and largely fought a "safety first" style. Same as Wlad.
Ali could be TOTALLY maddening at times, with his grabbing and holding behind the head. Some of his fights could be rather frustrating for fans. But once again, he never looked scared or out of control in there. And when faced with flurries from the opponent, he also had a variety of defensive maneuvers he performed very well.
