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It really irritates me when people say Oscar deserved to lose to Tito because he ran in the championship rounds..
There is a point system for a reason and oscar scored more regardless of whether he ran in the later rounds.
U ask any Puerto Rican and of course they are gonna say Tito is better but most objective, neutral fans knows Oscar accomplished more..
Oscar > Tito
I'm not Puerto Rican and I'm not neutral. Grew up in Mexican neighborhoods and boxed in Mexican gyms...and Trinidad beat Oscar by a point. They both sucked- don't get that wrong- Oscar was scared and trinidad couldn't get to him. But Felix won by a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
Point system means 'by rounds', not by punches.
Oscar won more rounds..Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsooldI'm not Puerto Rican and I'm not neutral. Grew up in Mexican neighborhoods and boxed in Mexican gyms...and Trinidad beat Oscar by a point. They both sucked- don't get that wrong- Oscar was scared and trinidad couldn't get to him. But Felix won by a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
Point system means 'by rounds', not by punches.
No. I had it 2-2-1 after five ( and after watching it many times, it is always the same, though I sometimes who I think won which rounds changes). The Oscar won 6,7,8. Then he gave away 9,10,11,12.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaOscar won more rounds..Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsooldI'm not Puerto Rican and I'm not neutral. Grew up in Mexican neighborhoods and boxed in Mexican gyms...and Trinidad beat Oscar by a point. They both sucked- don't get that wrong- Oscar was scared and trinidad couldn't get to him. But Felix won by a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
Point system means 'by rounds', not by punches.
Oscar didn't fight the last four like he thought he had it won. He ran like he feared for his life. I think he came into the ring scared, prepared for the fight scared. At some point in the 8th round Trinidad hurt him and it re-ignited that fear. I think it was a hook to the belly late in that round.
Also...Oscar's big punch was the hook, right? In the 4th round or so, Trinidad hooks off the DLH hook and lands. Count the hooks Oscar throws after that. He was scared to death that whole night.
I agree with grey I had it the same, it how you scored the early rounds that mattered which determined the winner.
*I disagree... I think their careers mimick eachothers in many ways... BUT fought impressive opposition... Do I think Tito was more exciting..yea... but DeLaHoya wasn't far behind...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
And many agree with you, stinkybug. But many disagree also. Consider that the fight was held in Las Vegas, not San Juan. And that Oscar was the darling and the cash cow of the major networks. There was no incentive to rob Oscar. He threw the fight away in the last three rounds, running for his life.
Oscar was the better boxer, yes. But IMO, Trinidad was the better fighter, AND... had the better and more impressive career.
so, the deciding factor is when they went head to head... man, I don't just pick this stuff out of the air... it's right there. the fight happened. If u can't honestly watch that fight and say"DLH won"... then ur simply a Tito fan.
so I read ur post... I haven't done this in awhile, but I had time..i watched the fight again..a fight I had DLH winning years ago by 3 or 4 points.... this is what I got after watching it today. if no even rounds, cuz I hate even rounds...I have 1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9 for DLH/ 4,10,11,12 for Tito... if u have even rounds... 1 and 2 maybe even..but for sure not Tito's...in that case I have 3,5,6,7,8,9 DLH to 4,10,11,12
I had no close rounds going to Tito..all his rounds were desisive.
if that doesn't convince u...then let me say that it's on google as one of the worst decisions ever.
if that doesn't change ur mind... compubox had it 263 landed for DLH to 116 for Tito... and that's becuz DLH didn't even throw many punches after the 10th round...
case closed...DeLaHoya was robbed.
p.s... the last rounds DLH stopped throwing... he actually thought he was boxing... BUT through-out the fight...to include the last rounds...what DLH did was nothing less of spectacular boxing..just amazing. the air he had to move like that through-out the fight it incredible.
Unfortunately Kostyas legacy went down the ranks when he didnt pursue Phillips #2 immediatley.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
He was handled and steered back on course after that one.
Full points for taking on a very hungry and extreme trained younger fighter in Hatton (at the time Hatton was going 24 rounds etc) I think Kostya thought he could time him coming in square and break him down,(which in his prime we all recon he would of done on a good night but fate did exactly to him what he did to Chavez at the same stages in their careers.
Threads drifted off from"Legacy" a touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Rice
Did you leave 10 blank so we can fill in our own choice?
*I tend to remember Tyszu hurt a lot as well... BUT ur right, he should've rematched VP ... but I just don't think it was high on his agenda...Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreUnfortunately Kostyas legacy went down the ranks when he didnt pursue Phillips #2 immediatley.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
He was handled and steered back on course after that one.
Full points for taking on a very hungry and extreme trained younger fighter in Hatton (at the time Hatton was going 24 rounds etc) I think Kostya thought he could time him coming in square and break him down,(which in his prime we all recon he would of done on a good night but fate did exactly to him what he did to Chavez at the same stages in their careers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreThreads drifted off from"Legacy" a touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Rice
Did you leave 10 blank so we can fill in our own choice?
This thread is dedicated to De La hoya, these were the greats who floated around the same divisions in the same era as Oscar but did not receive anywhere near the star power as him, although they were just as good if not better, he fought everybody on this list except Tszyu.
He maid Tito a cash cow post their fight, along with Mayweather and Pac.
There was no great to put at 10, but here are some options
Quartey
Vargas
Forrest
Joppy
Page
Judah lol
Meldric Taylor
Such distortion of the truth. Trinidad didn't beat De La Hoya. So he shouldn't even be up there. Campas and Vargas won titles after fighting Trinidad. How is that ruining them? A lot of Campas best wins came after the Trinidad fight. Vargas was never the same after he had his back surgery. His back problems are what ruined him. Reid went into the Trinidad fight already ruined. Trinidad was a cash out fight for him. His eye was fucked up and there was no way to fix it. As for Oba Carr? When the fuck are people gonna stop overrating him? Carr was never considered "all that" He had a little hype behind him cuz he was a product of the Kronk gym and went into the Trinidad fight with a pretty 32-0 record. But the people who actually follow boxing (and not just look at records and pretend they know more than they really do) knew it was a hollow 32-0. By all rights It should of been 30-2. Pedro Sanchez dropped him and out fought him. And deserved the win. But that doesn't compare to the bullshit SD win Carr got over 600 year old Livingstone Bramble. Bramble dropped him twice and punked him all night. Carr would of took the loss if the fight wasn't in his hometown. It makes me laugh when I hear clueless people say Trinidad ruined Carr. He didn't ruin Carr. Carr was always just an average fighter. He never beat anyone of note before fighting Trinidad or after fighting Trinidad. But don't let facts stand in the way. Carry on with the distorted facts. Trinidad ruined Carr. He turned an average fighter into less average fighter. Yay. :yay2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry RiceQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
Fighters Tito popped their cherry
Yori Campus
Oba Carr
Oscar De La Hoya
David Reid
Fernando Vargas
Only Oscar was able to go on to other things, everybody else was ruined
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseSuch distortion of the truth. Trinidad didn't beat De La Hoya. So he shouldn't even be up there. Campas and Vargas won titles after fighting Trinidad. How is that ruining them? A lot of Campas best wins came after the Trinidad fight. Vargas was never the same after he had his back surgery. His back problems are what ruined him. Reid went into the Trinidad fight already ruined. Trinidad was a cash out fight for him. His eye was fucked up and there was no way to fix it. As for Oba Carr? When the fuck are people gonna stop overrating him? Carr was never considered "all that" He had a little hype behind him cuz he was a product of the Kronk gym and went into the Trinidad fight with a pretty 32-0 record. But the people who actually follow boxing (and not just look at records and pretend they know more than they really do) knew it was a hollow 32-0. By all rights It should of been 30-2. Pedro Sanchez dropped him and out fought him. And deserved the win. But that doesn't compare to the bullshit SD win Carr got over 600 year old Livingstone Bramble. Bramble dropped him twice and punked him all night. Carr would of took the loss if the fight wasn't in his hometown. It makes me laugh when I hear clueless people say Trinidad ruined Carr. He didn't ruin Carr. Carr was always just an average fighter. He never beat anyone of note before fighting Trinidad or after fighting Trinidad. But don't let facts stand in the way. Carry on with the distorted facts. Trinidad ruined Carr. He turned an average fighter into less average fighter. Yay. :yay2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry RiceQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
Fighters Tito popped their cherry
Yori Campus
Oba Carr
Oscar De La Hoya
David Reid
Fernando Vargas
Only Oscar was able to go on to other things, everybody else was ruined
Can't except you to be objective about any argument involving a P.R. fighter and a Mexican one. But I can't help but notice how you steer away from the argument that Oscar made a living out of feasting on Trinidad's leftovers. Fine... tear down the Reid's and the Carr's. It's a no-win argument either way. You know what they say about hindsight, or Monday-morning quarterbacking. Makes everyone look like geniuses. My argument is and has always been that, although admittedly Oscar was the better boxer, Trinidad was the more accomplished fighter AND had the more impressive career. Oscar was more globally popular for the same reason Baby Chavez is globally popular. There's millions and millions of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans who will eagerly throw their weight behind any "paisano" that comes along. You can be coddled (Chavez Jr.), or a known cheater (Margarito)... and you still get all the adulation, deserved or not. No hate, just the facts.
The problem is a very simple one. You're just to damn sensitive. I mean little 10 year old girl sensitive. You take facts as insults. That's why you think I'm always knocking Trinidad. When in reality I'm not. I wasn't tearing Reid or Carr down. I was just simply providing facts. Or am I lying? Feel free to counter anything I said. Prove I'm making shit up or I'm wrong in what I'm saying. And while you're at it, point out to me where I discredited Trinidad like you claim I always do. Like I told you before. Facts are not insults. You just take them that wayQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseSuch distortion of the truth. Trinidad didn't beat De La Hoya. So he shouldn't even be up there. Campas and Vargas won titles after fighting Trinidad. How is that ruining them? A lot of Campas best wins came after the Trinidad fight. Vargas was never the same after he had his back surgery. His back problems are what ruined him. Reid went into the Trinidad fight already ruined. Trinidad was a cash out fight for him. His eye was fucked up and there was no way to fix it. As for Oba Carr? When the fuck are people gonna stop overrating him? Carr was never considered "all that" He had a little hype behind him cuz he was a product of the Kronk gym and went into the Trinidad fight with a pretty 32-0 record. But the people who actually follow boxing (and not just look at records and pretend they know more than they really do) knew it was a hollow 32-0. By all rights It should of been 30-2. Pedro Sanchez dropped him and out fought him. And deserved the win. But that doesn't compare to the bullshit SD win Carr got over 600 year old Livingstone Bramble. Bramble dropped him twice and punked him all night. Carr would of took the loss if the fight wasn't in his hometown. It makes me laugh when I hear clueless people say Trinidad ruined Carr. He didn't ruin Carr. Carr was always just an average fighter. He never beat anyone of note before fighting Trinidad or after fighting Trinidad. But don't let facts stand in the way. Carry on with the distorted facts. Trinidad ruined Carr. He turned an average fighter into less average fighter. Yay. :yay2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry RiceQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
Fighters Tito popped their cherry
Yori Campus
Oba Carr
Oscar De La Hoya
David Reid
Fernando Vargas
Only Oscar was able to go on to other things, everybody else was ruined
Can't except you to be objective about any argument involving a P.R. fighter and a Mexican one. But I can't help but notice how you steer away from the argument that Oscar made a living out of feasting on Trinidad's leftovers. Fine... tear down the Reid's and the Carr's. It's a no-win argument either way. You know what they say about hindsight, or Monday-morning quarterbacking. Makes everyone look like geniuses. My argument is and has always been that, although admittedly Oscar was the better boxer, Trinidad was the more accomplished fighter AND had the more impressive career. Oscar was more globally popular for the same reason Baby Chavez is globally popular. There's millions and millions of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans who will eagerly throw their weight behind any "paisano" that comes along. You can be coddled (Chavez Jr.), or a known cheater (Margarito)... and you still get all the adulation, deserved or not. No hate, just the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe problem is a very simple one. You're just to damn sensitive. I mean little 10 year old girl sensitive. You take facts as insults. That's why you think I'm always knocking Trinidad. When in reality I'm not. I wasn't tearing Reid or Carr down. I was just simply providing facts. Or am I lying? Feel free to counter anything I said. Prove I'm making shit up or I'm wrong in what I'm saying. And while you're at it, point out to me where I discredited Trinidad like you claim I always do. Like I told you before. Facts are not insults. You just take them that wayQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseSuch distortion of the truth. Trinidad didn't beat De La Hoya. So he shouldn't even be up there. Campas and Vargas won titles after fighting Trinidad. How is that ruining them? A lot of Campas best wins came after the Trinidad fight. Vargas was never the same after he had his back surgery. His back problems are what ruined him. Reid went into the Trinidad fight already ruined. Trinidad was a cash out fight for him. His eye was fucked up and there was no way to fix it. As for Oba Carr? When the fuck are people gonna stop overrating him? Carr was never considered "all that" He had a little hype behind him cuz he was a product of the Kronk gym and went into the Trinidad fight with a pretty 32-0 record. But the people who actually follow boxing (and not just look at records and pretend they know more than they really do) knew it was a hollow 32-0. By all rights It should of been 30-2. Pedro Sanchez dropped him and out fought him. And deserved the win. But that doesn't compare to the bullshit SD win Carr got over 600 year old Livingstone Bramble. Bramble dropped him twice and punked him all night. Carr would of took the loss if the fight wasn't in his hometown. It makes me laugh when I hear clueless people say Trinidad ruined Carr. He didn't ruin Carr. Carr was always just an average fighter. He never beat anyone of note before fighting Trinidad or after fighting Trinidad. But don't let facts stand in the way. Carry on with the distorted facts. Trinidad ruined Carr. He turned an average fighter into less average fighter. Yay. :yay2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry RiceQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
Fighters Tito popped their cherry
Yori Campus
Oba Carr
Oscar De La Hoya
David Reid
Fernando Vargas
Only Oscar was able to go on to other things, everybody else was ruined
Can't except you to be objective about any argument involving a P.R. fighter and a Mexican one. But I can't help but notice how you steer away from the argument that Oscar made a living out of feasting on Trinidad's leftovers. Fine... tear down the Reid's and the Carr's. It's a no-win argument either way. You know what they say about hindsight, or Monday-morning quarterbacking. Makes everyone look like geniuses. My argument is and has always been that, although admittedly Oscar was the better boxer, Trinidad was the more accomplished fighter AND had the more impressive career. Oscar was more globally popular for the same reason Baby Chavez is globally popular. There's millions and millions of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans who will eagerly throw their weight behind any "paisano" that comes along. You can be coddled (Chavez Jr.), or a known cheater (Margarito)... and you still get all the adulation, deserved or not. No hate, just the facts.
Back down, Fido. Down... boy. Nobody's mentioning anything about insults here, only you. In your own predictable fashion, you go off on your (by now very tiresome) tirade about me being overly sensitive and whatnot. I'm only stating my opinion to counter your opinion. Which, by the way, is what it is..... an OPINION. You see.... here's the difference between facts and opinions:
Your opinion is that Oscar had the better career.
My opinion is that Trinidad had the better career.
Follow me? Opinions.
Fact: Trinidad got the decision win over Oscar when they fought.
Deserved or not? Opinion.
See how this shit works?
I'll dumb it down for you and make it less complicated. You said I was tearing down the Reid and Carr wins. When did I do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe problem is a very simple one. You're just to damn sensitive. I mean little 10 year old girl sensitive. You take facts as insults. That's why you think I'm always knocking Trinidad. When in reality I'm not. I wasn't tearing Reid or Carr down. I was just simply providing facts. Or am I lying? Feel free to counter anything I said. Prove I'm making shit up or I'm wrong in what I'm saying. And while you're at it, point out to me where I discredited Trinidad like you claim I always do. Like I told you before. Facts are not insults. You just take them that wayQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseSuch distortion of the truth. Trinidad didn't beat De La Hoya. So he shouldn't even be up there. Campas and Vargas won titles after fighting Trinidad. How is that ruining them? A lot of Campas best wins came after the Trinidad fight. Vargas was never the same after he had his back surgery. His back problems are what ruined him. Reid went into the Trinidad fight already ruined. Trinidad was a cash out fight for him. His eye was fucked up and there was no way to fix it. As for Oba Carr? When the fuck are people gonna stop overrating him? Carr was never considered "all that" He had a little hype behind him cuz he was a product of the Kronk gym and went into the Trinidad fight with a pretty 32-0 record. But the people who actually follow boxing (and not just look at records and pretend they know more than they really do) knew it was a hollow 32-0. By all rights It should of been 30-2. Pedro Sanchez dropped him and out fought him. And deserved the win. But that doesn't compare to the bullshit SD win Carr got over 600 year old Livingstone Bramble. Bramble dropped him twice and punked him all night. Carr would of took the loss if the fight wasn't in his hometown. It makes me laugh when I hear clueless people say Trinidad ruined Carr. He didn't ruin Carr. Carr was always just an average fighter. He never beat anyone of note before fighting Trinidad or after fighting Trinidad. But don't let facts stand in the way. Carry on with the distorted facts. Trinidad ruined Carr. He turned an average fighter into less average fighter. Yay. :yay2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry RiceQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
Fighters Tito popped their cherry
Yori Campus
Oba Carr
Oscar De La Hoya
David Reid
Fernando Vargas
Only Oscar was able to go on to other things, everybody else was ruined
Can't except you to be objective about any argument involving a P.R. fighter and a Mexican one. But I can't help but notice how you steer away from the argument that Oscar made a living out of feasting on Trinidad's leftovers. Fine... tear down the Reid's and the Carr's. It's a no-win argument either way. You know what they say about hindsight, or Monday-morning quarterbacking. Makes everyone look like geniuses. My argument is and has always been that, although admittedly Oscar was the better boxer, Trinidad was the more accomplished fighter AND had the more impressive career. Oscar was more globally popular for the same reason Baby Chavez is globally popular. There's millions and millions of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans who will eagerly throw their weight behind any "paisano" that comes along. You can be coddled (Chavez Jr.), or a known cheater (Margarito)... and you still get all the adulation, deserved or not. No hate, just the facts.
Back down, Fido. Down... boy. Nobody's mentioning anything about insults here, only you. In your own predictable fashion, you go off on your (by now very tiresome) tirade about me being overly sensitive and whatnot. I'm only stating my opinion to counter your opinion. Which, by the way, is what it is..... an OPINION. You see.... here's the difference between facts and opinions:
Your opinion is that Oscar had the better career.
My opinion is that Trinidad had the better career.
Follow me? Opinions.
Fact: Trinidad got the decision win over Oscar when they fought.
Deserved or not? Opinion.
See how this shit works?