Tomasz Adamek vs Evander Holyfield

Why are we having this debate , Adamek is solid at best , Holyfield was great at cw.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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Adamek loses to Holyfield and Joe Frazier. The new modern heavyweights are poor at present and that is the reason why average heavyweights now seem better than they really are.

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You cannot rubbish a modern contender and THEN go on to bring up an ancient HW like Frazier who has so many skeletons in his closet and probably would not be able to even compete as a professional HW today. Try again!

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No need to try again calling Joe non-professional says it all.

I did not say Joe was un-professional. I just implied he would not amount to TODAY what we would describe as a professional HW boxer.

If he kept his weight below the CW limit, sure I think he would be competitive but he demonstratably could not compete with modern superheavyweight punchers.

John Ruiz, Joe Frazier and Roy Jones Jr. could maybe find pockets of success at HW as they all did but they are far too weak to make any serious impact!

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Originally Posted by Max Power

I did not say Joe was un-professional. I just implied he would not amount to TODAY what we would describe as a professional HW boxer.

If he kept his weight below the CW limit, sure I think he would be competitive but he demonstratably could not compete with modern superheavyweight punchers.

John Ruiz, Joe Frazier and Roy Jones Jr. could maybe find pockets of success at HW as they all did but they are far too weak to make any serious impact!

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Putting John Ruiz and Roy Jones Jr in the same sentence as Joe Frazier as HW champions is wrong.

It was pretty evident that Ruiz wasn't having a serious impact on the division while he was active, let alone in a hypothetical 2013.

Holyfield is far and away the better fighter. IMO.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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I think the point you're missing @Max Power is that Holyfield wasn't simply a heavyweight. He was a dominant world champion cruiserweight who moved up to fight the best competition at HW and beat most of them. He held either the WBA, IBF or WBC titles(sometimes all three) at CW or HW from 1986-2001! With the exception of 1989(because he moved up to HW) & 1995.

Lets look at who Holyfield beat at HW:
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz

Now, @Max Power please pick the fighters from this list that you believe Adamek could beat. Also please make a list of Adamek's achievements that suggest that he has done anything similar to coming close to giving a rational person even a sliver of hope of him not being used like toilet paper by THE GREAT Evander Holyfield.

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Ok let's see. Your original statement I don't fully agree with. Evander was a dominant champ at CW and a great one at HW but far from dominant. A dominant champ wins almost all his fights in his reign, Lennox Lewis, only 2ce lost by punchers chance. Tyson lost only to Buster Douglas in what was considered his reign and that was Buster's best performance and one of Tyson's worst (before he was completely shot), Lewis and Tyson were the dominant champs of the era. Holyfield lost to an array of mediocre contenders, that's not dominance and was clearly bested by Bowe (you can't be dominant if there's one fighter that's clearly better.) Being a "4-time HW champ" sounds great but it basically means you had to LOSE it 3 times!

As for your list...

Adamek could easily outpoint the Buster that Holy beat.
George Foreman is too slow to catch Adamek, another UD and Adamek is not chinny enough or stupid enough to get knocked out like Moorer.
Larry Holmes gets the nod from me by decision.
Riddick Bowe would beat him up like Vitali did but I think Adamek would survive for decision loss.
Ray Mercer of the Lewis fight would have Adamek KO but most versions of Ray were too poorly skilled to beat Adamek so most times this is an Adamek DEC.
Mike Tyson would knock Adamek out, Holyfield definitely performs better than Adamek here!
I think Adamek has even chances against Moorer.
I think Adamek beats Ruiz.

So all in all I see a guy who, being a smaller HW would be challenged by the powerful guys but certainly belongs in the league.

And as to your final quip...

Chambers, Cunningham, Guinn, McBride, Grant, Arreola, Golota, Banks. These are respectable win opponents!

And although battered by Vitali, how many of your list of Evander's opponents there could survive against Klitschko? Some certainly... But not many!

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You're mad. You really think Adamek could hold his own in a ring with the likes of Foreman and Holmes?! You do realise when Adamek retires no one will remember him, let alone rate him?

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You're mad. You really think Adamek could hold his own in a ring with the likes of Foreman and Holmes?! You do realise when Adamek retires no one will remember him, let alone rate him?

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The versions of Holmes and Foreman that Holy fought were more experienced than their younger versions and heftier but they were far slower. Against an opponent like Adamek, this would amount to a disadvantage compared to what is normally considered "prime" for them. Young Foreman for example would finish Adamek quick. Young Holmes would be the one to out whack Adamek all night. But the ones that fought Holy were not that fast against a skilled opponent like Adamek.

Spoken like a true asshole that last bit. I have a feeling in Europe Tomasz will be remembered as a multiple world titlist he is. Only in the US where I assume you're from will you choose to ignore the present in favour of home bred heroes from ages ago.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

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You're mad. You really think Adamek could hold his own in a ring with the likes of Foreman and Holmes?! You do realise when Adamek retires no one will remember him, let alone rate him?

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The versions of Holmes and Foreman that Holy fought were more experienced than their younger versions and heftier but they were far slower. Against an opponent like Adamek, this would amount to a disadvantage compared to what is normally considered "prime" for them. Young Foreman for example would finish Adamek quick. Young Holmes would be the one to out whack Adamek all night. But the ones that fought Holy were not that fast against a skilled opponent like Adamek.

Spoken like a true asshole that last bit. I have a feeling in Europe Tomasz will be remembered as a multiple world titlist he is. Only in the US where I assume you're from will you choose to ignore the present in favour of home bred heroes from ages ago.

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He is from England, check his flag.

Not sure how anyone can dismiss the snap accurate jab of even the old Holmes vs Adamek who was arguably out jabbed badly by a Cunningham and bothered big time by a fly swatting one armed Chambers. Holmes and Foremans jabs were Hell, even for ol geezers.

Spicoli I didn't dismiss it at all! I stated above that Holmes, even old Holmes, gets the nod over Adamek!

And sure Foreman was always a challenge for any boxer but I think Adamek might be able to play hit and run with the old man.

Certainly I don't think Adamek will be "taking the fight" to either of these guys!

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Spicoli I didn't dismiss it at all! I stated above that Holmes, even old Holmes, gets the nod over Adamek!

And sure Foreman was always a challenge for any boxer but I think Adamek might be able to play hit and run with the old man.

Certainly I don't think Adamek will be "taking the fight" to either of these guys!

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I'm confused why this thread was ever started.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

I did not say Joe was un-professional. I just implied he would not amount to TODAY what we would describe as a professional HW boxer.

If he kept his weight below the CW limit, sure I think he would be competitive but he demonstratably could not compete with modern superheavyweight punchers.

John Ruiz, Joe Frazier and Roy Jones Jr. could maybe find pockets of success at HW as they all did but they are far too weak to make any serious impact!

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I agree with this. Joe Frazier wouldnt be successful against the modern HWs.. He would be a tough, fringe contender maybe not even that..

Well DarkLordAl, since it's accepted that Adamek is a bit out of depth today against the Klitschko's who far outsize him, I wondered simply how the forum would see him going against a former great who was more his own size. There was no other agenda, I personally view Holyfield as a modern fighter anyway (he virtually pioneered the term with his once radical but now universal training regime) and believe he clearly bests Adamek as the others here seem to believe as well.

However the response has seemed to skew this thread into a different topic. That HW's today couldn't hold a candle to their ancestors. That's a mistake! Or a very biased view.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Well DarkLordAl, since it's accepted that Adamek is a bit out of depth today against the Klitschko's who far outsize him, I wondered simply how the forum would see him going against a former great who was more his own size. There was no other agenda, I personally view Holyfield as a modern fighter anyway (he virtually pioneered the term with his once radical but now universal training regime) and believe he clearly bests Adamek as the others here seem to believe as well.

However the response has seemed to skew this thread into a different topic. That HW's today couldn't hold a candle to their ancestors. That's a mistake! Or a very biased view.

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Firstly I don't buy into the oldies at HW being better either , secondly I answered your question , Holyfield was great at CW , and would have won by stoppage.