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Changed the fight for sure but not the outcome. I watched 6 or 7 early Ricky fights yesterday because I have a bug. Compliments of Woobase. Blows my mind some don't appreciate his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Best keep any reference to Floyds fight with Ricky as evidence to something valid to a minimum. That was quite possibly the biggest freakin ref hack job that I have ever seen in this sport. Strike that. Not possibly but is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Is that woobase from the old ESPN forums? Did u post on there as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonChanged the fight for sure but not the outcome. I watched 6 or 7 early Ricky fights yesterday because I have a bug. Compliments of Woobase. Blows my mind some don't appreciate his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitBest keep any reference to Floyds fight with Ricky as evidence to something valid to a minimum. That was quite possibly the biggest freakin ref hack job that I have ever seen in this sport. Strike that. Not possibly but is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
The would it have changed the outcome like it was a given is lame. How can anyone be so sure of that since Cortez was a factor in the proceedings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonChanged the fight for sure but not the outcome. I watched 6 or 7 early Ricky fights yesterday because I have a bug. Compliments of Woobase. Blows my mind some don't appreciate his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitBest keep any reference to Floyds fight with Ricky as evidence to something valid to a minimum. That was quite possibly the biggest freakin ref hack job that I have ever seen in this sport. Strike that. Not possibly but is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Thats always cracked me up.
Yeah, I go way backQuote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodIs that woobase from the old ESPN forums? Did u post on there as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonChanged the fight for sure but not the outcome. I watched 6 or 7 early Ricky fights yesterday because I have a bug. Compliments of Woobase. Blows my mind some don't appreciate his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitBest keep any reference to Floyds fight with Ricky as evidence to something valid to a minimum. That was quite possibly the biggest freakin ref hack job that I have ever seen in this sport. Strike that. Not possibly but is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitThe would it have changed the outcome like it was a given is lame. How can anyone be so sure of that since Cortez was a factor in the proceedings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonChanged the fight for sure but not the outcome. I watched 6 or 7 early Ricky fights yesterday because I have a bug. Compliments of Woobase. Blows my mind some don't appreciate his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitBest keep any reference to Floyds fight with Ricky as evidence to something valid to a minimum. That was quite possibly the biggest freakin ref hack job that I have ever seen in this sport. Strike that. Not possibly but is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Thats always cracked me up.
It was probably nice to get caught up in all the Hatton fever leading up to the fight... but seriously.
You're giving Ricky way too much credit.
Who were the 4 HOFers? Oscar was one, but you have to admit he was WELL past his prime. Do you mean Gatti and Chico????? Chico was a great win, but even Floyd admitted Gatti was a C fighter. Anyways, Floyd has fought better competition overall, as he is the biggest name in the sport. That being said, at similar points in their careers I feel that Ward has beaten better competition. I don't think he is as gifted as Floyd, I think both are equally skilled, but I feel that Ward is a little tougher, and little more willing to go to war. There is no comparison between the two at this point, because after Hatton Floyd beat some good competition. The worst thing for Ward is that I don't see anyone for him to challenge himself against. Maybe if Kov or Stevenson unify and prove to be legit and GGG keeps winning and moves up. Other than that, there just isn't the competition at 168-175, basically because he has beaten everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Kessler and Froch best wins are pretty much them beating each other i mean come on now. I mean Calzaghe who was like what 35 beat prime undefeated Kessler with pretty easy hell he even hurt the man with body shot Ward got the scraps. As for Dawson he lost to fucking Pascal and was weight drain pretty fucking bad as well which you don't mention. Have Andre Ward move up to lhw and Cw and win a belt and maybe we can have a talk about saying his name in same sentence as Mayweather. Also i hate given the man credit i fell if he had a Hearns or Leonard in ww Mayweather would of never even bothered to go ww but he is hell of alot better the ward i mean at 130 and 135 he wrecked people. I mean he just took a win off a undefeated champ at 154 and Mayweather was not even prime anymore.
we have to distinguish opinion from factQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitThe would it have changed the outcome like it was a given is lame. How can anyone be so sure of that since Cortez was a factor in the proceedings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonChanged the fight for sure but not the outcome. I watched 6 or 7 early Ricky fights yesterday because I have a bug. Compliments of Woobase. Blows my mind some don't appreciate his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitBest keep any reference to Floyds fight with Ricky as evidence to something valid to a minimum. That was quite possibly the biggest freakin ref hack job that I have ever seen in this sport. Strike that. Not possibly but is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Thats always cracked me up.
It was probably nice to get caught up in all the Hatton fever leading up to the fight... but seriously.
You're giving Ricky way too much credit.
the fight would have been different, the ref was officiating in a way that benefitted mayweather
ricky certainly would have a much better chance
Even virgil hunter calls ward p4p number 2 and andre is basically his son.
And that's with Floyd clearly diminished he's still number one. He was number 2 p4p 16 years ago. At some point people have to see that accomplishment for what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
And you're leaving out Hatton. There are others that deserve consideration as well in JLC x2, Genaro Hernandez, to me Jesus Chavez is on par with Wards opponents and what about Carlos Hernandez, and Carlos Rios, Zab Judah, Angel Manfredy, Carlos Gerena, Gregarious Vargas. You want to dismiss Sharmba and that's fine he wasn't great and he was diminished but he was a good fighter and Baldy for all the crap we give him was a good fighter at the time as well. I could list at least 4 more fighters better than Allen Green but he props Ward up? I'm sorry man but that's lunacyQuote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodWho were the 4 HOFers? Oscar was one, but you have to admit he was WELL past his prime. Do you mean Gatti and Chico????? Chico was a great win, but even Floyd admitted Gatti was a C fighter. Anyways, Floyd has fought better competition overall, as he is the biggest name in the sport. That being said, at similar points in their careers I feel that Ward has beaten better competition. I don't think he is as gifted as Floyd, I think both are equally skilled, but I feel that Ward is a little tougher, and little more willing to go to war. There is no comparison between the two at this point, because after Hatton Floyd beat some good competition. The worst thing for Ward is that I don't see anyone for him to challenge himself against. Maybe if Kov or Stevenson unify and prove to be legit and GGG keeps winning and moves up. Other than that, there just isn't the competition at 168-175, basically because he has beaten everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Floyd was fighting longer. That's like comparing Floyd's record to JCC... just cant do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonAnd you're leaving out Hatton. There are others that deserve consideration as well in JLC x2, Genaro Hernandez, to me Jesus Chavez is on par with Wards opponents and what about Carlos Hernandez, and Carlos Rios, Zab Judah, Angel Manfredy, Carlos Gerena, Gregarious Vargas. You want to dismiss Sharmba and that's fine he wasn't great and he was diminished but he was a good fighter and Baldy for all the crap we give him was a good fighter at the time as well. I could list at least 4 more fighters better than Allen Green but he props Ward up? I'm sorry man but that's lunacyQuote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodWho were the 4 HOFers? Oscar was one, but you have to admit he was WELL past his prime. Do you mean Gatti and Chico????? Chico was a great win, but even Floyd admitted Gatti was a C fighter. Anyways, Floyd has fought better competition overall, as he is the biggest name in the sport. That being said, at similar points in their careers I feel that Ward has beaten better competition. I don't think he is as gifted as Floyd, I think both are equally skilled, but I feel that Ward is a little tougher, and little more willing to go to war. There is no comparison between the two at this point, because after Hatton Floyd beat some good competition. The worst thing for Ward is that I don't see anyone for him to challenge himself against. Maybe if Kov or Stevenson unify and prove to be legit and GGG keeps winning and moves up. Other than that, there just isn't the competition at 168-175, basically because he has beaten everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
But, if you were to pick Floyd's top 5 and Ward's top 5, it may look a little better. And I'm not even trying to do that- alls I'm saying that style for style if it came down to p4p, I would pick Ward to beat Floyd.
Shit... I don't even think Floyd wants to get in there with GGG. He may do Cotto 2 just to say he got a MW title. But he should fight GGG or Quillin if he wants to fight at MW.
Ron, check it out. We are comparing Floyd vs. Ward at similar stages of their careers. The Hatton fight took place during Floyd's 11th year (pretty much 12th year) as he turned pro in 1996 and that fight happened late December of 2007 (2007-1996=11 years). Hatton is one of his more impressive wins, for sure, but he isn't a HOF fighter in my opinion, is he one in yours???? The reason I included Green in that line up is because he was in the Super 6 and was a top ten ranked 168 pounder. I don't view that as one of Ward's better wins though, so I will leave him out of future points. Now, breaking down quality of opposition:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonAnd you're leaving out Hatton. There are others that deserve consideration as well in JLC x2, Genaro Hernandez, to me Jesus Chavez is on par with Wards opponents and what about Carlos Hernandez, and Carlos Rios, Zab Judah, Angel Manfredy, Carlos Gerena, Gregarious Vargas. You want to dismiss Sharmba and that's fine he wasn't great and he was diminished but he was a good fighter and Baldy for all the crap we give him was a good fighter at the time as well. I could list at least 4 more fighters better than Allen Green but he props Ward up? I'm sorry man but that's lunacyQuote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodWho were the 4 HOFers? Oscar was one, but you have to admit he was WELL past his prime. Do you mean Gatti and Chico????? Chico was a great win, but even Floyd admitted Gatti was a C fighter. Anyways, Floyd has fought better competition overall, as he is the biggest name in the sport. That being said, at similar points in their careers I feel that Ward has beaten better competition. I don't think he is as gifted as Floyd, I think both are equally skilled, but I feel that Ward is a little tougher, and little more willing to go to war. There is no comparison between the two at this point, because after Hatton Floyd beat some good competition. The worst thing for Ward is that I don't see anyone for him to challenge himself against. Maybe if Kov or Stevenson unify and prove to be legit and GGG keeps winning and moves up. Other than that, there just isn't the competition at 168-175, basically because he has beaten everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Floyd fought (giving you the extra year to include Hatton): Hatton (undefeated, lineal champ, P4P, good win), Chico (undefeated, P4P, good win) and JLC (lineal 135lb champ, good win). Those 3 stand out as his best wins and though none of them are HOF material in my opinion, he was still impressive in beating them. Next you have guys like Carlos Baldomir (lineal 147, solid win), Zab Judah (prior champ, naturally talented, decent win). Next come the guys like Manfredy (solid fighter), Jesus Chavez (tough guy, titlist), Famoso Hernandez (solid fighter), Genaro Hernandez (good fighter, but at the end of his career and talking retirement prior to the fight), and Vargas (decent).
Ward fought: Froch (multiple time titlist who has beaten better competition in Bute, Pascal, Kessler, Groves, Dirrel...etc. than Hatton or Chico did), Kessler (who was the #1 ranked guy at the weight and the favorite to win the tournament) Dawson (who beat Hop, Tarver and Glenn Johnson when they were all still viable fighters and was lineal champ at 175. I can see your point for favoring Floyd's three biggest wins, but I can also see the other side and ranking Ward's wins as more impressive.
Next level down are: Arthur Abraham (multiple weight titlist who had been outclassed vs. Dirrel and Froch), Pascal (undefeated went on to become lineal champ), Sakio Bika (titlist and awkward fighter). Some similarities here between Floyd and Ward's opponents. Strong, physically imposing challengers in Bika and Baldy (I give the edge to Bika because he was more athletic and unorthodox). Formidable ex-titlist, knockout threats who had seen better days in Abraham and Judah (I give Judah the edge because of his natural talent, although Abraham kept his composure better over 12 rounds). Pascal is a tough guy to fight, and in my opinion a better version of Judah, since he doesn't fall apart after 4 rounds. Both guys were a little inconsistent at times, however.
Final level for Ward is guys like Glenn Johnson, an old warhorse who wasn't as effective at 168 (but similar match up to Genaro Hernandez). Alan Green who could punch and was a decent boxer skillwise but fell apart at the elite level (similar to Famoso Hernandez and Jesus Chavez who weren't exactly world beaters). Edison Miranda who was a limited puncher (and not as impressive as Manfredy and Vargas).
After breaking it down and looking at the different levels of fighters, I tend to agree that Floyd fought and beat more quality guys at a similar stage of his career. That being said, I can see a case for Ward beating more higher level fighters than Floyd at the same stage (Dawson > Chico, Froch > Castillo...etc.). Both are extremely skilled fighters and I think it comes down to what you prefer in a fighter as to which guy you think is better. If you are comparing them straight up at this moment though, I have to agree that it isn't even a debate as Floyd has beaten much more and tougher competition. I'm hoping that Ward will be like Hop was and be hard headed and frustrating and then start making nothing but big fights once he got his business right.
There is big a problem Ward has never beaten a guy who was rated pound for pound top ten at the time they fought him. Also Mayweather had already moved up and taken on much bigger guys then him. Ward has yet to move up to lhw or cw his best wins are Froch and Kesseler both got schooled by the top guys and may not be hofers themselves they were never even top guys in there division. Kessler was fighting no ones after getting outclassed Calzaghe who was what 35 at the time. That version of Kessler was defeated and had not fought anyone of note since Calzghe fight and after Ward beat him up he goes on to beat Froch so how are these guys great wins really i mean there just contenders with a belt really. None of them beat the top guys they lost it just like Hatton lost against the top guys but at least he was top dog at 140 neither Froch or Kessler have done that.
Floyd is fighting out of his weight class..andre is not and I like andre.
Dont listen to me, listen to floyd sr.