Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
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Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
i remember years ago thinking that wlad was highly overrated. he was so one dimensional yet, steward helped him become effective in that one dimension. his biggest downfall for me though is not just that he got KO'd by lesser opponents (because i could get past that), but its that in my mind, he became dominant when the rest of the decent HWs retired. i regard the HW division of the last 10 years very low. honestly, i dont put anybody on wlads list of victims above a C level fighter (and thats being generous to some). the best fighters that he has faced are byrd and haye. i think that he had a perfect style to beat byrd so that was more of a style makes fights. haye was a decent win but i feel like haye was scared and could have made it more competitive if he would have tried.
either way, his lack of good opposition is to his detriment because he has shown me that he has gotten better over the years, but hasnt shown me that he has truly fixed his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. because of his accomplishments though, i have to put him in the top 15.
In saying all that about Wlad, what would you say about Joe Louis' competition? Or Rocky Marciano's?
louis' competition is underrated. everybody brings up the bum of the month but nobody understands they called it that because he was black and it made his accomplishments seem less than what they were. you can imagine if it were a white man doing it, they definitely wouldnt be calling his fights the bum of the month.
with that said, louis fought some solid competition and fought bigger fighters too. max baer and schmelling were both very good fighters. baer was known as extremely dangerous and louis destroyed him. louis did lose to schmelling very early in his career but came back to easily win. billy conn was a great fighter although smaller but still very good. he fought both charles and walcott at the end of his career. charles is widely known as the best LHW ever and walcott was a solid HW who he KO'd in their second fight. there are a few other alright names on his resume. and again, you can say some of these fighters were small compared to todays HWs but he fought max baer, buddy baer, primo carnera, and abe simon who were all around the same size as todays HWs. and he KO'd them all.
marciano doesnt have a great resume. most of his competition was old when he fought them. he is a great fighter but i always have trouble ranking him because of the reason i have for ranking wlad. the competition just isnt there and marciano showed glaring weaknesses about being able to be outboxed. he was just durable and never gave up.
Ask me bollow. there is not one fighter on Louis rec that would beat Wlad. Part of the reason hes considered such a great fighter is because he was black in such a tough era for black americans. If he was white he wouldnt be held in such high regard.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
louis was targeted because being the HW champion was something special that a black man shouldnt have the opportunity to have. jack johnson did have a bum of the month because he didnt defend his title as much and as long as louis did.
i mainly named fighters like carnera and simon to prove a point that some people have (not saying you) that all HW fighters used to be small (like around 200 lbs). louis beat fighters who were well over 6 feet and weighed well into the 200's. i understand that carnera isnt really that good and was kind of a joke.
but to answer your question, its an eye test. i have seen quite a bit of film of baer and schmelling. enough footage to rate them fairly accurately. ive probably seen more footage of them than ive seen of certain wlad opponents like wach or povetkin. i feel like when i watch many of wlads opponents, they remind me of carnera. big but slow. they probably have a decent punch because of their size but lack many basic fundamentals. haye is one opponent who was better but used his athleticism more than his fundamentals. if he fought a smarter fight, he probably could have won that fight.
Yeah but Jack Johnson was also HW champ and I don't remember ever reading or hearing anyone calling his opponents "Bum of the Month" club. Whether they did it to Louis because he was black or not, the name was appropriate because a lot of those motherfuckers were bums, in some cases I'm sure both literally and figuratively.
Joe beat some big boys, the Baer brothers were big and could fight, but were they really that better than a Tony Thompson, or someone along those lines? What did they do specifically that was better than Thompson, or Rahman, or whoever.
Wlad whipped a lot of big guys, but he also whipped a lot of good small guys, too. He dominated a prime Chris Byrd, someone with world class boxing mechanics (and a guy who Lennox Lewis refused to fight). Calvin Brock, Eddie Chambers, Haye, Mormeck... these were all smaller, mobile guys with solid mechanics in there. What did Schmeling do that these guys couldn't?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Lennox refused to fight Byrd and Ruiz so what? He would have beat them anyway and he chose bigger and better opposition
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
Master
Lennox refused to fight Byrd and Ruiz so what? He would have beat them anyway and he chose bigger and better opposition
I don't know if I'd classify guys like Frans Botha, Tua, Rahman, and whoever else he was fighting at the time as being better than Byrd. They were hot fighters at the time for sure, but Byrd had that crafty, nasty style that would have given Lewis fits. And Ruiz had that ugly wrestling style.
I'm not saying Lewis would have lost to either of them, but I think it's pretty obvious he felt that there was a good possibility he wouldn't look good fighting either of them.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
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Originally Posted by
Master
Lennox refused to fight Byrd and Ruiz so what? He would have beat them anyway and he chose bigger and better opposition
I don't know if I'd classify guys like Frans Botha, Tua, Rahman, and whoever else he was fighting at the time as being better than Byrd. They were hot fighters at the time for sure, but Byrd had that crafty, nasty style that would have given Lewis fits. And Ruiz had that ugly wrestling style.
I'm not saying Lewis would have lost to either of them, but I think it's pretty obvious he felt that there was a good possibility he wouldn't look good fighting either of them.
I think the main reason he didn't fight Byrd and Ruiz is because one or both were handled by Don King at the time and that's what kept the belts divided up for so long....greedy promoters not willing to risk their cash cows.
I think if Lewis would have had a problem with Byrd or Ruiz it would have been Byrd. I believe Lewis was certainly strong and quick enough to dispatch Ruiz early on and Ruiz could block shots but avoiding them altogether? Not so much.
Lewis would have beaten both, but everyone knows he wanted to fight Kirk Johnson win by dominant KO and call it a career.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
I can see why Lennox didn't take the fight with Byrd because he wanted the Tyson showdown, but I still say he would have struggled heavily vs Byrd. I think Chris was a brutal matchup for him, especially at that stage of his career.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
I can see why Lennox didn't take the fight with Byrd because he wanted the Tyson showdown, but I still say he would have struggled heavily vs Byrd. I think Chris was a brutal matchup for him, especially at that stage of his career.
Chris Byrd was a really good heavyweight and I hate that he doesn't get more credit. Good defense, fast hands, not much power, but he shocked a few guys out there.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
For sure, IMO one of the best pure boxers in the history of the HW division. Ballsy too. Took the fight with Vitali on 7 days notice, even in losing the first half of the fight he was making Vitali miss and frustrating him, then turned the pressure on, started hurting him with vicious body shots and started walking him down.
So even if Lennox beat him, he knew he wasn't knocking him out, he knew Chris was going to make him miss a lot, he knew Chris had no fear of him and he knew that he'd really have to work for every round and wouldn't be able to sit back and take rounds off. It's a tough fight for him, especially at that point.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Tua beat both Ruiz and was considered more dangerous than Byrd. Lewis was made £1million and a range rover for giving up his title.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
Master
Tua beat both Ruiz and was considered more dangerous than Byrd. Lewis was made £1million and a range rover for giving up his title.
David Tua did NOT beat Chris Byrd
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Master
Tua beat both Ruiz and was considered more dangerous than Byrd. Lewis was made £1million and a range rover for giving up his title.
David Tua did NOT beat Chris Byrd
I know I should not have put in both but most people preferred to see Tua v Lennox than either Byrd or Ruiz. John Ruiz would have been easy for Lennox like Botha was.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Disagreed there, Ruiz wasn't great but he was leagues above Botha.
Again, I don't fault Lewis for not fighting those guys, because he could make more money fighting lesser opposition. Ruiz would have been a tough fight for him given his ugly style, and Byrd would have made him look bad, even in winning.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
Anyway my point in bringing up Byrd was that he was a fantastic HW and Wlad beat his ass like no one else could. Wlad's beaten just about every size and style there is in the HW division.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Disagreed there, Ruiz wasn't great but he was leagues above Botha.
Again, I don't fault Lewis for not fighting those guys, because he could make more money fighting lesser opposition. Ruiz would have been a tough fight for him given his ugly style, and Byrd would have made him look bad, even in winning.
Ruiz was open for an uppercut from Lennox and big right hands. He was limited and only managed to hold on to the title by fighting poor old fighters and dumb luck.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?
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Originally Posted by
Master
Ruiz was open for an uppercut from Lennox and big right hands. He was limited and only managed to hold on to the title by fighting poor old fighters and dumb luck.
He was limited but he was a legit top 3 guy at the time. Botha stunk and was always a joke.
But Ruiz was a man, he called Lewis out and called him a girl for not fighting him, and Lennox chose to fight Kirk Johnson, the guy who Ruiz had just beat, instead. I mean it's not like Ruiz was a Shannon Briggs character trying to talk himself into a fight, he was a legit champ at the time.
