Fantastic posts, need to watch this. My decision will be final. No arguments. Once I have charged the tablet up.
Fantastic posts, need to watch this. My decision will be final. No arguments. Once I have charged the tablet up.
[QUOTE=SRR;1405772][QUOTE=TitoFan;1405758][QUOTE=Vendettos;1405753]https://www.askideas.com/media/40/Fu...ro-Picture.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I find it highly ironic that you're banging on about the injustice of the decision and the 'fix' being in because the scorecards were all the same, and in the same breath you bring out the old trope that you have to snatch the title from the champion, as if it's necessary to separate the head of your opponent from his shoulders and then chow down on his grey matter in the middle of the ring just to have a fair chance of eking out a SD on the scorecards. Absolute BULLSHIT. A fight is scored impartially irrespective of circumstance (or should be). Points mean prizes, regardless of whether you like the guy's style or not, or which direction he happens to be travelling in when he scores them. Nowhere in the rules of boxing is it suggested or implied that going backwards loses you points, or that moving forward wins you points, or tips the scales in tight rounds. These ideas are perpetuated by people who are either too lazy to score a fight properly, considering all of the subtle mechanics involved, or simply allow their preference for come forward fighters to cloud their vision of what actually transpired. From everything you've said I would place you in the latter category. It seems that a knockdown and dominant opening to the fight by Kovalev (I say dominant although the difference was really a hard jab in the first round, which one might attribute to natural power and greater size, but let's not even get into that as I'm sure you're already rolling your eyes) has convinced you that he was 'the man' in this fight. So answer me this. If he was the man, why couldn't he hurt him after the second round? How did he go from smothering Ward on the inside with double under hooks and a smart use of his superior size leaning on him, to receiving multiple left uppercuts to his right flank and multiple right hooks to his head and body on the left flank? Was he the man when Ward came inside, landed 4, 5 punches then angled off and landed another sweeping right hand under his left hand, which was still up trying to protect his chin from all those hooks? Was he in control when he was eating jabs to the body every round, consistently, and solid jabs to the chin (not at the end of his range, either, but hard jabs that Ward was stepping in behind before sliding back out as a left hook or right hand was fired back). You talk about Kovalev being the aggressor, you imply that he controlled this fight, but where was the cutting off of the ring that would have indicated real control of his opponent? When did Kovalev ever pin Ward on the ropes and throw 2 or 3 punches and hurt him? At one point Ward moved in a circle around Kovalev with his feet side on at an absolute CANTER and any boxer worth his salt would have stepped to his right and backed him into the ropes, or thrown a quick 1-2 as he passed across his line of sight, or moved forward and thrown a right hook and followed it with his fabled 'reverse 1-2', but he did NONE of those things. Can you not see that control is not so simple as moving forward in a straight line?Quote:
Originally Posted by VendettosOf those four rounds you mention, I see no way anyone can give Ward round 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
All he did was run backwards and grapple.
The others were closer, but I gave them to the defending champion who was the aggressor (and still gave Ward round 3).
Kovalev made the fight his fight in the first two rounds, but after that Ward slowly but steadily took over. His work was clean and consistent, and Kovalev chasing him around the ring doesn't change that fact. In fact, it supports the idea that Ward won. If Kovalev had cut off the ring, pinned him on the ropes, Jesus, just hurt him with a single flush shot after round 2, put some kind of pressure on him, punched him in the shoulder or the arms, you could argue for Kovalev winning those close rounds. But as it was, Kovalev simply played into wards hands, and did nothing after round 5/6 to stop him working effectively inside or out whilst Ward managed to neutralise his right hand (so much so that at one point Kovalev actually switched stances briefly and launched himself forward as Ward followed him, allowing him to land a nice left hand - more of this could have won Kovalev the fight in my eyes, but this was his only real improvisation) completely, taking away his power and leaving him fumbling around wondering exactly how to beat him. Now moving into the later rounds (9-12) having taken quite a few crisp body shots, jabs and some sharp left hooks, Kovalev slowed down, but more than this, he suffered a mental capitulation that all but sealed Ward's impending victory. You talk about Ward not doing enough to take the champion's title, but he came up a weight, fought a bigger man with a huge advantage in power and reach (which if you know anything about boxing you realise is crucially important since it means it's not only easier for the bigger man to land his shots but those shots will do more damage, whilst the reverse is true for the man coming up), was hurt in round one and two, and STILL got up and outboxed his opponent, taking his greatest strengths (power, stalking and trapping his opponents, usually by disrupting or stunning with the jab first and finishing with the right hand, or reverse jab). He did this with lateral movement, upper body/head movement and simple, fundamental parries. And in those later rounds, Kovalev gave up. You can call bullshit all you want, but I've sparred with enough big men to recognise the look in the eyes when they finally accept the fact they ain't going to hit you, you aren't going to let them fight their fight, they are tired and you do seem twice as fast as when the fight started because you've been making them miss and making them pay, and they're tired and used to rolling people over in the early rounds, and they feel like their body and their mind has completely failed them. Andre didn't do anything Kovalev shouldn't have expected. There has been some speculation that Kovalev doesn't give his trainer the time of day (a man who was trained by George Benton ffs, how can you not stand up and take notice?) and the fact that simply moving to the side or circling around, or moving in low, clinching and working inside was enough to derail and defang Kovalev suggests that this might well be true, because there is no doubt that Jackson knew exactly how Ward would fight and I'm sure he wouldn't have kept it a secret from his fighter, especially since it seems that a win for ward represented not just one but two scalps in this fight, one for the (God)father and one for the son.
The point is, despite all his ineffectual ambling in Ward's general direction, Kovalev did very little to support the argument that he controlled this fight. He allowed himself to be manipulated to the point where his frustration became obvious for anyone with eyes to see, and controlling this fight from round 3 onwards, as well as the more varied and clean work, meant that Ward won the fight. He showed he was the superior fighter on the night, and all of the faux aggression in the world can't change that fact. Having said all that I believe Kovalev could well beat Ward in a rematch, IF he makes the necessary adjustments and is willing to box clever instead of looking dumbfounded and reaching for another right hand. Kovalev is good boxer-puncher but his limitations were glaringly obvious tonight. His inability to adapt was exposed against a fighter 17 years Hopkins' junior, and I can't say I'm surprised. However, with a few tweaks (which could even have been made in the fight) Kovalev could have gotten Ward out of there, but he failed to do this. Ward set the pattern, and Kovalev had no answer. I haven't posted here in a whole but it really irks me that so called boxing fans can be so blind to the reality of their own most cherished sport. By all means say you wanted Kovalev to win, say that you enjoyed his performance more despite the fact he fell short, even say that you feel, on a subjective point of view, that his aggression, however ineffective, constitutes a victory on the scorecards, but please, don't cry robbery just because the guy you didn't want to win completely outfoxed and nullified the big bad wolf and ruined your Saturday night execution.
And one final thing. On the question of protecting fighters' records, let's not forget that Kovalev is undoubtedly the more popular fighter of the two, and the fighter more likely to bring in money on PPVs and arena tickets, so where is the notion that anyone would favour Ward coming in? He's the boring fighter, so it doesn't make sense from a commercial perspective to suggest that the judges would favour him in order to make the TV companies and the fans happy (if you want proof of this just listen to the booing of Ward after the fight, and the cheers for Kovalev which only died down when Kovalev effectively went full Putin and accused American boxing of being *gasp* corrupt to the core).
I joke I joke, a lengthy post but a good one.
I don't agree with the outrage and roberry claims, but, and its a pretty big BUT, boxing asks for this sort of outcry when they pick the judges so poorly, if you had an american, an englishman and a french man other than the start of a good joke you would also have a fair judging panel, now I'm not saying that the judges were corrupt or that they were biased but this is boxing remember, the 'most corrupt sport ever' the fact that they all had Ward winning by one point will cause people to raise eyebrows just as much as if they had scored it as a 12 round shut out to Ward.
[QUOTE=Primo Carnera;1405724I'm a bit ignorant as to who is connected to which channel in the States, but :
a. Which channel does Ward do work for? And
b. Which channel does Kovalev usually fight on?
[/QUOTE]
Kovalev has been on hbo for a while now, hbo like kovalev. Ward has been hbo recently too but before that I cant remember as he likes to not fight much :S
I understand what your saying but scoring shouldn't be judged on how big the fight is.. every fighter world class or pub puts there life on the line to make money and give us a show.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
Here's what I think it is, Vend.
Had this been a regular fight, with no nationalistic overtones, or an American S.O.G. with an undefeated record..... it may not have been so bad. Still the wrong decision, but nothing to be angry about. But given the magnitude and the circumstances..... as well as the utter predictability of the judges decision..... it made it all the more ridiculous.
It's the utter predictability of the decision. Some of us were calling it since midway through the fight.
Kovalev wasn't going to get a fair shake, no matter what.
I felt Ward won but I fully understand why you believe what you do man.
I thought ward won also
I'd wouldn't have argued if kov won
What I can't understand is anyone saying either of them dominated anything, every round was really close
[QUOTE=SRR;1405772][QUOTE=TitoFan;1405758][QUOTE=Vendettos;1405753]No wonder you've only written 140 posts in 8 years if they're all that long!;D;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanI find it highly ironic that you're banging on about the injustice of the decision and the 'fix' being in because the scorecards were all the same, and in the same breath you bring out the old trope that you have to snatch the title from the champion, as if it's necessary to separate the head of your opponent from his shoulders and then chow down on his grey matter in the middle of the ring just to have a fair chance of eking out a SD on the scorecards. Absolute BULLSHIT. A fight is scored impartially irrespective of circumstance (or should be). Points mean prizes, regardless of whether you like the guy's style or not, or which direction he happens to be travelling in when he scores them. Nowhere in the rules of boxing is it suggested or implied that going backwards loses you points, or that moving forward wins you points, or tips the scales in tight rounds. These ideas are perpetuated by people who are either too lazy to score a fight properly, considering all of the subtle mechanics involved, or simply allow their preference for come forward fighters to cloud their vision of what actually transpired. From everything you've said I would place you in the latter category. It seems that a knockdown and dominant opening to the fight by Kovalev (I say dominant although the difference was really a hard jab in the first round, which one might attribute to natural power and greater size, but let's not even get into that as I'm sure you're already rolling your eyes) has convinced you that he was 'the man' in this fight. So answer me this. If he was the man, why couldn't he hurt him after the second round? How did he go from smothering Ward on the inside with double under hooks and a smart use of his superior size leaning on him, to receiving multiple left uppercuts to his right flank and multiple right hooks to his head and body on the left flank? Was he the man when Ward came inside, landed 4, 5 punches then angled off and landed another sweeping right hand under his left hand, which was still up trying to protect his chin from all those hooks? Was he in control when he was eating jabs to the body every round, consistently, and solid jabs to the chin (not at the end of his range, either, but hard jabs that Ward was stepping in behind before sliding back out as a left hook or right hand was fired back). You talk about Kovalev being the aggressor, you imply that he controlled this fight, but where was the cutting off of the ring that would have indicated real control of his opponent? When did Kovalev ever pin Ward on the ropes and throw 2 or 3 punches and hurt him? At one point Ward moved in a circle around Kovalev with his feet side on at an absolute CANTER and any boxer worth his salt would have stepped to his right and backed him into the ropes, or thrown a quick 1-2 as he passed across his line of sight, or moved forward and thrown a right hook and followed it with his fabled 'reverse 1-2', but he did NONE of those things. Can you not see that control is not so simple as moving forward in a straight line?Quote:
Originally Posted by VendettosOf those four rounds you mention, I see no way anyone can give Ward round 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
All he did was run backwards and grapple.
The others were closer, but I gave them to the defending champion who was the aggressor (and still gave Ward round 3).
Kovalev made the fight his fight in the first two rounds, but after that Ward slowly but steadily took over. His work was clean and consistent, and Kovalev chasing him around the ring doesn't change that fact. In fact, it supports the idea that Ward won. If Kovalev had cut off the ring, pinned him on the ropes, Jesus, just hurt him with a single flush shot after round 2, put some kind of pressure on him, punched him in the shoulder or the arms, you could argue for Kovalev winning those close rounds. But as it was, Kovalev simply played into wards hands, and did nothing after round 5/6 to stop him working effectively inside or out whilst Ward managed to neutralise his right hand (so much so that at one point Kovalev actually switched stances briefly and launched himself forward as Ward followed him, allowing him to land a nice left hand - more of this could have won Kovalev the fight in my eyes, but this was his only real improvisation) completely, taking away his power and leaving him fumbling around wondering exactly how to beat him. Now moving into the later rounds (9-12) having taken quite a few crisp body shots, jabs and some sharp left hooks, Kovalev slowed down, but more than this, he suffered a mental capitulation that all but sealed Ward's impending victory. You talk about Ward not doing enough to take the champion's title, but he came up a weight, fought a bigger man with a huge advantage in power and reach (which if you know anything about boxing you realise is crucially important since it means it's not only easier for the bigger man to land his shots but those shots will do more damage, whilst the reverse is true for the man coming up), was hurt in round one and two, and STILL got up and outboxed his opponent, taking his greatest strengths (power, stalking and trapping his opponents, usually by disrupting or stunning with the jab first and finishing with the right hand, or reverse jab). He did this with lateral movement, upper body/head movement and simple, fundamental parries. And in those later rounds, Kovalev gave up. You can call bullshit all you want, but I've sparred with enough big men to recognise the look in the eyes when they finally accept the fact they ain't going to hit you, you aren't going to let them fight their fight, they are tired and you do seem twice as fast as when the fight started because you've been making them miss and making them pay, and they're tired and used to rolling people over in the early rounds, and they feel like their body and their mind has completely failed them. Andre didn't do anything Kovalev shouldn't have expected. There has been some speculation that Kovalev doesn't give his trainer the time of day (a man who was trained by George Benton ffs, how can you not stand up and take notice?) and the fact that simply moving to the side or circling around, or moving in low, clinching and working inside was enough to derail and defang Kovalev suggests that this might well be true, because there is no doubt that Jackson knew exactly how Ward would fight and I'm sure he wouldn't have kept it a secret from his fighter, especially since it seems that a win for ward represented not just one but two scalps in this fight, one for the (God)father and one for the son.
The point is, despite all his ineffectual ambling in Ward's general direction, Kovalev did very little to support the argument that he controlled this fight. He allowed himself to be manipulated to the point where his frustration became obvious for anyone with eyes to see, and controlling this fight from round 3 onwards, as well as the more varied and clean work, meant that Ward won the fight. He showed he was the superior fighter on the night, and all of the faux aggression in the world can't change that fact. Having said all that I believe Kovalev could well beat Ward in a rematch, IF he makes the necessary adjustments and is willing to box clever instead of looking dumbfounded and reaching for another right hand. Kovalev is good boxer-puncher but his limitations were glaringly obvious tonight. His inability to adapt was exposed against a fighter 17 years Hopkins' junior, and I can't say I'm surprised. However, with a few tweaks (which could even have been made in the fight) Kovalev could have gotten Ward out of there, but he failed to do this. Ward set the pattern, and Kovalev had no answer. I haven't posted here in a whole but it really irks me that so called boxing fans can be so blind to the reality of their own most cherished sport. By all means say you wanted Kovalev to win, say that you enjoyed his performance more despite the fact he fell short, even say that you feel, on a subjective point of view, that his aggression, however ineffective, constitutes a victory on the scorecards, but please, don't cry robbery just because the guy you didn't want to win completely outfoxed and nullified the big bad wolf and ruined your Saturday night execution.
And one final thing. On the question of protecting fighters' records, let's not forget that Kovalev is undoubtedly the more popular fighter of the two, and the fighter more likely to bring in money on PPVs and arena tickets, so where is the notion that anyone would favour Ward coming in? He's the boring fighter, so it doesn't make sense from a commercial perspective to suggest that the judges would favour him in order to make the TV companies and the fans happy (if you want proof of this just listen to the booing of Ward after the fight, and the cheers for Kovalev which only died down when Kovalev effectively went full Putin and accused American boxing of being *gasp* corrupt to the core).
Anyways, please excuse any typos/grammar, posting this on iphone and cannot be arsed to scroll through it all and edit :p
All joking aside, lots of great points in there.
SRR, I appreciate the fervor behind your many and lengthy arguments. I read your opinions... now I will post mine.
(I tried to quote your post, but it was too long).
No, I don't believe the challenger has to "separate the head" of the champion in order to lift his title. But in the eyes of many knowledgeable boxing observers, the challenger does have to clearly win the fight in order for the title to change hands. Which is why when it's a draw, the title stays put. Most ringside observers, alas not the ones that count, saw Kovalev winning the fight. Many said the very least Kovalev deserved was a draw, if not the outright win. Boxing is a matter of appreciation, which is why your lengthy and wordy opinion is just that... an opinion. No better and no worse than anyone else's. Your many insinuations that those who don't agree don't know shit about boxing notwithstanding.
You ask why Kovalev wasn't able to hurt Ward after the 2nd round. Ward, to his credit, adjusted. He used his boxing skills to avoid getting hit flush like he did in the 2nd round. Does any of this mean that Ward dominated the fight after the 2nd round? No. It means exactly what was said... that Kovalev apparently didn't hurt Ward badly after the 2nd round. If we're talking hurt, let's also mention that at NO TIME during the fight did Ward hurt Kovalev. It's worth mentioning, since we're talking about hurt.
You ask whether Kovalev was in control when he was eating all those jabs. Not to be sarcastic or anything... but did you happen to turn away every time that Ward was the one eating jabs? Just asking, since it is painfully obvious from your humongously long post that you only saw Ward's offense, and not Kovalev's. No... Kovalev didn't cut off the ring in the classic way. You probably not only saw it, but also heard RJJ talking about it. So let's deduct points from Kovalev for not doing that. For merely following Ward in a straight line. Because that's obviously part of boxing scoring, right? I'm sorry... but your condescending tone falls on deaf ears when you make comments like that. When did Kovalev ever pin Ward on the ropes and throw 2 or 3 punches and hurt him? Never. Know why? Because that's not part of Kovalev's fight style. He prefers the outside. When Ward lunged forward and grappled with him, Kovalev responded by grappling back, and pushing Ward back against the ropes. But did Ward ever hurt Kovalev in the same situation? Through your rose-colored glasses, I'm sure you saw Kovalev wince in pain whenever Ward wrestled him into the ropes. But to everyone else, that did not happen.
Ward's work after the 2nd round was (cough)..... "clean and consistent"? Now your paper-thin arguments are REALLY starting to fall apart. Call Ward's work anything you want, but DO NOT call it "clean." Grappling, clutching and mauling is hardly "clean" work. You follow that up by laughably claiming that Kovalev's chasing Ward around the ring actually "supports the idea that Ward won." You may have started off ok...... but by now your one-sided fanboyhood is falling apart at the seams. Word of advice: Don't hurt yourself overanalyzing, ok? But it gets "better" later on. First, there's the crying about Ward being smaller and weaker than Kovalev. Excuse me while I bring out the violins. Does any of THIS have anything to do with the scoring? I'm asking, since you're such the eminence about boxing and the rest of us are mere plebes.
I'm gonna have a break in the action here to say the following: I backed up my OPINION with a round-by-round description. You backed up YOUR opinion with a lot of clever hyperbole (chowing down on grey matter, FFS) and insinuations about boxing knowledge or lack thereof. Rather than your 10,000-word diatribe on the matter, why don't you do your own round-by-round assessment and save us some reading.
Anyway, back to your old testament. So Ward got up after Round 2, and "outboxed his opponent", using "lateral movement, upper body/head movement, and simple, fundamental parries." Meanwhile, Kovalev was standing still like a sack of potatoes, without landing a single punch..... and was totally outboxed throughout the rest of the fight, for the world to see. Right. And Hillary Clinton really won the election.
But here's the tremendous doozy from you: "And in those later rounds, Kovalev gave up." Brilliant. What WOULD we do here without your incisive points of view... your accurate insights into the hearts and minds of the fighters. We're lucky to have you. (wink, wink). You are without equal. You managed to look at Kovalev's eyes and recognize that the big man had given up. Wow. That must be why he stopped throwing in the 2nd half of the fight. Damn....
Here's the bottom line, sport. More people than not thought Kovalev won. So proceed to accuse all of them (us) of not knowing shit about boxing, because obviously you're the only one that really knows. But do me a favor. Take those rose-colored glasses off, and watch the fight again. No, of course you can't. You'll see the same things you saw the first time.
1 Kov 10-9
2 Kov 10-8
3 Ward 10-9 (close)
4 Kov 10-9 (close)
5 Ward 10-9 (close)
6 Kov 10-9
7 Ward 10-9
8 Ward 10-9 (close)
9 Ward 10-9
10 Ward 10-9 (close)
11 Kov 10-9 (close)
12 Draw 10-10
114-114 a draw
Very scrappy fight. Kov sucked into Wards fight and cost him the fight. Lots of close rounds. Being the aggressor and forcing the action I can see why people think Kov was unlucky but nowhere near a robbery.
Macklins comment - "i just like the clean work of Ward" :D
Someone asked if Floyd would have done anything different to Ward. I dont think so. He would have gone about it the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I don't mean to be rude but anyone that scored round 9 for Kovalev is blind. That's absurd and calls everything else you said into question. Gowatch round 9 again and come back and admit your bias.
75% of the boxing media thought Kovalev deserved to win.
https://twitter.com/thefightscore/st...99103872172032
Even Roy Jones thought Kovalev won.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I don't mean to be rude but anyone that scored round 9 for Kovalev is blind. That's absurd and calls everything else you said into question. Gowatch round 9 again and come back and admit your bias.
Watched it again just for you. ;)
Kovalev won a close round. I'll go ahead and make the appointment with the optometrist.
Yes and 90% of fans as I've been reading countless comments on articles about the fight.Only here have I seen such a handful of people being defiant and devil's advocate with crazy scores like 8-4 Ward and so on.6-6 was best case scenario for Ward. He was being outlanded in many rounds by that Kovalev jab alone. Ward staged a gutsy and courageous comeback, but it simply was not enough. He did no significant damage to his opponent and was being out thrown and out landed throughout the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom
You really should stop commenting on this fight then. You normally have an even keel about anything that isn't Mexico/PR but in this situation you have lost the plot man. That was an easy easy Ward round.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I don't mean to be rude but anyone that scored round 9 for Kovalev is blind. That's absurd and calls everything else you said into question. Gowatch round 9 again and come back and admit your bias.
Watched it again just for you. ;)
Kovalev won a close round. I'll go ahead and make the appointment with the optometrist.
For the record, i think anything from 7-5 Ward to 7-5 Kovalev is fair. The word robbery has no place being attached to this fight. And is harmful to the sport to suggest it is a robbery because then when actual robberies happen people just say "that's boxing". Save words for when they fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonYou really should stop commenting on this fight then. You normally have an even keel about anything that isn't Mexico/PR but in this situation you have lost the plot man. That was an easy easy Ward round.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I don't mean to be rude but anyone that scored round 9 for Kovalev is blind. That's absurd and calls everything else you said into question. Gowatch round 9 again and come back and admit your bias.
Watched it again just for you. ;)
Kovalev won a close round. I'll go ahead and make the appointment with the optometrist.
Now I'm intrigued about this famous 9th round. I'd watch it again but we'd be back to Square One.
There were some nuances in there that may have swayed you.
Was it Kov's head going through the ropes?
Was it the one and a half bolo punches Ward faked?
Was it the two or three good right hands Ward missed as Kovalev leaned out of harm's way?
The round was close, but you're making it sound like a one-sided beatdown.
We ARE talking about round 9, right?
Trying to be helpful here...... I actually watched it a THIRD time.
I hope you feel flattered.