Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Not sure why you think money is relevant to this? But anyway... yes the closer you get to the average size man, the world over, the more populated the weightclass will be.
That's why you see welterweights-middleweights ranging from 5'3 to 6'3. You'll never see a 5'3 heavyweight or a 6'3 flyweight.
It's physically impossible for Chocolatito to compete at welterweight just as it's impossible for Crawford to compete at heavyweight. Hence, P4P. It doesn't matter how skilled they are, the reality is a relatively "poor" heavyweight (in shape, that knows what he's doing) would literally kill them.
Whether or not you think Crawford is better than so and so is your personal choice. Again, there's no right or wrong, we can't prove it. :)
Well that is fair i was talking to Ron on how i felt the comp and talent pool were better in those division and then you quote some of my stuff and i started talking to you. I not sure if you really had strong opinion on it or not just saying were i kinda stood on the subject. As for the money i feel the division with more cash running through them and are more popular attract more talent but that is just my thoughts on it.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Roman Gonzalez vs Srisaket Sor Rungvisai - full fight Video 2017 WBC
I was watching it live on my phone but I had to throw someone out of the club so I missed it. Didn't bother watching it again but I'm going to watch it later
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.
I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.
Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.
Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.
To be fair his name wasn't even used in the title ;D. I'm all about the lighter divisions being equal if not deeper in skill vs heavier weights. Many factors there and familiarity and mere exposure are one. A guy at 105-135 and that neighborhood will be forced to navigate deeper waters simply on everything from network coverage..fan base..the guy having multiple ring names..to the obvious 'unlimited' to 3 lb range in division weight limits. I could not get the memory of Sorjaturong coming in vs Chiquita Gonzalez out of my head last Saturday. He came from absolute obscurity and only claim to fame was being blasted out by great Finito but went on a solid championship run. Sometimes all a guy needs is an honest opportunity and to be doubted. Sucking a fan favorite into your physical fight also helps. Shit even Finito gets doubted as the 'great' he rightfully merits simply on lack of size :-X
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.
I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.
Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.
Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.
To be fair his name wasn't even used in the title ;D. I'm all about the lighter divisions being equal if not deeper in skill vs heavier weights. Many factors there and familiarity and mere exposure are one. A guy at 105-135 and that neighborhood will be forced to navigate deeper waters simply on everything from network coverage..fan base..the guy having multiple ring names..to the obvious 'unlimited' to 3 lb range in division weight limits. I could not get the memory of Sorjaturong coming in vs Chiquita Gonzalez out of my head last Saturday. He came from absolute obscurity and only claim to fame was being blasted out by great Finito but went on a solid championship run. Sometimes all a guy needs is an honest opportunity and to be doubted. Sucking a fan favorite into your physical fight also helps. Shit even Finito gets doubted as the 'great' he rightfully merits simply on lack of size :-X
The lower weights talent pool meaning the classes under bantam weight are shallow and have less competition. Heavyweight has problems as well with it but i fell the talent level is pretty close to what lower weights have. The lower guys are more fluid because they have a lot less weight to carry around and do not have fear power as much. Heavyweight just plain hard because all your talent can be thrown away by a guy who is 230 plus hitting you in face and ending you. My huge thing was after last night and few other fights Choco has had are i do not see this guy being best boxer in world with Ward and Crawford existing in boxing. The whole thing started with Ron saying how great any of those guys look at there forth division which i think is not on same level as guys have to move up in division with much bigger talent pool. Also the fact that 10 pounds makes that many division fucking nuts wish they cut down on them.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Ward arguably lost to Kovalev, most had Gonzalez winning his last fight. I agree we could lose 108 & 105 but the same could be said of 154. "do not have fear power as much" tell that to the guys fighting Inoue. You only have to look at 115 to see how competitive and stacked the division is.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Ward arguably lost to Kovalev, most had Gonzalez winning his last fight. I agree we could lose 108 & 105 but the same could be said of 154. "do not have fear power as much" tell that to the guys fighting Inoue. You only have to look at 115 to see how competitive and stacked the division is.
Yea but to be fair to Ward he did not have a life and death fight with a unknown who was fighting guys in there debut fights. Not to mention Kovalev was also undefeated fighter with a lot of title defenses. Oh yea 115 the super stacked division with talent pool of 670 fighters in it. Just because they are competitive with each other does not change the fact that there talent pool compared to the other divisions north of them is worse. I am talking about the power that hw have to be in fear of because getting hit by 230 guy can break the best of chins 115 you do not have worry as much as hw. I do not know why you would question that when i was comparing the lower division with hw with speed and power.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Don't have to fear power? This is a nonsense argument. The very fight this thread was made about is between two geezers that had 80+% KO ratios. The whole reason weightclasses exist is to make FAIR fights between men generally the same size.
You might as well argue that all fights under heavyweight are pointless as no-one, no matter how talented, would beat a good heavyweight.
It also highlights what a complete and utter nonsense P4P is. Chocolatito loses a close, disputed decision, therefore is dropped from the no.1 spot. Ward wins a close, disputed decision yet is elevated in the rankings.
What top "P4P," great fighter has Crawford beat? None! His best wins are Beltran, Postol and Gamboa. Without even ripping apart their records, none are future hall of famers, they're solid world-class fighters between 135-140. That's it.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Don't have to fear power? This is a nonsense argument. The very fight this thread was made about is between two geezers that had 80+% KO ratios. The whole reason weightclasses exist is to make FAIR fights between men generally the same size.
You might as well argue that all fights under heavyweight are pointless as no-one, no matter how talented, would beat a good heavyweight.
It also highlights what a complete and utter nonsense P4P is. Chocolatito loses a close, disputed decision, therefore is dropped from the no.1 spot. Ward wins a close, disputed decision yet is elevated in the rankings.
What top "P4P," great fighter has Crawford beat? None! His best wins are Beltran, Postol and Gamboa. Without even ripping apart their records, none are future hall of famers, they're solid world-class fighters between 135-140. That's it.
I said that the way lower weight classes compared to the heavy weights do not have to worry about power as much on flip side the heavyweights do not have the speed they do. I was talking just about those division because the talent pool of people that size is not as common as the 135-160 i was comparing the divisions. I am comparing talent and fighter talent pool size for division your the one making the thread about pound for pound best.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
I am not even really talking about who pound for pound best is anymore i am talking about which division are weaker in there pool of talent. We have no idea who is going to go to hall of fame Choco and as far as Crawford oppents he has beat there still not done with there career yet there are a lot of weaker guys who made the hall so i do not see your point there. Fenster saying who cares about pound for pound when this is your thread talking about a fighter being the pound for pound best.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Jesus fucking christ!!! ;D
Just forget it mate. Yeah the little fellas are not as good as the little-big fellas who are better than the big-big fellas. Crawford is the bestest in the whole world. Done.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Well thank Mr140 for keeping your thread alive fenster. ;D
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.
There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.
There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.
It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.
I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.
I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.
I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.
Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.
Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.
To be fair his name wasn't even used in the title ;D. I'm all about the lighter divisions being equal if not deeper in skill vs heavier weights. Many factors there and familiarity and mere exposure are one. A guy at 105-135 and that neighborhood will be forced to navigate deeper waters simply on everything from network coverage..fan base..the guy having multiple ring names..to the obvious 'unlimited' to 3 lb range in division weight limits. I could not get the memory of Sorjaturong coming in vs Chiquita Gonzalez out of my head last Saturday. He came from absolute obscurity and only claim to fame was being blasted out by great Finito but went on a solid championship run. Sometimes all a guy needs is an honest opportunity and to be doubted. Sucking a fan favorite into your physical fight also helps. Shit even Finito gets doubted as the 'great' he rightfully merits simply on lack of size :-X
The lower weights talent pool meaning the classes under bantam weight are shallow and have less competition. Heavyweight has problems as well with it but i fell the talent level is pretty close to what lower weights have. The lower guys are more fluid because they have a lot less weight to carry around and do not have fear power as much. Heavyweight just plain hard because all your talent can be thrown away by a guy who is 230 plus hitting you in face and ending you. My huge thing was after last night and few other fights Choco has had are i do not see this guy being best boxer in world with Ward and Crawford existing in boxing. The whole thing started with Ron saying how great any of those guys look at there forth division which i think is not on same level as guys have to move up in division with much bigger talent pool. Also the fact that 10 pounds makes that many division fucking nuts wish they cut down on them.
I honestly don't think they are so shallow as simply not exposed or well known. Half the names we can't pronounce, they have little main stream media push and save for the hardcore fans they rarely are mentioned. I'm as guilty as the next guy. Guys like Gonzalez are a blessing as they put a spotlight on "the little guys" but I do agree, I personally never regarded him as the absolute #1 fighter in the world as he repeatedly was pushed. Crawford looks and displays far more diversity and adaptation for me.
I can never put my head around the idea that smaller divisions are less capable of carrying real power in the same league as heavies or below. Simply as they are hitting and being hit by fighters at same weight and not trying to knock over a 200 lb guy. The speed and delivery is obviously faster and any man vs an equal can punch with authority. Also a guy 115 isn't afforded the luxury of "unlimited" lbs or rehydrating to an additional 12-20 plus pounds like we see in more 'popular' divisions. Nearly every fighter comes in with some added weight sure but that much is near a fifth of their body weight.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
I don't really understand where @Mr140 is coming from either. You can see talent and skill when you watch a fighter no matter what weight they are. Just because there might be more fighters in a certain division does not mean they will necessarily be more skilled than those in others. Just because you don't know a fighter does not mean he is unskilled. If you take your heavyweight top 10 and match it against the 115 top 10 it is clear to see that 115 is extremely deep with talent, while the heavies struggle to barely make 10. A fighter should be ranked on his accomplishments and against the opposition he faced.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
I don't really understand where @
Mr140 is coming from either. You can see talent and skill when you watch a fighter no matter what weight they are. Just because there might be more fighters in a certain division does not mean they will necessarily be more skilled than those in others. Just because you don't know a fighter does not mean he is unskilled. If you take your heavyweight top 10 and match it against the 115 top 10 it is clear to see that 115 is extremely deep with talent, while the heavies struggle to barely make 10. A fighter should be ranked on his accomplishments and against the opposition he faced.
Ok i will put it to you this way i could give a fuck about any fighter who is under 118. I think they are shallow talented pool of fighters and have no interest in it exception do come up. Heavyweight talent pool is not that great but at least they are kings of the sport the people to beat i grew up watching heavies. So there were i am coming from i am done now this is most time i have spent talking about weight class that does not matter.
Re: "P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)
Mr 140 is not alone in his disdain for the lower classes. Many boxing fans feel the same way (I don't). For some reason, the adage "bigger is better" seems to extend to boxing. But for me, I've seen way too many heavyweights who substitute raw power for skill and/or training, in the hopes one big shot can end their fights. I've seen way too many blubbery, lumbering heavyweights plod their way around. People like them, much in the same way Japanese love their sumos. Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that stuff, I guess. For my money, give me an evenly matched pair of bantamweights, lightweights, or whatever. Plenty of stars have come out of those divisions. It's also cultural and national, I think. Most little guys are either Asian or Hispanic. So naturally U.S. fans don't care as much. There's the rare exception, such as Chocolatito, but again it's rare. Meanwhile, we've got uncoordinated, lazy oafs like Tyson Fury getting all the attention.
