Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not want to continue to pick apart Holyfield heavyweight career as champion but when he beat an "old" and "whiny" Holmes, Larry said he was strong but not that skilled compared to the fighters he fought when he was at his peak.
This implied that he would have beaten Evander as was not as good as some of the boxers he faced when he was champion. Holyfield relied on his fitness, activity and conditioning to beat his opponents but he could be out boxed by Bowe, Moorer and Lewis. Usyk would have that chance at heavyweight less so at cruiserweight.
Incidentally @
Spicoli, Mercer was dumb for falling into the traps that Holmes set him when he lost to him. Also Mercer beat Morrison should not mean that much of a victory when Tommy was going to get knocked out in a round by Bent. :)
I mean it's Larry Holmes, what do we expect him to say when discussing himself from the holy mount of Sir Larry ;D. Absolutely no idea about hypotheticals but a former champ can have plenty of opinion on competition over the decades. But I struggle to see a tip top Holyfield being in awe or not measuring up as "good" as a Norton, Witherspoon or Shavers. Let alone a Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb or David Bey :-X. No secret Holyfield was no friend of a steady mobile jab. Bowe sat in, swapped and even Lewis sat in and exchanged when he had to especially in rematch where their jabs were fairly even up. No one, save for Lewis I tbh, was really boxing top Holyfield's ears without getting sucked into exchanges, taking a wobble or dropped in order to maintain ring real estate. That's what happens when the very best face one another, multiple times.
Wouldn't say Mercer was dumb. Outfoxed, outboxed and out experienced vs Holmes, absolutely. His biggest mistake along with so many fans pre Holmes was believing his own headlines and savagery fresh off beating Morrison literally senseless and damn near fatal. It was assumed by mass majority all he had to do was attack and overwhelm an aged 'old whiny' Holmes and Holmes would get ground down and cave. Ironically Mercers best moment was very early on when he was jabbing with Holmes and hurt him badly. Mercer always had a killer short power jab when it was on and his head was in it. The Morrison fight is a good example of Ray being far more than just a iron chinned tank. The man could box and he though it was 4,5 rounds he was setting traps for young all offence Morrison from the very start. You could see it, and Ray knew it. To this day people saw that fight and said it was Morrison outboxing Mercer...I never saw that. Exact opposite really. You say the win didn't mean much buuut it did mean enough to win him a championship. Which seems to be the most important factor in ranking ATG heavy's for some :-X. It also would help propel Mercer, regardless of Holmes, into two superb fights/wars with both Lewis and Holyfield. Back to back. And sure Morrison got iced by Bentt a couple years later...but that didn't stop Lewis from facing such a 'used up' fighter another two years later. The irony is that it was after Lewis was splattered by McCall and during his own 'rebuild'. That's the thing about 'what ifs' and a magnifying glass put on records. It's an across the board thing fans do. But at some points it becomes tearing into the very same fighters we rank as the very best or ATG. Round and round it goes.
and btw Holyfield beat Mercer cleaner and wider than Lewis ;D:)
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Louis
Ali
Johnson
Dempsey
Foreman
Liston
Lewis
Usyk (hopefully not me showing recency bias there)
Frazier
Marciano
Honourable mentions to Tyson, Jeffries, Holmes too
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark TKO
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
do lennox next, should have been dq'd against mike acey & the oliver rematch should have really been a no contest, two knockout losses when he was at or near his prime
He was very slack with Rahman. In hindsight it's baffling that he was so ill prepared for that fight and pissing about filming oceans 11 the week before.
The Mccall knock out was lucky
no excuses once you're in that ring
the only thing lucky was lennox when the ref saved him. his career could have been severely altered had it continued
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not want to continue to pick apart Holyfield heavyweight career as champion but when he beat an "old" and "whiny" Holmes, Larry said he was strong but not that skilled compared to the fighters he fought when he was at his peak.
This implied that he would have beaten Evander as was not as good as some of the boxers he faced when he was champion. Holyfield relied on his fitness, activity and conditioning to beat his opponents but he could be out boxed by Bowe, Moorer and Lewis. Usyk would have that chance at heavyweight less so at cruiserweight.
Incidentally @
Spicoli, Mercer was dumb for falling into the traps that Holmes set him when he lost to him. Also Mercer beat Morrison should not mean that much of a victory when Tommy was going to get knocked out in a round by Bent. :)
I mean it's Larry Holmes, what do we expect him to say when discussing himself from the holy mount of Sir Larry ;D. Absolutely no idea about hypotheticals but a former champ can have plenty of opinion on competition over the decades. But I struggle to see a tip top Holyfield being in awe or not measuring up as "good" as a Norton, Witherspoon or Shavers. Let alone a Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb or David Bey :-X. No secret Holyfield was no friend of a steady mobile jab. Bowe sat in, swapped and even Lewis sat in and exchanged when he had to especially in rematch where their jabs were fairly even up. No one, save for Lewis I tbh, was really boxing top Holyfield's ears without getting sucked into exchanges, taking a wobble or dropped in order to maintain ring real estate. That's what happens when the very best face one another, multiple times.
Conversely, prime Larry Holmes would not struggle with poor man’s Frazier in Bert Cooper or an old Foreman.
Larry would beat an overweight Buster but arguably would not lose to Bowe or Moorer.
Lennox Lewis which is a “pick em”.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark TKO
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
do lennox next, should have been dq'd against mike acey & the oliver rematch should have really been a no contest, two knockout losses when he was at or near his prime
He was very slack with Rahman. In hindsight it's baffling that he was so ill prepared for that fight and pissing about filming oceans 11 the week before.
The Mccall knock out was lucky
no excuses once you're in that ring
the only thing lucky was lennox when the ref saved him. his career could have been severely altered had it continued
disagree he was a champion on his feet. Give him the chance
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good thread. :)
Well... emboldened by Primo's list with Carnera at #1 (proving there are no wrong choices here) ;D ... I hereby submit my own list (complete with inaccuracies and biases) ;D
1. Ali (slam dunk choice)
2. Louis (ditto)
3. Lewis (In his peak as dominant as any fighter out there. Avenged both of his knockout losses.)
4. Foreman (A beast. Beat many fighters by fear alone. Knocked out some impressive opponents. Came back years later to regain the title.)
5. Wlad (He could be boring as hell. But like Foreman, beat many fighters by fear alone. After Louis, the longest reign as defending champion.)
6. Frazier (Only lost to the very best: Ali and Foreman. But he beat Ali in The Fight of the Century in 1971.)
7. Marciano (Didn't see him on any lists, but deserves a spot. Something to be said for retiring undefeated.)
8. Usyk (Tough to ignore. He's beaten the best the division has to offer, which admittedly isn't a golden era of heavyweight boxing.)
9. Tyson (Another beast. Brought many fans to boxing with his style. At his peak could arguably beat anybody.)
10. Holmes (YEP... I'm biased. Never liked this guy cause he talks way too much. First class whiner. Was lucky to come in as Ali was wasting away as a fighter. He's lucky I put him in at #10.)
I've gone back over this list, and frankly wouldn't change it much. I probably should've made space for someone as important in his time as Jack Johnson. But I suffer from the same modern-day bias most of us do. ;D
But I'll revisit it from the standpoint of other considerations.
Ali, like I said is a slam dunk choice. Sure, he was a showman and referred to himself as "The Greatest." But he invariable backed it up, beating the best of the best throughout a long period of time.
Louis was from a previous time, when fighters didn't whine, or claim to be the best ever. He let others do the talking for him.
Lewis was mild-mannered to a fault. But at his peak, he was dominant. PLUS... he avenged his two knockout losses big time (with stoppages). His knockout of Rahman was epic.
Foreman just went about his business. A wrecking ball who finally got derailed by Ali. But he came back years later and reclaimed the HW title. He was also mild-mannered and didn't talk himself up.
Wlad just went about his business as well. He never talked about himself as being the greatest.
Frazier was an overachiever for his size... and just went about his business as well. He beat Ali in the Fight of the Century, thus earning his way onto the list.
Marciano was another old-schooler. Retired undefeated, which is quite the feat.
Usyk is not a talker either. He lets the likes of Tyson Fury do all the blabbing. Then he just beats him (twice).
Mike Tyson was a man of few words. He just intimidated and beat the hell out of opponents.
Which brings me to Larry Holmes.
First he whines because people love Ali more than him. Then he whines because he's a greedy, bitter little bastard. Then he whines because people love Gerry Cooney more 'cause he's white. Then he whines because he's just a bitchy little whiner.
Nowadays he still pushes the narrative of him being greater than "X" and greater than "Y."
A TOTALLY unlikable character, who I always rooted against.
At 38 years old... old back in the 1950's, but perfectly acceptable for HW's in modern times... he got CRUSHED by Mike Tyson (one of my fav fights ever). Four years later, he still had enough gas in the tank and enough skills to defeat an undefeated Ray Mercer. Thus (at least in my mind) proving that he wasn't over-the-hill at all when he fought Tyson.
:thinking2: Hmm... in fact... about the only change I would make to my top ten is putting Jack Johnson in Larry's place. :D :cool:
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Forget Holmes personality. Larry record stands up to scrutiny against any of the names you have put on the list and he is definitely higher than Usyk.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I do not want to continue to pick apart Holyfield heavyweight career as champion but when he beat an "old" and "whiny" Holmes, Larry said he was strong but not that skilled compared to the fighters he fought when he was at his peak.
This implied that he would have beaten Evander as was not as good as some of the boxers he faced when he was champion. Holyfield relied on his fitness, activity and conditioning to beat his opponents but he could be out boxed by Bowe, Moorer and Lewis. Usyk would have that chance at heavyweight less so at cruiserweight.
Incidentally @
Spicoli, Mercer was dumb for falling into the traps that Holmes set him when he lost to him. Also Mercer beat Morrison should not mean that much of a victory when Tommy was going to get knocked out in a round by Bent. :)
I mean it's Larry Holmes, what do we expect him to say when discussing himself from the holy mount of Sir Larry ;D. Absolutely no idea about hypotheticals but a former champ can have plenty of opinion on competition over the decades. But I struggle to see a tip top Holyfield being in awe or not measuring up as "good" as a Norton, Witherspoon or Shavers. Let alone a Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb or David Bey :-X. No secret Holyfield was no friend of a steady mobile jab. Bowe sat in, swapped and even Lewis sat in and exchanged when he had to especially in rematch where their jabs were fairly even up. No one, save for Lewis I tbh, was really boxing top Holyfield's ears without getting sucked into exchanges, taking a wobble or dropped in order to maintain ring real estate. That's what happens when the very best face one another, multiple times.
Conversely, prime Larry Holmes would not struggle with poor man’s Frazier in Bert Cooper or an old Foreman.
Larry would beat an overweight Buster but arguably would not lose to Bowe or Moorer.
Lennox Lewis which is a “pick em”.
There was no struggle. There was 1-2 punch sandwiched between an arse whipping. Show me a heavy who has never come back from being hurt and I'll show you one who really has yet to learn much. I actually think top Bowe and Lewis could give any version of Holmes a helluva night. More so Bowe believe it or not, who looked to have slightly faster hands than Lennox, more fluid in combination imo, and had more than a few similarities than say a Williams or Witherspoon. The long rapid jab and Holmes knack for taking follow up right hands in some rough spots. Unlike Williams Bowe in top form was a very solid inside fighter in combination punching. Would have been a great style mash up. It's odd thinking about it now...Bowe always fancied himself an Ali impersonator and would play that up. But in style I would always see more Holmes if anything. As far as off the jab and longer shots and whips to the body. Now mentally and the times Holmes had to get off the deck and come back from being rattled...his ability to dig deep late round, big edge goes to Holmes.
And being honest. 'old' Foreman was in some ways better than the first version. That mental composure and grown man attitude would have done miracles for young surly aloof George. If only we saw that blend, but time does that to us all.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Forget Holmes personality. Larry record stands up to scrutiny against any of the names you have put on the list and he is definitely higher than Usyk.
Ok.
Let's forget Holmes lousy personality, whining, and self-chest-thumping.
Fact is, the best win on his resume was likely the highly touted Gerry Cooney, which Holmes turned into a black-white thing. Then he proceeded to lose TWICE to a Michael Spinks just coming up from light heavyweight. Then he got slaughtered by Mike Tyson.
I'll go one further than Spicoli. I'll say that both Bowe and Lewis in their prime make mincemeat out of Holmes. Holmes had a good jab. The rest of his arsenal was so-so. Bowe and Lewis at their best had the whole package. Movement, right AND left hands. Boxing and power.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
I agree Larry Holmes would have had tough fights against Lennox Lewis and prime Bowe but had the heart to win and pull through. Holmes would certainly not get knocked out by McCall and Rahman. Larry had an incredible chin.
Larry did fight better opponents than Cooney. Winning the title against Norton was the most impressive. He beat young versions of future champs Berbick, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, and got up from tough fights against Shavers and Snipes.
Holmes also suffered from coming after Ali and beating the old Muhammad. He did not help himself with his attitude and personality but I liked him for speaking his truth. It was Don King and Cooney promoters that really raised the race card to sell their fight.
Holmes really beat Spinks especially the second time.
Holmes mentality was to win and he went against King, governing bodies and Ali legacy and still achieved everything he did.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I agree Larry Holmes would have had tough fights against Lennox Lewis and prime Bowe but had the heart to win and pull through. Holmes would certainly not get knocked out by McCall and Rahman. Larry had an incredible chin.
Larry did fight better opponents than Cooney. Winning the title against Norton was the most impressive. He beat young versions of future champs Berbick, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, and got up from tough fights against Shavers and Snipes.
Holmes also suffered from coming after Ali and beating the old Muhammad. He did not help himself with his attitude and personality but I liked him for speaking his truth. It was Don King and Cooney promoters that really raised the race card to sell their fight.
Holmes really beat Spinks especially the second time.
Holmes mentality was to win and he went against King, governing bodies and Ali legacy and still achieved everything he did.
Hard to argue with some of your points, as much as I dislike the guy. The win against Norton WAS impressive... and on top of that was an instant classic. Down to the wire. Another good point is his chin. He got tagged good on more than one occasion, and hung in there. About Rahman not knocking him out, I kind of agree. But I don't hold that against Lewis. Anyone can have a bad day, and Lennox certainly had one against Rahman the first time around. He avenged it, though. McCall, IMO... is another story. I think there would've been a fair chance of Oliver knocking Holmes out. He was that powerful.
You mention Shavers and Snipes. Shavers was totally shopworn when he fought Holmes. But to his credit, Holmes did survive some heavy punches. Snipes? I never rated him much. A prime Bowe or a Lewis would've swept the floor with Renaldo Snipes.
Holmes certainly earned his way to these lists. It's just that I can always find 10 other heavyweights who I personally rate higher than him. I think he rode his jab hard, because the rest of his arsenal was average.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
kenny norton gets so underrated because of the george & earnie losses
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
kenny norton gets so underrated because of the george & earnie losses
True, and arguably went 2-1 over Ali. Even Ali told us that. Meanwhile Shavers suffers 3 ko losses within the next 12+ months. Just the strange way boxing moves.
Re: Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time
could argue three zip for kenny. he gets those decisions & the nod over larry & he's looked at in a whole different light
