Well I'm off to bed. We'll play more tomorrow. bye kiddos
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Well I'm off to bed. We'll play more tomorrow. bye kiddos
Whether or not Jordan could have won without Pippen is only speculation because he had Pippen during his prime though I would venture to say that any solid forward would have done the job for MJ.
As for Kareem, I wouldn't put him at the top of the center list, I would have Wilt at the top, Kareem 2nd and then Bill Russel. I think MJ is the greatest of all time followed by Wilt and then Kareem.
Bill Russel - that's who I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondRoundKO
I'm pretty sure Kareem got the better of Wilt whenever they played against each other but thats your opinion. And Bill Russell without a doubt is the greatest winner to ever play the game of basketball, he knew how to win better then anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondRoundKO
the above reads like communist propoganda????????????????????? the question should be what Kobe has done without Shaq.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
And they both didn't carry each other.
Since Shaq moved to the eastern conference, the east has won both all star games, and shaq has been to the conference finals.
Since Shaq left the lakers, the lakers failed to make the playoffs the first year, and only made it the second year because T-Mac was injured. And the lakers lost in the first round after having a 3-1 lead. a testimony to mediocrity and incompetence.
And for those 3 rings that Shaq got, make no mistake about it, Shaq had to play 4 years with the Lakers before they came.
With Orlando Shaq played 2 yrs and got the the finals, then he went to LA to restart. If he had stayed with Orlando they would have beaten the bulls and win, because that year the bulls swept them, penny and a bunch of others were injured.
Now Shaq is with Miami, he went to the conference finals both years, and this being the second time, he might return to the NBA finals.
Kobe is all flash and no substance.
Lebron by himself successfully took his team to the NBA playoffs and won a playoff series. Something that both Kobe and T Mac failed to do on their own. And in addition Lebron has an opportunity to go to the conference finals by beating the Detroit pistons. something both kobe and t mac failed to do.
The 3 players of pure substance in the league are Shaq, Lebron and Duncan. The others are no where in their league in terms of leadership and accomplishments, and this include TMAC Kobe, IVERSON, Nowitzki etc.
With Shaq, Lebron and Duncan you have a team that will most likely always reach the conference finals and NBA finals. With Tmac,Kobe and Iverson you only have a team that would give you good highlights.
CC. Everyone knows Shaq was the Batman of that team and Kobe was Robin.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMix27
Yea, but do you agree that they both needed each other to win? I think they were both important to each other in winning the 3 Championships.
well...Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMix27
8-time NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Has started in each of his appearances
8 consecutive appearances. (No All-Star game in 1999 due to league-wide lock-out)
NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2002
NBA Scoring Champion: 2006 (35.4)
8-time All-NBA:
First Team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006
Second Team: 2000, 2001
Third Team: 1999, 2005
6-time All-NBA Defensive:
First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2006
Second Team: 2001, 2002
2-time NBA regular-season leader, points: 2003 (2,461), 2006 (2,832)
2-time NBA regular-season leader, field goals made: 2003 (868), 2006 (978)
NBA regular-season leader, field goals attempted: 2006 (2,173)
NBA regular-season leader, free throws made: 2006 (696)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team: 1997
NBA All-Star Slam Dunk Champion: 1997
2nd highest single-game point total in NBA history: 81, set on January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors. (The record is 100 points set by Wilt Chamberlain on March 2, 1962.)
7th highest single-season point total in NBA history: 2,832, 2005-06 (Top 6 held by Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan)
9th highest single-season scoring average in NBA history: 35.4, 2005-06 (Top 8 held by Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Michael Jordan, and Rick Barry)
Career triple-doubles (as of 2006): 14 [20]
Career statistics (as of 2006): 23.9 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, 0.61 bpg, 1.50 spg, .451 FG%, .336 3FG%, .834 FT% [21]
Career playoff statistics (as of 2006): 22.9 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.5 apg, 0.73 bpg, 1.34 spg, .438 FG%, .329 3FG%, .791 FT% [22]
NBA milestones
Youngest player in NBA history to reach:
10,000 points (24 years, 193 days), set March 5, 2003 vs. the Indiana Pacers.
14,000 points (26 years, 240 days), set April 20, 2005 vs. the Portland Trail Blazers.
15,000 points (27 years, 136 days), set January 6, 2006 vs. the Philadelphia 76ers.
16,000 points (27 years, 192 days), set March 3, 2006 vs. the Golden State Warriors.
Youngest player to start an NBA game (18 years, 158 days), making his first start for the Los Angeles Lakers on January 28, 1997.
Youngest player to start an NBA All-Star Game (19 years, 175 days), making his debut at the 48th annual All-Star Game at Madison Square Garden on February 8, 1998.
Youngest NBA All-Star Slam Dunk champion (18 years, 175 days), after winning the contest at the 1997 NBA All-Star Weekend.
Became the first player ever to outscore the opposing team through three quarters since the advent of the 24-second shot clock after scoring 62 points in three quarters of play on December 20, 2005 vs. the Dallas Mavericks.
NBA records (8)
Most three-point field goals made, one game: 12 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; first player to reach this plateau; tied with Donyell Marshall). [23]
Most three-point field goals made, one half: 8 (March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards; tied with 5 players). [24]
Most consecutive three-point field goals made, one game: 9 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; first player to reach this plateau; tied with Latrell Sprewell and Ben Gordon). [25]
Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; tied with 5 players). [26] [27]
Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; tied with 6 players). [28] [29]
Most All-Star Game three-point field goals made, all-time: 11 (1997–present; tied with Tracy McGrady, Ray Allen, and Jason Kidd). [30]
Holds shot-clock era records for:
Greatest percentage of own team's point total (66.4% of the Lakers' 122 points)
Greatest percentage of both teams' combined point total (35.8% of the Lakers' and Raptors' 226 points)
(both set on January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors).
Lakers franchise records (30)
Points
Season: 2,832 (2005-06; 7th highest NBA single season scoring output of all-time)
Game: 81 (January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors) [31]
Half: 55 (2nd half, January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors). [32]
Quarter: 30 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks) [33]
Overtime, playoffs: 12 (May 4, 2006 vs. Phoenix Suns) [34]
Scoring average, month: 43.4 (January 2006)
Games scoring 40 points or more, season: 27 (2005-06) [35]
Consecutive games of 40 points or more: 9 (February 6–February 23, 2003) [36]
Consecutive games of 20 points or more, season: 62 (December 9, 2005–April 19, 2006)
Field goals made
Half: 18 (2nd half, January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors). [37]
Quarter: 11 (February 2, 1999 vs. Seattle SuperSonics). [38]
Field goals attempted
Half: 28 (tied with Elgin Baylor; 2nd half, January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors). [39]
Free throws made
Game: 23 (twice, most recently on January 31, 2006 vs. New York Knicks). [40]
Half: 16 (January 30, 2001 vs. Cleveland Cavaliers) [41]
Quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks) [42]
Quarter, playoffs: 11 (tied with 3 players; May 8, 1997 vs. Utah Jazz). [43]
Consecutive: 62 (January 11–22, 2006). [44]
Free throws attempted
Quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks). [45]
Three-point field goals made
All-time: 799 (1996–present) [46]
Game: 12 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics). [47]
Half: 8 (1st half, March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards). [48]
Quarter: 6 (2nd quarter, January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics). [49]
Without a miss, game: 7 (January 6, 2006 vs. Philadelphia 76ers). [50]
Consecutive: 9 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics). [51]
Three-point field goals attempted
All-time: 2,379 (1996–present) [52]
All-time, playoffs: 410 (1996–present) [53]
Season: 518 (2005-06) [54]
Game: 18 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics). [55]
Steals
Half: 6 (tied with 3 players; February 13, 2006 vs. Utah Jazz). [56]
Quarter, playoffs: 3 (tied with 6 players; May 17, 1999 vs. San Antonio Spurs). [57]
Personal records
Second-most points scored in a regular season game in NBA history: 81 (January 22, 2006).
One of only two players in NBA history to score 80 points in a single game (the other is Wilt Chamberlain).
One of only two players in NBA history to score 35-plus points per game for 13 consecutive games (the other is Wilt Chamberlain).
One of only three players in NBA history to score 40-plus points per game for 9 consecutive games (the others are Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan).
One of only three players in NBA history to score 45-plus points per game for 4 consecutive games (the others are Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain), and the first to accomplish it since Chamberlain, who did it in November of 1964.
One of only three players in NBA history to average 40-plus points per game for an entire month at least once (the others are Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor)
One of only two players in NBA history to average 40-plus points per game for an entire month on three separate occasions (40.6 ppg in February 2003, 43.4 ppg in January 2006 , 40.1 in April 2006) (the other is Wilt Chamberlain).
Only player in NBA history with at least 2,800 points and 180 three-point field goals made in one season.
Other awards and achievements
1996 Naismith High School Player of the Year [1]
1996 Gatorade Circle of Champions High School Player of the Year [1]
1996 McDonald's High School All-American [1]
1996 USA Today All-USA First Team [1]
1995 Adidas ABCD Camp Senior MVP [1]
Named to the USA Today All-Time All-USA First Team in 2003. [1]
USA Today and Parade Magazine's 1996 National High School Player of the Year with a seasonal average of 30.8 points, 12.0 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 4.0 steals and 3.9 blocks per game. [2]
Led Lower Merion High School to a 31-3 record, including 27 straight wins, and the PIAA Class AAAA state title as a senior (1996).[2]
The all-time leading scorer in Southeastern Pennsylvania school history with 2,883 points.
Many things ;)
Since Shaq moved to the eastern conference, the east has won both all star games, and shaq has been to the conference finals.
Do you think the Eastern Conference is tougher then the Western Conference ??? I think the West is a much harder conference. If Kobe was on an Eastern Conference team he probably would make the Finals ;)
I think that the Eastern Conference is an easier conference then the West, would you agree?
A testimony to lack of experience and depth of the team ;)Quote:
Since Shaq left the lakers, the lakers failed to make the playoffs the first year, and only made it the second year because T-Mac was injured. And the lakers lost in the first round after having a 3-1 lead. a testimony to mediocrity and incompetence.
Very true, so I guess the real pivitol piece was Phil Jackson.Quote:
And for those 3 rings that Shaq got, make no mistake about it, Shaq had to play 4 years with the Lakers before they came.
He only played 2 years in Orlando ???Quote:
With Orlando Shaq played 2 yrs and got the the finals, then he went to LA to restart. If he had stayed with Orlando they would have beaten the bulls and win, because that year the bulls swept them, penny and a bunch of others were injured.
Like I said it's the Eastern Conference which is a weaker division in my opinion.Quote:
Now Shaq is with Miami, he went to the conference finals both years, and this being the second time, he might return to the NBA finals.
I don't think that.Quote:
Kobe is all flash and no substance.
The Lakers beat the Pistons as much times as the Caveliers did in the season(not including post season) and thats once. The Lakers also beat San Antonio in San Antonio ;)Quote:
Lebron by himself successfully took his team to the NBA playoffs and won a playoff series. Something that both Kobe and T Mac failed to do on their own. And in addition Lebron has an opportunity to go to the conference finals by beating the Detroit pistons. something both kobe and t mac failed to do.
And LeBron does all these outbursts and leads in the Eastern Conference, against Western Conference top 4 teams he struggles ;)
I DO have to give Lebron mad props for beating Detroit 3 games in a row, I thought the Cavs would get swept.
I disagree very much with that. Shaq and Duncan are pure substance I will say, but LeBron hasnt even reached that level yet. Don't rush him.Quote:
The 3 players of pure substance in the league are Shaq, Lebron and Duncan. The others are no where in their league in terms of leadership and accomplishments, and this include TMAC Kobe, IVERSON, Nowitzki etc.
I really really really disagree with that. Iverson DID get to the NBA Finals once and they lost that position this year to the Bulls. And I think that T-Mac will do very well when he is healthy. And look at T-Mac on the Eastern Conference he had those tremendous scoring performances but he got to the West which is the more difficult conference, but him and Yao are a very good duo. When they are both healthy its good. And the way Yao was playing with T-Mac despite losing efforts if he plays that way and him and T-Mac is on the floor.Quote:
With Shaq, Lebron and Duncan you have a team that will most likely always reach the conference finals and NBA finals. With Tmac,Kobe and Iverson you only have a team that would give you good highlights.
I say if both T-Mac and Yao are healthy I expect them to finish as the 4th seed in the West.
The next year will be a better year for the Lakers I expect them to get the 5th seed in the West and advance to the 2nd round but I don't know the further.
LeBron's team depending on who they get will probably be a Top 5 in the East next year.
and accomplishing all the above individual feats he has NEVER won an NBA playoff series. And next year with Tmac healthy and Ron artest playing for a full season in sacramento, the lakers will not make the NBA playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
The moment Kobe took leadership of the lakers, the team started going down hill. In the 2002-2003 season when Shaq was injured and Kobe took over the leadership, the Lakers lost to the Spurs. Tbe next year when the team had Payton, Malone and Shaq, with Kobe being the leading scorer taking all the shots They lost. They almost got swept by the Pistons. I can assure you, that if Kobe was injured and malone wasn't, the Lakers would have performed waaaaaaaay better.
The following year without Shaq and Payton and Malone. The lakers failed to make the playoffs. (remember Dwayne Wade, Butler and Odom won an NBA playoffs series together with Miami). Kobe still hasn't accomplished this feat.
This year the lakers got to the playoffs thanks to injuries of yao and t mac, and they lost after leading 3-1.
There's only 3 players of substance in the league. Shaq, Duncan and Lebron.
As for coaches, there is only one coach of substance. Avery Johnson.
Phil Jackson did not make the Lakers win those championships. Shaq did. Shaq was in his prime under Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson cannot coach. With the Bulls, Jordan ran that team. When Jordan left Phil won no championships. This is when they foolishly thought Kukoc would be their next leader. Luckily Pippen had to carry that team on his back to give them respectability. It was only after Jordan returned then Phil won championships.
Then seeing the next thing that was hot "Shaq". He jumped to LA. Fact is, if you put Shaq with Grant Hill, or Jason Kidd or Scottie Pippen or Toney Parker with Greg Popovich, Lenny Wilkens as Coach. He still wins 3 championships in LA.
Phil Jackson can't coach. Phil Jackson was never a pivotal piece in anything. those 9 championships he won, was because of Jordan and Shaq. All the other pieces were expendable.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I may say some crazy things but THAT takes the cake :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMix27
Also you said that Shaq played with the Lakers for 4 years and didn't win that championship. Because what happened in that 5th year, Phil Jackson came.
And without Phil's coaching and Triangle offense the Bulls wouldn't have been as effective.
It's ok to diss players or etc.. but saying that Phil Jackson can't coach is just a stupid statement.
when shaq moved to the lakers he had to grow into his prime. shaq being in his prime and phil jackson being with the lakers were coincidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
Triangle offense my foot. ;D >:mad ;D With Pippen's 7ft arm span span that gave Stockton, Harper, Mark Jackson, Payton and all those other point guards trouble. that left jordan with room to do damage. Triangle offense or not. Jordan dominates on the offensive end, and pippen shuts down the point guard for the other team. And horace grant or Rodman gets all the rebounds whoever is playing power forward.
Phil Jackson's triangle offense is as effective as how the lakers are presently effective. IT SUCKS and it's of NO CONSEQUENCE. its like people chosing their girlfriend's and mother birthdays when they play the lotto. at times the lotto will have those numbers but that doesn't mean those numbers are in any way lucky.
And I'm not dissing Phil Jackson. All I'm saying is that he can't coach, and Avery Johnson is the real deal. Phil Jackson is like Byron Scott. Remember when Byron Scott got NJ with Jason Kidd as point guard, and everyone thought he was a great coach. fact is that it was jason kidd who was running that team. Now Byron Scott is with the Hornets and he regularly stinks up the joint.
I'm sure many would disagree with you if you said that Phil Jackson can't coach when he has more rings then anyone in NBA history with the exception of that Celtics Coach. Thats like saying that Pat Riley can't coach and just happened to stumble on Magic and Kareem.
Phil Jackson has more rings because ofQuote:
Originally Posted by Starr
1. He had the two most dominant if not greatest players ever. Jordan and Shaq.
2. He had owners and general managers who had the werewithal to surround these two great players with the proper pieces. i.e Jerry Krause selected Pippen, traded Oakley for Carthwright, traded for Paxon. Jerry West drafted Kobe, got Glen Rice, got Horry. Joe Dumars is presently such a GM. He traded for Hamilton, and Wallace. He signed Billups, traded for McDyess etc. Don't you think its ironic that Rick Carlisle coached this team and they were good, Larry brown coach this team and they were good and flip saunders coach this team and they are good. :'(
3. Pat Riley can coach. Why? Because regardless of the talent he has on his team, his team are known for playing defense, and running the offense through who pat riley determines the offense should go through. have you ever known a pat riley team to be soft? all those players go to pat riley and come out being men.
Pat Riley has gone soft. he has enforced a no contact rule on Dwayne Wade in practice. They said that on TNT when the Heat was playing the Bulls. THAT is unFREAKINGbelievable!!
well Dwayne wade has to model sean john clothing. you can't want to damage the man's good looks ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Starr
Red Auerbach. I think I've redeemed myself from my earlier Oscar Robertson/Bill Russel mix-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
I don't hold it against you.
Do you follow basketball at all? There was this little string of things that happened to Vince carter. There called INJURIES. The guy's played one full season in his entire career. He also never had the luxury of having a half way decent center, let alone a guy named SHAQ to piggyback him to 3 rings. No one ever said he was 'slipping for trying to develop a fundamental game.' And to close this whole thing out, the mere fact we're comparing one guy in his 3rd year to another guy in his TENTH should tell who the better basketball player really is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
Are u for real? Kobe bryant is the best player in the nba and the second best of all time! hes got it all he can dominate every aspect of the game,he should have won a few mvps by now, hes a freak, lebron is a promising young kid who has really stepped up into a leadership role,but to even compare the two now really is assumptious.
::** Second best player of all time? Kobe's not even the second best Laker of all time ;D ;D ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by buwit
We don't know how good LeBron is.Quote:
Originally Posted by clean
I bolded what I agreed with.Quote:
Originally Posted by buwit
the way d,wade has been playing,i would'nt let any of his teamates injure him aswell,smart move mister riley ;D
I'm glad you agree that such comparison is "assumptious." ^-^Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
:lol: funny
Hell.....no What the? Lebron is the best player at this stage in his career in the history of the game imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
More then Magic and Kareem ??? And Bird ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLuke
I don't even know if he's top 5Quote:
Originally Posted by ImRipped
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Baylor
West
Wilt
Mikan
All can be easily ranked above Kobe thus far.
And Starr, I'm not going to find the quote but you aid that Kareem got the better of Wilt? Wilt was out of the league within 3 years of Kareem entering it, that's a ridiculous comparison.
Bird wasn't even in the league until he was 23 ;) Kareem wasn't until 22. Lebron is 21.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
I think Kareem was better then Wilt. And its not a ridiculous arguement. I think it for other reasons then Kareem getting the better of a Wilt on his way out.Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondRoundKO
how about you find the quote by the guy that said that Phil Jackson can't coach ;D
That was ridiculous in itself but you know I like picking on you more ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
And I'm not saying that Kareem beng better then Wilt is ridiculous, I'm saying that saying he got the better of him when he played is.
jordan easily over both ;D
Lebron is breaking all the records at his age...since Kobe also came from HS I would definitely go with LeBron...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare
jordan simply the best player I ever saw, he had more talent then both and was better team player, actually lebron is young and i like him but they compare kobe to jordan and its just ::** The early bulls teams were far inferior to the laker team that kobe one and jordan single handily could take over a game the way kobe cant. jordans a legend kobes not
you're not picking on me you're stalking me for argument. And I think Kareem is better for other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondRoundKO
Kobe wasn't the starter and wasn't in position to break any records, but he still has. LeBron is good no doubt. But Kobe is better then him.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigragu
Agreed. Kobe is the second best Laker statistically, but all the above you mentioned have legacy's which Kobe is trying to build, you can't name anyone second best anything till their career is done. Kobe will probably be top 10 by the end of his career. And you forgot Wilkes ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondRoundKO
And you rank Shaq above Kobe on the best Laker list ???
One of the best Laker Centers but not top 4 Laker of all time, I'd put Shaq somewhere in the top 10 or 15. History will probably put Kobe above Shaq in Laker history though. Because "as a Laker" he has done more then Shaq. Shaq's got his own legacy to climax in Miami and his has already been written across his career. Kobe is still building his legacy. Shaq's has already been written and we'll see how he can climax it.