Who's Number 1? ESPN Counts Down the 20 Greatest Boxers of All Time

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Originally Posted by amat

Ok this is my second go at this list.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Gene Tunney
6. Joe Louis
7. Benny Leonard
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Lou Ambers
10. Archie Moore
11. Pernell Whitaker
12. Marvin Hagler
13. Kid Gavilan
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Ray Leonard
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roberto Duran
18. Carlos Monzon
19. Oscar De La Hoya
20. Julio Cesar Chavez

I don't know. I still think the order is off but I like them all to be in the top 20. Maybe not in that order but I like this one better then my last. I'm satisfied. And I'll gladly defend everyone's place on the list.

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i dont see howu have delahoya and hopkins and james toney but no roy jones? explain please

Honestly this time I considered putting RJ on but....well outside of Toney, Ruiz and Hopkins, what's one big fight RJ had. I mean the only true mega fight of his career was against Ruiz. Great fighter, immensely talented and probably one of the best fighters but he didn't face enough really good opponents. He basically spent 10 years fighting stay busy fights. And Roy knows it himself, he didn't take a single one of those fights seriously because he knew he was heads and shoulders above everyone else. He could have made good if he faced Hopkins.

Look at how criticized Joe C. is. Great fighter. Probably the fastest most talented 168 lber of all time. But look at him now, criticized because in his 10 years as champ he has had 1 fight that can be considered a superfight. And he's criticized to the high heavens.

But Roy Jones did virtually the same thing but because he was so good, and had such a pizazz about him. Don't get me wrong, RJ is awesome and I loved watching his fights I just don't think he belongs in the ranks of those guys. And I don't have James Toney on there....

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Originally Posted by amat

Ok this is my second go at this list.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Gene Tunney
6. Joe Louis
7. Benny Leonard
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Lou Ambers
10. Archie Moore
11. Pernell Whitaker
12. Marvin Hagler
13. Kid Gavilan
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Ray Leonard
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roberto Duran
18. Carlos Monzon
19. Oscar De La Hoya
20. Julio Cesar Chavez

I don't know. I still think the order is off but I like them all to be in the top 20. Maybe not in that order but I like this one better then my last. I'm satisfied. And I'll gladly defend everyone's place on the list.

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nice list but who are the ones in bold ill be honest never heard of them bro

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Originally Posted by amat

Honestly this time I considered putting RJ on but....well outside of Toney, Ruiz and Hopkins, what's one big fight RJ had. I mean the only true mega fight of his career was against Ruiz.

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Actually, the Toney fight was a much, much bigger fight than the Ruiz one. The fight against Ruiz was only a big deal because of the idea of a former middleweight fighting against a heavyweight. But everyone knew that Ruiz was a paper champion and that he was basically a stiff.

On the other hand, Toney was considered one of the top 2 or 3 PFP fighters in the world when he fought Jones. The betting odds were about even for that fight. Beating Toney was a big deal back then.

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

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Originally Posted by amat

Ok this is my second go at this list.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Gene Tunney
6. Joe Louis
7. Benny Leonard
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Lou Ambers
10. Archie Moore
11. Pernell Whitaker
12. Marvin Hagler
13. Kid Gavilan
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Ray Leonard
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roberto Duran
18. Carlos Monzon
19. Oscar De La Hoya
20. Julio Cesar Chavez

I don't know. I still think the order is off but I like them all to be in the top 20. Maybe not in that order but I like this one better then my last. I'm satisfied. And I'll gladly defend everyone's place on the list.

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nice list but who are the ones in bold ill be honest never heard of them bro

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Ketchel was one of boxing's first ever 2 division champion. He won the middleweight title against Jack Sullivan in 1908 and then defended it against Sullivan's twin brother a couple weeks later. He then went on to dominate the division, beating top challengers Joe Thomas and Billy Papke. In his rematch with Papke, when the two went to shake hands in the middle of the ring and receive instruction, Papke let go two bare fisted punches to the side of Ketchel's head. Ketchel was believed to have suffered a concussion because he was on wobbly legs the entire fight and went on to lose in the 11th.

In the rematch a month later Ketchel gave Papke one of the worst beatings ever. He could have had him out of there fast but chose to prolong the beating in order to get revenge. That fight really ruined Papke, a hall of famer. Ketchel became the first middleweight ever to regain his title.

Then he went on to face Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, who was the champ at 175 but the belt was not on the line, and in one of the bigger boxing turnarounds in history, he got brutally beat up for the first 6 rounds before flooring O'Brien 3 times knocking O'Brien out cold at the final bell. It was a No Decision. They fought shortly thereafter with Ketchel winning by KO in the 3rd. While the belt wasn't on the line, most everyone in the media recognized Ketchel as the real 175 lb champion.

He then went on to face Jack Johnson. He floored Johnson in the fight, one that Johnson said the two were supposed to carry to a decision even though Ketchel denied that. He went on the attack against Johnson rounds 8-10 and spent himself. Between the 10th and 11th rounds, he delivered that famous quote "This isn't human." Johnson came back and KO'd Ketchel in the 12th.

Ketchel then had a fight against Sam Langford that was very well received as the two fought to a No Decision and while he training for a Langford rematch super fight in San Francisco, Ketchel was gunned down by a worker of his at just 24 years old.


Lou Ambers is probably a little high ;D But still, one of the greatest lightweights of all time and probably the best Jewish fighter ever. The first ever lightweight titlist to win his belt back 3 times, finished his career with over 90 wins, all at lightweight. 2 of those wins over Tony Canzaneri and 1 over a prime Henry Armstrong. I'm partial to Ambers just because I've seen a few of his fights and he really looks like a boxer of today fighting 70 years ago. Awesome fighter.

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amat

Ok this is my second go at this list.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Gene Tunney
6. Joe Louis
7. Benny Leonard
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Lou Ambers
10. Archie Moore
11. Pernell Whitaker
12. Marvin Hagler
13. Kid Gavilan
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Ray Leonard
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roberto Duran
18. Carlos Monzon
19. Oscar De La Hoya
20. Julio Cesar Chavez

I don't know. I still think the order is off but I like them all to be in the top 20. Maybe not in that order but I like this one better then my last. I'm satisfied. And I'll gladly defend everyone's place on the list.

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nice list but who are the ones in bold ill be honest never heard of them bro

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Ketchel was one of boxing's first ever 2 division champion. He won the middleweight title against Jack Sullivan in 1908 and then defended it against Sullivan's twin brother a couple weeks later. He then went on to dominate the division, beating top challengers Joe Thomas and Billy Papke. In his rematch with Papke, when the two went to shake hands in the middle of the ring and receive instruction, Papke let go two bare fisted punches to the side of Ketchel's head. Ketchel was believed to have suffered a concussion because he was on wobbly legs the entire fight and went on to lose in the 11th.

In the rematch a month later Ketchel gave Papke one of the worst beatings ever. He could have had him out of there fast but chose to prolong the beating in order to get revenge. That fight really ruined Papke, a hall of famer. Ketchel became the first middleweight ever to regain his title.

Then he went on to face Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, who was the champ at 175 but the belt was not on the line, and in one of the bigger boxing turnarounds in history, he got brutally beat up for the first 6 rounds before flooring O'Brien 3 times knocking O'Brien out cold at the final bell. It was a No Decision. They fought shortly thereafter with Ketchel winning by KO in the 3rd. While the belt wasn't on the line, most everyone in the media recognized Ketchel as the real 175 lb champion.

He then went on to face Jack Johnson. He floored Johnson in the fight, one that Johnson said the two were supposed to carry to a decision even though Ketchel denied that. He went on the attack against Johnson rounds 8-10 and spent himself. Between the 10th and 11th rounds, he delivered that famous quote "This isn't human." Johnson came back and KO'd Ketchel in the 12th.

Ketchel then had a fight against Sam Langford that was very well received as the two fought to a No Decision and while he training for a Langford rematch super fight in San Francisco, Ketchel was gunned down by a worker of his at just 24 years old.


Lou Ambers is probably a little high ;D But still, one of the greatest lightweights of all time and probably the best Jewish fighter ever. The first ever lightweight titlist to win his belt back 3 times, finished his career with over 90 wins, all at lightweight. 2 of those wins over Tony Canzaneri and 1 over a prime Henry Armstrong. I'm partial to Ambers just because I've seen a few of his fights and he really looks like a boxer of today fighting 70 years ago. Awesome fighter.

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thanks for the info cc

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by amat

Honestly this time I considered putting RJ on but....well outside of Toney, Ruiz and Hopkins, what's one big fight RJ had. I mean the only true mega fight of his career was against Ruiz.

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Actually, the Toney fight was a much, much bigger fight than the Ruiz one. The fight against Ruiz was only a big deal because of the idea of a former middleweight fighting against a heavyweight. But everyone knew that Ruiz was a paper champion and that he was basically a stiff.

On the other hand, Toney was considered one of the top 2 or 3 PFP fighters in the world when he fought Jones. The betting odds were about even for that fight. Beating Toney was a big deal back then.

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Yeah I didn't find the Ruiz fight to be to terribly big of a deal because Ruiz was nothing special. But I never knew that about the Toney fight being that big. I know Toney made quite a name for himself after KOing Nunn and I guess it's only right that he was top P4P since Nunn was. But I was 4 years old at the time of the fight (1994 right?) so I don't remember it. Hillarious fight though, I've always liked Toney in the ring but when he got knocked down taunting RJ that was the greatest thing ever ;D

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amat

Ok this is my second go at this list.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Gene Tunney
6. Joe Louis
7. Benny Leonard
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Lou Ambers
10. Archie Moore
11. Pernell Whitaker
12. Marvin Hagler
13. Kid Gavilan
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Ray Leonard
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roberto Duran
18. Carlos Monzon
19. Oscar De La Hoya
20. Julio Cesar Chavez

I don't know. I still think the order is off but I like them all to be in the top 20. Maybe not in that order but I like this one better then my last. I'm satisfied. And I'll gladly defend everyone's place on the list.

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nice list but who are the ones in bold ill be honest never heard of them bro

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Ketchel was one of boxing's first ever 2 division champion. He won the middleweight title against Jack Sullivan in 1908 and then defended it against Sullivan's twin brother a couple weeks later. He then went on to dominate the division, beating top challengers Joe Thomas and Billy Papke. In his rematch with Papke, when the two went to shake hands in the middle of the ring and receive instruction, Papke let go two bare fisted punches to the side of Ketchel's head. Ketchel was believed to have suffered a concussion because he was on wobbly legs the entire fight and went on to lose in the 11th.

In the rematch a month later Ketchel gave Papke one of the worst beatings ever. He could have had him out of there fast but chose to prolong the beating in order to get revenge. That fight really ruined Papke, a hall of famer. Ketchel became the first middleweight ever to regain his title.

Then he went on to face Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, who was the champ at 175 but the belt was not on the line, and in one of the bigger boxing turnarounds in history, he got brutally beat up for the first 6 rounds before flooring O'Brien 3 times knocking O'Brien out cold at the final bell. It was a No Decision. They fought shortly thereafter with Ketchel winning by KO in the 3rd. While the belt wasn't on the line, most everyone in the media recognized Ketchel as the real 175 lb champion.

He then went on to face Jack Johnson. He floored Johnson in the fight, one that Johnson said the two were supposed to carry to a decision even though Ketchel denied that. He went on the attack against Johnson rounds 8-10 and spent himself. Between the 10th and 11th rounds, he delivered that famous quote "This isn't human." Johnson came back and KO'd Ketchel in the 12th.

Ketchel then had a fight against Sam Langford that was very well received as the two fought to a No Decision and while he training for a Langford rematch super fight in San Francisco, Ketchel was gunned down by a worker of his at just 24 years old.


Lou Ambers is probably a little high ;D But still, one of the greatest lightweights of all time and probably the best Jewish fighter ever. The first ever lightweight titlist to win his belt back 3 times, finished his career with over 90 wins, all at lightweight. 2 of those wins over Tony Canzaneri and 1 over a prime Henry Armstrong. I'm partial to Ambers just because I've seen a few of his fights and he really looks like a boxer of today fighting 70 years ago. Awesome fighter.

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Nice list Amat, and cool bit of info about Ketchel.. But since you included him on your top 20, don't you think Sam Langford should be there? From an account I read, Langford was notorious for holding back in fights and carrying his opponent in order to get a rematch, since it was so hard for black fighters to get fights in those days. Apparently the Ketchel fight was thought to be a great example of this. Could be wrong, but either way Langford was a much greater fighter imo.

Ketchel is on the list mainly because...well he was shot dead at 24. He had so much to give after that I always like to include him in the list just so people can learn a bit about him because that's how I cam to learn about him. As for Langford carrying Ketchel, I don't know about that. I've heard contradicting reports on the fight. Some saying he carried him others saying that he really did get caught flush and that Ketchel took the last rounds legitimately. I've also heard that both men held back.

But I should have Langford on the list :-\ Somehow, he slipped my mind when I thought about all the people to include on the list. I actually don't really know a lot about Langford other then the fact that he was the most ducked fighter ever. I guess I should take this time to learn a bit about him. CC P4P.

I have a lot of trouble with these lists because I simply cannot rank a guy from what I've read about him. Willie Pep is regarded as one of the best who ever laced up gloves, but how can I justify putting him in my top 20 when the only footage I've seen of him is a few clips from a P4P profile on Youtube and HLs of his fights against Sandy Saddler? I've never seen Stanley Ketchel besides his fight with Jack Johnson. I don't remember seeing any of Harry Greb. So how do I rank these guys? How can you rank a guy without seeing footage of him in the ring?

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Originally Posted by amat

Ketchel is on the list mainly because...well he was shot dead at 24. He had so much to give after that I always like to include him in the list just so people can learn a bit about him because that's how I cam to learn about him. As for Langford carrying Ketchel, I don't know about that. I've heard contradicting reports on the fight. Some saying he carried him others saying that he really did get caught flush and that Ketchel took the last rounds legitimately. I've also heard that both men held back.

But I should have Langford on the list :-\ Somehow, he slipped my mind when I thought about all the people to include on the list. I actually don't really know a lot about Langford other then the fact that he was the most ducked fighter ever. I guess I should take this time to learn a bit about him. CC P4P.

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Yea back at ya in 24.. Everything I've read about Langford would suggest he was an incredible fighter.. Not sure if footage even exists of him.. He began his career at lightweight though, and was fighting the other ducked giant Black HW's of the day within a couple years, often giving up something like 60 lbs.. The guy never weighed over 200. Supposedly, he had an amazing balance of skills and one punch KO power, sounds a bit like Archie Moore to me.

Here is the man's record, somewhat surprised I found it right away. Pretty much says it all. Look how many No decisions, or pre arranged draws he has on there.. Just shows how badly the White fighter was given every edge in those days. Also notice that it barely ever even notes Langfords weight for big fights.. So who knows what he weighed himself fighting these Giant HW's... He weighed in at 156 when he fought Jack Johnson, who was 185. Also note that towards the end of his career he was almost entirely blind and was still feared and ducked by most top HW's, which is why he had to travel to Mexico and win that title to get fights. Apparently his life after the ring is very very sad as well, he lived on the streets starving and blind until someone recognized him some years later and set up a foundation/care home for him.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=011023

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Originally Posted by amat

Honestly this time I considered putting RJ on but....well outside of Toney, Ruiz and Hopkins, what's one big fight RJ had. I mean the only true mega fight of his career was against Ruiz. Great fighter, immensely talented and probably one of the best fighters but he didn't face enough really good opponents. He basically spent 10 years fighting stay busy fights. And Roy knows it himself, he didn't take a single one of those fights seriously because he knew he was heads and shoulders above everyone else. He could have made good if he faced Hopkins.

Look at how criticized Joe C. is. Great fighter. Probably the fastest most talented 168 lber of all time. But look at him now, criticized because in his 10 years as champ he has had 1 fight that can be considered a superfight. And he's criticized to the high heavens.

But Roy Jones did virtually the same thing but because he was so good, and had such a pizazz about him. Don't get me wrong, RJ is awesome and I loved watching his fights I just don't think he belongs in the ranks of those guys. And I don't have James Toney on there....

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but then who did hopkins fight ? lets list trinindad, delaoya ,and jt thas pretty much it and my bad mayb i seen him on anotha list thougth james was there

I have a problem with Oscar Delahoya being in the all time 20 list. Everytime he fought someone good he ended up losing.