Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by Deanrw
I do consider Mayweather a great fighter. His past accomplishments speak for themselves.
I don't look at any fighter as p4p best as it is a flawed interpretation with too many intangibles. If I did however, I could not consider Floyd to be p4p the best fighter as I am not even close to convinced he is even the best 147 pounder out there. Even though I consider him the most technically sound fighter alive right now, there are bigger and stronger men in his own weight class who have, in my eyes, a very good chance at beating him.
This is the kind of mess having 10000 world title belts up for grabs causes. A fighter gets to pick and choose who he fights and more often than not they will always go after weaker prey, especially when they tie in greatness with winning belts in different weight classes.
Not to take anything away from Floyd, as he is a victim of the state of boxing just as much as everyone else. He has to be wondering what he has to do to prove his greatness as he would have to keep fighting and fighting to cement his claim. All the other top dogs in the division are only aiming for him and not for each other. If they fought each other and let the dust settle, then Mayweather could not skip past their name any longer and he would have to either put up or shut up. This is the exact reason you cannot lay the blame on Mayweather himself.
Not all his victims were slow plodders either, Judah was fast as hell. Sure he has some weaknesses, but he was very dangerous.
why do you even bring up the biggest boxing underachiever this decade to add laurels to PBF. Omit him please Zab is not a plus but another question mark. A boxer with a glaring affinity for melting under pressure.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I do consider Mayweather a great fighter. His past accomplishments speak for themselves.
I don't look at any fighter as p4p best as it is a flawed interpretation with too many intangibles. If I did however, I could not consider Floyd to be p4p the best fighter as I am not even close to convinced he is even the best 147 pounder out there. Even though I consider him the most technically sound fighter alive right now, there are bigger and stronger men in his own weight class who have, in my eyes, a very good chance at beating him.
This is the kind of mess having 10000 world title belts up for grabs causes. A fighter gets to pick and choose who he fights and more often than not they will always go after weaker prey, especially when they tie in greatness with winning belts in different weight classes.
Not to take anything away from Floyd, as he is a victim of the state of boxing just as much as everyone else. He has to be wondering what he has to do to prove his greatness as he would have to keep fighting and fighting to cement his claim. All the other top dogs in the division are only aiming for him and not for each other. If they fought each other and let the dust settle, then Mayweather could not skip past their name any longer and he would have to either put up or shut up. This is the exact reason you cannot lay the blame on Mayweather himself.
Not all his victims were slow plodders either, Judah was fast as hell. Sure he has some weaknesses, but he was very dangerous.
why do you even bring up the biggest boxing underachiever this decade to add laurels to PBF. Omit him please Zab is not a plus but another question mark. A boxer with a glaring affinity for melting under pressure.
For the simple reason that many in here have stated that Mayweather has only fought slow plodders. I picked an example that Judah is far from a slow plodder and I stand by my statement. I also stated that Judah has shortcomings, which was accurate. If you want to really pick apart a boxer based on their opponents, you can do it to almost any current fighter really.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker
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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
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Originally Posted by shza
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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
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Originally Posted by Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker
if Mayweather isn't ATG what do you defy as an ATG then ??
Simple beat a couple of ATG's....... rather simple. This is not a list of ATG's! And especially when the division is in its current state of who is the best and you avoid them.
Addicted, that is a completely retarded and unrealistic response -- it's also in direct tension with your earlier statement that beating Cotto and Williams would make Floyd an ATG. (Hint: neither Cotto nor Williams are ATGs!! In fact, the only other living fighter who's even arguably an ATG right now is Bernard Hopkins (RJJ too, though he's clearly out of his prime). I hope you're not suggesting Floyd has to move up to Light Heavy and beat Hopkins in order to stake his claim....)
No just to beat a dangerous foe that mirrors some of his skills rather than the calculated schedule of fighting slow plodding fighters. Who has has been his largest ring risk ?
There isn't a fighter out there that is anyway even close to Mayweather in technical skills.
Ok not as fast but really fast, not as technical but technically sound, or 2 prominent traits that PBF does not posses such as genuine power with speed, as in Cotto. Or Height with speed as in Williams . Or Height with power as in Margarito. But power with no movement is not gonna beat PBF nor is speed with no power. No one is going to out speed PBF. And many of us want to see those matchups. It is said styles makes fights. And it is my feeling that PBF has manipulated that to a tee. He just may beat the mentioned above but until he takes a risk he will not be anointed his greatness.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
feeling that PBF has manipulated that to a tee. He just may beat the mentioned above but until he takes a risk he will not be anointed his greatness.
::**
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
.....Floyd has PLENTY of opportunities to sort this out on his own
However, if he was just a tad more likeable he would be more accepted as "an all-time great fighter"...anyone can talk, but not everyone has the balls to take chances, vs Oscar that was kind of a chance....Hatton was about the same...one was old and one was small. He hasn't taken on the Hearns, Duran, or Hagler of his era
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
Well i think PBF will fight Cotto and Williams and Cotto adn PBF is hard for me to call but i have a feeling that Williams will win against PBF PW is just not the style for him PW has a huge reach advantage,uses angles well, can throw 100 puches a round and has good speed in doing so as well so we will see.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I do consider Mayweather a great fighter. His past accomplishments speak for themselves.
I don't look at any fighter as p4p best as it is a flawed interpretation with too many intangibles. If I did however, I could not consider Floyd to be p4p the best fighter as I am not even close to convinced he is even the best 147 pounder out there. Even though I consider him the most technically sound fighter alive right now, there are bigger and stronger men in his own weight class who have, in my eyes, a very good chance at beating him.
This is the kind of mess having 10000 world title belts up for grabs causes. A fighter gets to pick and choose who he fights and more often than not they will always go after weaker prey, especially when they tie in greatness with winning belts in different weight classes.
Not to take anything away from Floyd, as he is a victim of the state of boxing just as much as everyone else. He has to be wondering what he has to do to prove his greatness as he would have to keep fighting and fighting to cement his claim. All the other top dogs in the division are only aiming for him and not for each other. If they fought each other and let the dust settle, then Mayweather could not skip past their name any longer and he would have to either put up or shut up. This is the exact reason you cannot lay the blame on Mayweather himself.
Not all his victims were slow plodders either, Judah was fast as hell. Sure he has some weaknesses, but he was very dangerous.
I thought your post was very good and I gave you a CC for your words of wisdom :)
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
I agree with Emanuel about this one. But about not being an ATG though, time will decide that. He is right about what he says about past fighters and how there was more emphasis for them on beating the best to be the best, that's what mattered then. Now there are alphabet soup belts all over the place so it's hard to decide who is the best and who to fight.
Floyd's thing is the "money making" tag ATM so that's where he's at I think. I don't think he's dodging anyone but the "if it doesn't make money it doesn't make sense" thing is foremost in his mind it seems so he goes for the fights with the $$$. However that doesn't mean he is dodging anyone or if he fought whoever for lesser money he wouldn't beat them.
He always shows up prepared and does his best. Sure he comes across as a dik at times but it's just marketing.
It won't be long before there is either a "Pretty Boy Promotions" or he is devoured by the Golden Boy Promotions Juggernaut and is the East Coast CEO or something. Guess that depends on how he goes about his fiscal affairs.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
Sorry for the late reply.
Floyd is the greatest fighter of our era. He has confirmed to us at several weight divisions that his skill is unrivalled in boxing today. Question marks are raised about his failure to unify any division but in reality is there a necesity. Despite my earlier (inaccurate) criticisms Floyd has faced risk. He took De la Hoya and Hatton, two dangerous fighters and beat both, he took the feared Diego Corrales, he took Castillo twice. He took a huge Welter champion in Baldomir (although Baldomir will never make anyones p4p list!) He faced a number of unknown quantites and overcame every obstacle so far.
A magnificent boxer and oustanding Boxing brain, his physical deterioration may force him to retire sooner than he can confirm his ATG status.
It's not that he's going to get any better, but he may need a few more names beside his to cement his legacy. It may or may not happen, but in the eyes of the purist I feel he's up there.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by lance Uppercut
I agree with stewart, but you cant fault Mayweather for selecting the fights with the most money attached.
So he is an ATG then .......... All Tactical Gainer !!! $$$$$!!!!!!!!!
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by Deanrw
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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I do consider Mayweather a great fighter. His past accomplishments speak for themselves.
I don't look at any fighter as p4p best as it is a flawed interpretation with too many intangibles. If I did however, I could not consider Floyd to be p4p the best fighter as I am not even close to convinced he is even the best 147 pounder out there. Even though I consider him the most technically sound fighter alive right now, there are bigger and stronger men in his own weight class who have, in my eyes, a very good chance at beating him.
This is the kind of mess having 10000 world title belts up for grabs causes. A fighter gets to pick and choose who he fights and more often than not they will always go after weaker prey, especially when they tie in greatness with winning belts in different weight classes.
Not to take anything away from Floyd, as he is a victim of the state of boxing just as much as everyone else. He has to be wondering what he has to do to prove his greatness as he would have to keep fighting and fighting to cement his claim. All the other top dogs in the division are only aiming for him and not for each other. If they fought each other and let the dust settle, then Mayweather could not skip past their name any longer and he would have to either put up or shut up. This is the exact reason you cannot lay the blame on Mayweather himself.
Not all his victims were slow plodders either, Judah was fast as hell. Sure he has some weaknesses, but he was very dangerous.
why do you even bring up the biggest boxing underachiever this decade to add laurels to PBF. Omit him please Zab is not a plus but another question mark. A boxer with a glaring affinity for melting under pressure.
For the simple reason that many in here have stated that Mayweather has only fought slow plodders. I picked an example that Judah is far from a slow plodder and I stand by my statement. I also stated that Judah has shortcomings, which was accurate. If you want to really pick apart a boxer based on their opponents, you can do it to almost any current fighter really.
That was a really sharp and brilliant response but the fact is that as long PBF self proclaims himself a ATG then he will have doubters picking at the very principle of suggestion. Gotta go.... need get my big ATG 15" outta here since . I am also a self proclaimer ... lol
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Sorry for the late reply.
Floyd is the greatest fighter of our era. He has confirmed to us at several weight divisions that his skill is unrivalled in boxing today. Question marks are raised about his failure to unify any division but in reality is there a necesity. Despite my earlier (inaccurate) criticisms Floyd has faced risk. He took De la Hoya and Hatton, two dangerous fighters and beat both, he took the feared Diego Corrales, he took Castillo twice. He took a huge Welter champion in Baldomir (although Baldomir will never make anyones p4p list!) He faced a number of unknown quantites and overcame every obstacle so far.
A magnificent boxer and oustanding Boxing brain, his physical deterioration may force him to retire sooner than he can confirm his ATG status.
It's not that he's going to get any better, but he may need a few more names beside his to cement his legacy. It may or may not happen, but in the eyes of the purist I feel he's up there.
* an overaged De La Hoya that fights @ 1 a year
* an undersized Hatton
* a decent but defense lacking Diego Corrales
* Baldomir - little known guy outside of his beating of the average Gatti and
underachieving Judah.
* Castillo - never met a scale he liked. A poorly conditioned boxer with a
questionable committment to boxing.
Are you telling this site that this is the recipe to ATG status? Well Vernon Forrest is 2 fights away (Judah & ODLH) from passing PBF. The Diego fight is impossible and he has already UD'd Baldomir. In addition he has 2 wins vs Mosley and vs Quartey. And Vernon is no where near an ATG. I would have to say your perspective has a glaring hole in it.
Great reply Donnyboy then again it is like trying to get credit for bagging Farrah Faucet today because she was once hot. The name attached is not all that matters it is the time and quality of the opponent s' achievements leading to that pinnacle moment. It is simple to see that you did not interpret this as an analogy. Corrales was as you mentioned at the time at the top of his game. But you have to question some his competition prior to the PBF fight. That is unless you think Manfredy was a beast. After PBF TKO the same TKO feat was repeated by Castillo, Casamayor, and Freitas all very good boxers but not ATG's. Baldomir lol .... nice euphamism "Huge welterweight". Now the Castillo 1 fight was as large a gift as one can receive. However he did beat him soundly in the rematch. It appears that you have changed your opinion on PBF due in part to his destroying of your favorite boxer Hatton. Vernon has fought at previous weights of 147 against Mosley (W) and 154 Quartey and Baldomir (W) So a fight with ODLH & Judah at 147 or 154 is not far fetched. Judah just fought at 154 vs Ryan Davis. So if Vernon were able to win these 2 fights and PBF were to fight Mayorga at 147 or Mosely at 147 or 154 and lose. Then their credentials would look similar. Hence either Vernon is also an ATG at that time or you go back to your original stance on PBF.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Sorry for the late reply.
Floyd is the greatest fighter of our era. He has confirmed to us at several weight divisions that his skill is unrivalled in boxing today. Question marks are raised about his failure to unify any division but in reality is there a necesity. Despite my earlier (inaccurate) criticisms Floyd has faced risk. He took De la Hoya and Hatton, two dangerous fighters and beat both, he took the feared Diego Corrales, he took Castillo twice. He took a huge Welter champion in Baldomir (although Baldomir will never make anyones p4p list!) He faced a number of unknown quantites and overcame every obstacle so far.
A magnificent boxer and oustanding Boxing brain, his physical deterioration may force him to retire sooner than he can confirm his ATG status.
It's not that he's going to get any better, but he may need a few more names beside his to cement his legacy. It may or may not happen, but in the eyes of the purist I feel he's up there.
* an overaged De La Hoya that fights @ 1 a year
* an undersized Hatton
* a decent but defense lacking Diego Corrales
* Baldomir - little known guy outside of his beating of the average Gatti and
underachieving Judah.
* Castillo - never met a scale he liked. A poorly conditioned boxer with a
questionable committment to boxing.
Are you telling this site that this is the recipe to ATG status? Well Vernon Forrest is 2 fights away (Judah & ODLH) from passing PBF. The Diego fight is impossible and he has already UD'd Baldomir. In addition he has 2 wins vs Mosley and vs Quartey. And Vernon is no where near an ATG. I would have to say your perspective has a glaring hole in it.
* an overaged De La Hoya that fights @ 1 a year
De la Hoya is a fighter that will be inducted into the Hall of Fame at it's nearest opportunity. His performances against Mayweather and Mayorga suggest that although he is at an adavanced age he is not shot. His skills are undeniable, only his stamina is faded. In addition Floyd met him at 154 (weighing 150) and still overcame.
* an undersized Hatton
Ricky's my favourite fighter and a danger to anyone. Givin the opportunity he would run riot and rough up any fighter. Floyd was talented enough to deny him the opportunity.
* a decent but defense lacking Diego Corrales
At the time they met, Diego Corrales was seen as a deadly force. Throughout his early career he had bludgeoned damn near every fighter he touched with accuracy volume and power. He rarely touched Floyd.
* Baldomir - little known guy outside of his beating of the average Gatti and
underachieving Judah.
Baldomir, lacked talent but made up for it in size. The night he fought Floyd he weighed in near 166!!!
* Castillo - never met a scale he liked. A poorly conditioned boxer with a
questionable committment to boxing.
I've heard a lot of controversial comments but never have I heard Castillo's commitment to boxing questioned! He was a great fighter, he was chief spar for the great JCC. Up until he fought Floyd he was a well respected and feared fighter. He gave Mayweather and incredible test each timer, but Floyd pulled out the W's.
As I've mentioned before on other threads sometimes it's not the opposition you beat, but the nature of your victories (applicable to RJJ and Hopkins too.) Floyd Mayweather Jr. has dominated every opponent he's ever been in the ring with. Struggling only with Castillo, the fighter who's commitment you've questioned.
Are you telling this site that this is the recipe to ATG status? Well Vernon Forrest is 2 fights away (Judah & ODLH) from passing PBF. The Diego fight is impossible and he has already UD'd Baldomir. In addition he has 2 wins vs Mosley and vs Quartey. And Vernon is no where near an ATG. I would have to say your perspective has a glaring hole in it.
Vernon Forrest is a great deal bigger than Floyd is he not?
Fighting Baldomir he didn't have the massive disadvantage of being "undersized" for the weight.
Versus Mosely and Quartey, he was bigger trhan Mosely and the same as Quartey, so I don't really see a comparison.
As for Corrales, you want to see a ligfht middleweight blast out a Lightweight?
Had you been arguing any other point your debating skill would have helped you.
However, I feel today, noone can debate against the brilliance of Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Re: Emanuel steward says pbf is not an ATG!
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Originally Posted by fin
Floyd is a great fighter but i think he needs to beat cotto to be ranked anywhere near a leonard or duran......
pretty true although i dont really think theres much PBF can do in my mind to rank him above those guys simply because they benifited from great competition who where in there prime (Hearns, Benitez, then Duran and Hagler(to some extent). I think Floyd should be judged on what he has done which IMO is very underated by Steward. ODLH was NOT an easy challenge, up a weight division against someone whose physically alot stronger and more powerful for sure and to outbox him is impressive. Remember a week before the hatton fight there were many people on this forum even who thought Hatton would beat PBF, which says surely Hatton must be a good fighter and therefore good competition?!?!?!?!? but o no just becuase PBF knocks him out people just discredit Hatton as serious competition instead of giving credit to Floyd like they should. Castillo, Corales, Chavez, Judah, Gatti these are all very tricky fights aswell. Ooooo yeah and before i forget....Margarito!! margar fukin ito..... Floyd would embarass him easily he would look like the most unskilled boxer ever in that fight. PBF beats Shane now aswell. Only one he aint fought really is Cotto and that probly still gona happen so whats with all this hating!!!!!
