60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

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Yea and him playing against Cooper and Jones almost cost him the fights. His opposition except for old Liston who took a dive in 2nd fight and was nearly 40, and Patterson who was good fighter at lower weights but didn't have chin at Heavyweight. Other than that his fights in 60s were against mediocre opposition.

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

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Yea and him playing against Cooper and Jones almost cost him the fights. His opposition except for old Liston who took a dive in 2nd fight and was nearly 40, and Patterson who was good fighter at lower weights but didn't have chin at Heavyweight. Other than that his fights in 60s were against mediocre opposition.

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Ice Patterson wasn't a pro at other weights.
And his chin wasn't bad at all. Just Liston decimated it. (Johannson too in the first fight)

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

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Yea and him playing against Cooper and Jones almost cost him the fights. His opposition except for old Liston who took a dive in 2nd fight and was nearly 40, and Patterson who was good fighter at lower weights but didn't have chin at Heavyweight. Other than that his fights in 60s were against mediocre opposition.

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Ice Patterson wasn't a pro at other weights.
And his chin wasn't bad at all. Just Liston decimated it. (Johannson too in the first fight)

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Patterson has the record for being the most knocked down Heavyweight World Champion of all time as i recall ?? so his chin wasn't that good.

He had the skills at Heavyweight but not the chin, plus he was far too small.

I think youy yourself raised the most important counterpoint there.

Patterson was the most knocked down heavyweight champ. But you mentioned the reson, because he was so small. It wasn't that he had a bad chin, a guy with a bad chin would get knocked out. Patterson was merely knocked over and got right back up.

His take on it was "Sure I was the most knockd down Heavyweight cahmp, but I was also the haevyweight champ that got up the most."

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

I think youy yourself raised the most important counterpoint there.

Patterson was the most knocked down heavyweight champ. But you mentioned the reson, because he was so small. It wasn't that he had a bad chin, a guy with a bad chin would get knocked out. Patterson was merely knocked over and got right back up.

His take on it was "Sure I was the most knockd down Heavyweight cahmp, but I was also the haevyweight champ that got up the most."

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Well thats what i meant Donny he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight. Patterson did have massive heart though you can't argue with that.

Agreed on his heart.

For me getting Ko'd is a sign oif bad chin rather than getting KD.

I owed you a CC aswell.

Another thing that cracks me up.Where does everyone get this notion that Ali was soo powerful.I mean the guy could hit you a thousand times a people wouldn't go down.Out of 61 fights he had what 36 K.O. They only fighter at the elite with type of percentage is Byrd.

To me TM's argument makes no sense when he says 60's ALi was a better puncher than the 70's version, isint power the last thing to go in a fighter?

All that tells me is that his quality of opposition got better hence the dropoff

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

To me TM's argument makes no sense when he says 60's ALi was a better puncher than the 70's version, isint power the last thing to go in a fighter?

All that tells me is that his quality of opposition got better hence the dropoff

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It makes total sense if you think about it
Throw a punch at your absolute range
Now take a half a step in
Which one do you think would hurt more
Ali in the 70's knew his hand speed wasnt what it was,so he tried to keep out and snipe,or block ,until he felt a guy was worn down enough to go
Ali in the 60's was arrogant enough to just go after you when he wanted you down
Though I do agree with Ice,he screwed around too much in the 60's he was just good enough to get away with it
You watch him in any fight back then and its frustraiting to know he could just end this whenever he felt like it,he's just goofing off,and getting in sparring rounds,it just happens to be for the undisputed heavyweight title of the world.
In the 70's in his 30's he had to work for things,and outhink people,in alot of ways Wepner was the best thing that could have happened to him,suddenly he realised,he wasnt the same fighter that dropped Foley as a favour

I owed you CC7 JT

joe louis could never beat 60's ali--im sorry--no disrespect to louis--but ali would toy around w/him. if people wanna put louis as #1 hw--thats fine--i just put ali as #1 because he had the best opposition. beating 2 indestrucable fighters from 2 different era's, not only did he beat liston and foreman, but he made them look bad and amateurish. i cant c louis beating either. i put louis as #2 in my top ten--he was a great but not the greatest

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Originally Posted by undefeated

joe louis could never beat 60's ali--im sorry--no disrespect to louis--but ali would toy around w/him. if people wanna put louis as #1 hw--thats fine--i just put ali as #1 because he had the best opposition. beating 2 indestrucable fighters from 2 different era's, not only did he beat liston and foreman, but he made them look bad and amateurish. i cant c louis beating either. i put louis as #2 in my top ten--he was a great but not the greatest

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I stopped reading after this part.

m sorry--no disrespect to louis--but ali would toy around w/him.

Biased and ridiculous haven't got time to debate with fans like these.

(This is my 1st post in this 7 pg. thread)


I have a doc. titles 'Ali in 65' really good stuff on early Ali in this one.

In regards to the title of thread well... I mean logic tells you to say 'No' but who knows really.

That was just sad to post something like that.

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

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Originally Posted by Master

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

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I agree with trouble catching him and it being a hard fight...prime for prime....(Louis after the Schmeling loss ali pre exile years)...IMO is a pick em...but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top...we are talking about a guy who didn't have a bad night in 11yrs.....

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Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn

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Originally Posted by Master

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

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I agree with trouble catching him and it being a hard fight...prime for prime....(Louis after the Schmeling loss ali pre exile years)...IMO is a pick em...but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top...we are talking about a guy who didn't have a bad night in 11yrs.....

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but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top

No its absolute ridiculous and someone who is just a fan boy, and has hardly ever seen Louis fights. Louis is one of the best punchers of all time, he may of had slow footwork but he had superb jab and quick hands. Why can't people get into there heads that Ali is nowhere near unbeatable and he actually done most things wrong in boxing, Ali is great no one is denying that but he struggled against mediocre fighters like Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, so he obviously was very beatable, i can tell you right now if Ali fought the same way like he did vs Jones and Cooper, he would have been put on his back side and probably stopped. Ali's performance against Williams was amazing but lets be honest Williams was mediocre fighter and he was well past his sell by date when he fought Ali. Louis vs Ali would be close contested match up and to be honest i don't take *undefeated* comments seriously anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn

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Originally Posted by Master

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

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I agree with trouble catching him and it being a hard fight...prime for prime....(Louis after the Schmeling loss ali pre exile years)...IMO is a pick em...but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top...we are talking about a guy who didn't have a bad night in 11yrs.....

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but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top

No its absolute ridiculous and someone who is just a fan boy, and has hardly ever seen Louis fights. Louis is one of the best punchers of all time, he may of had slow footwork but he had superb jab and quick hands. Why can't people get into there heads that Ali is nowhere near unbeatable and he actually done most things wrong in boxing, Ali is great no one is denying that but he struggled against mediocre fighters like Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, so he obviously was very beatable, i can tell you right now if Ali fought the same way like he did vs Jones and Cooper, he would have been put on his back side and probably stopped. Ali's performance against Williams was amazing but lets be honest Williams was mediocre fighter and he was well past his sell by date when he fought Ali. Louis vs Ali would be close contested match up and to be honest i don't take *undefeated* comments seriously anymore.

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Ali just had that effect on guys Ice, my Father was a huge Ali fan...back then people either thought he was the tops or hated his guts...much of it had to do with out of ring dealings as much as in ring....he was not just a special kind of fighter but person in general.....Without Ali and my pops devotion I would not have started watching boxing at such a young age or maybe even be a big fan of the sport at all.....You can not name too many fighters that when they get beat grown men actually cry...when Ali took beatings from Holmes and lost to Spinks it actually made gron men cry to see him get beat like that so one sided and in the Spinks case lose to a guy who had no business even being in with Ali if Ali was a few yrs younger....even today it is more Ali the man then Ali the fighter people are so devoted to.....as a kid I used to call him my favorite super hero...I am a bit older then you but that just shows how high he was thought of...he always seemed to come out on top even after a loss....


I have said this before...Ali would not be who he was as a fighter without Dundee...Angelo bought more time and fixed more situations in the ring then we can count....without dundee in the corner EG the liston eye ointemnt situation...Ali would not have become the fighter he is he would have quit on the stool and his legecy would have been half what it is today if that....

Plus those situations like the Jones fights etc...thats what made him so great...he beat those moments...would we really think as much if he did not come back from moments like that?....reguardless of the opp

I agree though the Louis comment is overboard....Joe was great and as you said his hand speed and jab were fantastic...the speed of Joes punches added with the power he held over Ali would have been a big factor in the footwork difference....

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

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Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

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Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

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Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali

How did Doug Jones do so well then and Henry Cooper ?? both were slower than Louis and both couldn't carry Joe Louis's spit bucket.

You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Tony Tucker

These fighters alone are better than most of Ali's competition in 60s.

Zora Folley
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Doug Jones

Etc.

Ooooooooooo a puffed up cruiserweight who lasted a whopping...................
An elderly retiree
And a complete nobody,who got lucky
Im so impressed
Yeah the guy who was a two time undisputed,two two time contenders for an undisputed title,couldnt possibly hold the jockstraps of those guys

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

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Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali

How did Doug Jones do so well then and Henry Cooper ?? both were slower than Louis and both couldn't carry Joe Louis's spit bucket.

You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Tony Tucker

These fighters alone are better than most of Ali's competition in 60s.

Zora Folley
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Doug Jones

Etc.

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I was agreeing with your list there ICB up until you posted Tucker... You completely reached for that one there IMO.
The thing to keep in mind there with Ali and his opponents is for example...
Folley was coming off some very impressive wins over Mildenberger, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Foster... So he had fought himself to Ali.
Mildenberegr was the European Champ.
Also curious to know why you failed to leave out some other Ali opponents of the 60's.One thing to look for since you like to look at BoxRec (I'm not saying this to make fun of you or anything) is see how many of these names all appear on each others records?
That's cause these were the best around at that time Oscar, Karl, Zora, Henry, Terrell, Williams etc. etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

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Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

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Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali

How did Doug Jones do so well then and Henry Cooper ?? both were slower than Louis and both couldn't carry Joe Louis's spit bucket.

You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Tony Tucker

These fighters alone are better than most of Ali's competition in 60s.

Zora Folley
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Doug Jones

Etc.

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I was agreeing with your list there ICB up until you posted Tucker... You completely reached for that one there IMO.
The thing to keep in mind there with Ali and his opponents is for example...
Folley was coming off some very impressive wins over Mildenberger, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Foster... So he had fought himself to Ali.
Mildenberegr was the European Champ.
Also curious to know why you failed to leave out some other Ali opponents of the 60's.One thing to look for since you like to look at BoxRec (I'm not saying this to make fun of you or anything) is see how many of these names all appear on each others records?
That's cause these were the best around at that time Oscar, Karl, Zora, Henry, Terrell, Williams etc. etc. etc.

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Tony Tucker was 35-0 and was one of the best Heavyweights of the 80s.

And where do you keep getting from that i look up on Boxrec ?? i don't i have watched most of Ali's fights i know about his opponent's i don't need Boxrec to tell me.

Also curious to know why you failed to leave out some other Ali opponents of the 60's.

The reason i didn't mention all of Ali's opposition in 60s because i was trying to explain to Monkey that Tyson's opposition was a lot better than most of Muhammad Ali's opposition, thats why i only mentioned majority of them and not all them like George Chuvalo, 44 year old Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson etc.

see how many of these names all appear on each others records?
That's cause these were the best around at that time Oscar, Karl, Zora, Henry, Terrell, Williams etc. etc. etc.

They were best of there era i never denied that but it doesn't make them good Heavyweight's, because it was weak era at that time until late 60s/early 70s when the big boys started to come along.

These kind of threads are interesting to a point as i believe a lot of opinions are based on their dislike of Ali personally. With that being said, every era has it's Champions and also rans, Ali in the 60's made his oponents look like fools, does this make them all poor opposition? ( Remember people were saying Liston was Invincible at the time) Patterson was a two time champ and yet Ali beat them easily!
In the 70's big George was going to reign for ten years, he was a monster that could not be stopped and what happened Ali beat him! Tyson in the 80's will be HW champ forever they all said until a big lug called Buster Douglas came along and turned out the lights!
It is impossible to compare era's in the HW division as we now have fighters weighing in at over 240- 250lbs.
IMO there should be a Super HW division! 240lb and over.

I don't hate Ali.....I respect him as a fighter, he is a great....I don't LIKE him but I respect him.


That being said fighters that could jab and move gave Ali more trouble than the plodding power punchers.....KEN NORTON he was strong and athletic....more awkward than anything but he gave Ali trouble and beat him. Hell Billy Daniels did very well vs Ali before a cut stopped the fight. You match that against Liston, Foreman, and Shavers and you'll see the truth.

Joe Frazier was the exception and if Mike Tyson had the heart of Frazier hell yeah he'd destroy Ali and I don't think anyone would doubt that but we all know he was completely lacking in that area.




The Superheavyweight issue is moot considering Jess Willard and Primo Carnera amongst others fought waaaay long ago

Again this has to be pointed out,we're discussing the 60's Ali in his 20's,not the 70's Ali in his 30's

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

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Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him ;)

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

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Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him ;)

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

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Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable. ::**

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

---

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him ;)

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

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Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable. ::**

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Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

Some of the best Heavyweights in history :lolhaha:

Most of those fighters wouldn't even make it into Heavyweight top 20 list on most experts list's.

Infact i'll give you 20 Heavyweights right now that are rated higher higher than all those Heavyweights except for Patterson and Liston of course. This list isn't in order.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Evander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
John L. Sullivan
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Joe Jeannette

Need i go on ?? and they were just the ones that come to mind in a few seconds if i really thought about it i could name at least 30 who are higher.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

Point out one thing where i was wrong ?? i think your find everything i said was facts, the only reason you aren't debating is because you have no counter argument.

I have been following boxing for about 10 years im 18, and i also do amateur boxing and i know a lot about the sport so don't try insult me because you don't agree with me.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable.

Umm actually Scrap implied that Robinson's opposition wasn't that great at Welterweight, and i said his opposition at Welterweight is questionable but i also said i haven't seen his fights at Welterweight, so i can't really comment on it so i asked Scrap for his opinion because he has seen Robinson's fights at Welterweight stop me if im wrong ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.

I see it in Ali's corner what they were doing its well known fact, and as for Pryor vs Arguello controversy, i said i had no comment on it because we can only speculate. I also said i wouldn't be surprised if he did have some kind of substance in his drink, but there's a lot of controversy's in boxing like someone in the crowd shouting out * body shot body shot* just before Hopkins stops Oscar with a body shot but like i said we can only speculate.

Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?

If you see my previous comment's i said they were best Heavyweight's at that time, but that doesn't make them *great* Heavyweight's like Welshdevilrob was trying to imply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.

I see it in Ali's corner what they were doing its well known fact, and as for Pryor vs Arguello controversy, i said i had no comment on it because we can only speculate. I also said i wouldn't be surprised if he did have some kind of substance in his drink, but there's a lot of controversy's in boxing like someone in the crowd shouting out * body shot body shot* just before Hopkins stops Oscar with a body shot but like i said we can only speculate.

Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?

If you see my previous comment's i said they were best Heavyweight's at that time, but that doesn't make them *great* Heavyweight's like Welshdevilrob was trying to imply.

---

Well if Welsh was saying they were greats I gotta disagree with him also. But they were the best around that's why some of them gave Ali some really tough fights. But in the end Ali prevailed he beat them and went on to become who we know as 'The Greatest'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardo "Finito" Lopez

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

---

So you have no comment on the Aaron Pryor mixed bottle when I've brought it up and there is actual video evindece of this in the in between rounds.
But you want to bring up salts & a cut glove inot this debate....
Come on ICB surely if you know about the salts & glove you know about the mixed drink. The other time in one of our Alexis & Pryor debates you said and I quote "I don't know much about the mixed drink so I can't comment"
What is there to know, Pryor was given a substance during a resting period I came out gungd blazing like someone had just lit a fire cracker in him.
Oh! and also check out the Bowe - Bruno thread. ;)

---

Why are you bringing up things non related to this thread ?? its well known fact Ali had smelling salts that wern't allowed in UK at that time its not an opinion its a fact. I don't know what was in Aaron Pryor's drink so we can only speculate, im no expert on what is mixed in drinks. But all the things you *think* was in Aaron Pryor's bottle is an opinion not fact thats pretty clear cut to me.

Pryor always rushed out of his corner and always had amazing stamina.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.
You want to talk about facts?
Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?
You guessed it they lost to Ali that's why he was the best in that era cause he beat them all.
20 yrs. from now someone will try and breakdown Lennox opposition they'll crap about Vitaly, Rahman, Evander but the fact of the matter is they were the best around and he beat them.

---

I bring it up cause it seems funny to me that you had no comment on that situation but here with Ali it appears as though you were in the corner and saw it all.

I see it in Ali's corner what they were doing its well known fact, and as for Pryor vs Arguello controversy, i said i had no comment on it because we can only speculate. I also said i wouldn't be surprised if he did have some kind of substance in his drink, but there's a lot of controversy's in boxing like someone in the crowd shouting out * body shot body shot* just before Hopkins stops Oscar with a body shot but like i said we can only speculate.

Facts are that those were the best Heavy's around and you are trying to break them down like if they were nothing.
I told you yesterday check out their records and see how they all fought eachother one thing they all have in common is?

If you see my previous comment's i said they were best Heavyweight's at that time, but that doesn't make them *great* Heavyweight's like Welshdevilrob was trying to imply.

---

Well if Welsh was saying they were greats I gotta disagree with him also. But they were the best around that's why some of them gave Ali some really tough fights. But in the end Ali prevailed he beat them and went on to become who we know as 'The Greatest'.

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I never denied that Mick i totally agree with everything you just said CC.

I stand by my comment that those fighters are some of the best Heavyweights that have ever lived. I'm not going to say that only fighters that are in a Top 20 or 30 are the only ones who can be considered as some of the best in history - I'm not narrow minded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

Folley was a magnificant technical boxer and Ali probably fought the best he has ever done against Cleveland Williams. Watch that fight (Williams) and if you still have the same opinion then so be it. Ali punished brutally both Terrell and Paterson for constantly calling him "Cassius Clay".

Riddick Bowe - he wasn't quick enough or powerful enough to beat Ali and it would have been very onesided.

As for Cooper - Ali beat him twice in the 60's and Yes Cooper dropped him but he got up and prevailed - that fight is one of the most misremembered in History and people often overexagerate the length of time Ali had to recover. The punch did indeed land just before bell - that's not Ali's fault.

Ali never got knocked-out in his career and was only stopped once on his feet when he was already damaged and shouldn't have been in the ring against Holmes, who tried mighty hard to KO Ali in the 1st- that says to anyone that he could take a punch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

I stand by my comment that those fighters are some of the best Heavyweights that have ever lived. I'm not going to say that only fighters that are in a Top 20 or 30 are the only ones who can be considered as some of the best in history - I'm not narrowminded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

Folley was a magnificant technical boxer and Ali probably fought the best he has ever done against Cleveland Williams. Watch that fight (Williams) and if you still have the same opinion then so be it. Ali punished brutally both Terrell and Paterson for constantly calling him "Cassius Clay".

Riddick Bowe - he wasn't quick enough or powerful enough to beat Ali and it would have been very onesided.

As for Cooper - Ali beat him twice in the 60's and Yes Cooper dropped him but he got up and prevailed - that fight is one of the most misremembered in History and people often overexagerate the length of time Ali had to recover. The punch did indeed land just before bell - that's not Ali's fault.

Ali never got knocked-out in his career and was only stopped once on his feet when he was already damaged and shouldn't have been in the ring against Holmes, who tried to mightly hard KO Ali in the 1st- that says to anyone that he could take a punch.

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I stand by my comment that those fighters are some of the best Heavyweights that have ever lived. I'm not going to say that only fighters that are in a Top 20 or 30 are the only ones who can be considered as some of the best in history - I'm not narrowminded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

But they aren't some of the best in Heavyweight history not even close. I could even name 40 if i wanted the point is that to be considered *great* Heavyweight you at least need to be top 20 of all time, plus beating good opposition most of the fighters you mentioned only had 1 or 2 goodish wins in there whole career and they were beaten by the elite Heavyweight's, those fighters would struggle to make top 40 let alone top 20 and i have never heard anyone consider the likes of Terrell and Chuvalo as great Heavyweights.

i'm not narrowminded enough to keep to 20 fighters when tens of thousands have competed.

Why do you have to keep having digs at me all the time ?? why can't you debate sensibly without insulting people and having digs at people ?? no one considers those fighters to be *greats* so your telling me you consider. Terrell, Chuvalo, Jones, etc to be one of the greats of Heavyweight division ??

Folley was a magnificant technical boxer and Ali probably fought the best he has ever done against Cleveland Williams. Watch that fight (Williams) and if you still have the same opinion then so be it. Ali punished brutally both Terrell and Paterson for constantly calling him "Cassius Clay".

They were goodish fighters nothing more, nothing less. Ali did beat Williams in fine fashion i never denied that but Williams was 33 at the time and was past his peak. Just look at my previous posts i have gave you the facts about each of the opponents.

Riddick Bowe - he wasn't quick enough or powerful enough to beat Ali and it would have been very onesided.

Was Doug Jones quick or powerful ?? and to say Bowe isn't powerful enough is ridiculous Bowe is 235. 6,5 in his prime and he did hit pretty hard, and considering Bowe is bigger than Ali, in fact it would be the biggest opponent Ali has faced your not going to sit there with a straight face and tell me Bowe's power would have no effect on Ali are you ?? when Ali got knocked down by a Cruiserweight like Henry Cooper.

As for Cooper - Ali beat him twice in the 60's and Yes Cooper dropped him but he got up and prevailed - that fight is one of the most misremembered in History and people often overexagerate the length of time Ali had to recover. The punch did indeed land just before bell - that's not Ali's fault.

It doesn't change the fact that Ali had to have smelling salts plus his glove split to help him recover.