Textbook style and form > Physical ability.
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Textbook style and form > Physical ability.
I'd say it was more 2 - 3 rounds, 4 might be pushing it. The reason I say that is because there were several rounds where PBF just didn't do enough to win the round even when he was making Oscar miss. I'd say he clearly outpointed DLH but not out fought him or gave him a beating. But that is just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing
Eather way, my point is you cannot use DLH as a common opponent comparison between Tito and Floyd given that there is 8 years sepperating these two fights and that DLH was simply not the same fighter. Not to mention DLH was attempting to fight Floyd in a way that is not his norm. DLH is not exactly a good preassure fighter he does alot better when he uses the jab and boxes. He's a boxer/Puncher not a swarmer like he tried to be against PBF.
Yes DLH did better at 154 but he also had slightly better competition at 147.
BTW, as you said before DLH made Tito miss a lot of jabs but Tito still landed 39% of his power shots. That ain't too bad.
yeah definately....being technically amazing is always gona win because even getting old or off form you can still pull the tricks and get the tactics right to win the fight. Where as having natural physical ability will go over time and without mastering other aspects will leave you wide open as shown by Jones vs Tarver for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Cockney me train of thought precisely.
I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.
However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.
Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.
So would you agree with people who are worried about RJJ actually beating Tito and getting back in the ring with a genuine world champ who could cause him some serious damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
I agree that some fighters can lean on the skills better than others, and I'm not convinced that everyone can overcome the loss of speed and reflexes. Whether RJJ still has it in him to learn those, we'll see over the coming year.
If Wacko is right and Roy has been working on developing a more conventional style and can adapt to the reality that he can't rely 90% on his reflexes, he could still have a few fights left in him at high level. He's never going to be B-Hop, in terms of ring craftiness, but if I can just stop dropping in hands and work off an improved jab a big, he can present a challenge to some of the young bucks. I'm just not sure Roy has the humility to reinvent himself like that, but I think if he were interested in developing a new set a skills, he would be fighting more often. If he had gone back to the drawing board after the 2nd Tarver loss, I think he would be real force in at LHW right now and a threat to anybody, but as it stands, I don't think that has happened. He's changed his style some, but I don't think he's fought enough in the last two years to refine a new style to a championship level.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
Yes I would.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
Roy was never taught much skill, even in the amateur he could never be descrobed as a textbook fighter, because he never learned the textbook.
At this advanced stage he's trying to bone up and learn the lessons he should have started with and put in two decent performances, but RJJ disposed of those wonderful abilities is a mediocre fighter, not even reaching the level of "good"
Well, if Roy does win against Tito, and manages to get some sort of shot at a light heavyweight belt, are there any champions at the minute it would be fairly safe to put him in with? Clinton Woods maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
It would be a boring fight.
Floyd would be constantly moving and pot shotting Trinidad and Trinidad would be chasing and stalking looking to plant his feet and land his left hook and occassionally Floyd would use his jab to stop the forward progress of Trinidad. I think people really underestimate Floyd's power as well.
Floyd wins on points and Trinidad wins at most 4 rounds and probably because he lands one big shot while losing a majority of a lackluster round.
He'd be "safe" with woods, but to be honest he'd be safe with Hopkins too. Neither of those two are possessed of any dangerous power. However, I feel the real danger is to his legacy. The longer this past prime Jones lingers in the sport the more people are given to judge on. Every further fight he takes gives his detractors another fight with which they can raise the case "Without his skills he's not upto much"Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
An IMO Chad Dawson would KO him now.
mayweather jr. would have made tito trinidad look like an amateur. all trinidad had was power but with very little boxing skills.
hahaha says the guy who thinks Margarito will beat Pacquiao hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Oscar put on a clinic against Trinidad and outboxed him clearly and IMO won 117-111, Trinidad was outclassed and all people remember are the last 3 rounds. PBF beats Trinidad by a wide UD anytime. Trinidad was good, just not that good!
in addition, de la hoya looked for a rematch with trinidad but tito wouldn't have none of it because he knew he got a gift decision.
Well I will say Tito could take any beating Floyd could dish out, I can't say the same for Floyd. I do think Floyd would avoid danger and thoroughly outbox Tito but there would always be that danger of Floyd getting caught....although if Tito didn't catch him early the odds would be heavily against him.
although DLH clearly beat Tito, he wanted the rematch yet when it came to negotiating he wanted it to be 70/30 in his favor, pretty retarded when the guy already holds a win over you on paper, and especially if you wanted redemption, it's as much DLH's fault as it is Trinidad's that the rematch never happened, and it's as much DLH's fault that he wasn't given the win that night as it is the judgesQuote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
I definitely dont think it is a forgone conclusion Floyd wins, Floyd has the skills and Tito had the power. Floyd was stunned by Judah and Corley, imagine Tito. Would be a good fight.....
The safe bet would be Floyd UD but you never know......
agreed, and although i think Floyd would have won by UD Trinidad wasn't as limited technically as some are making it out to be, he was no Whitaker or Leonard, but he wasn't as one dimensional as Kelly Pavlik eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Floyd hasn't faced anything close to the rounded power and game of a prime Tito when talking 147 let alone 154 where Trinidad proved he could carry his game.Floyd had his unofficial 154 debut against a manufactured welter in JMM...thats it.147...Hatton?Judah???I'll spot ya Mosley who btw shook Mayweather to his heels badly with a clean shot in the 2nd round.You think if Trinidad lands a clean left or right off that tall stature of equal measure he could not capitalize much more efficiently?Tito could be boxed and Mayweather has all the assets indeed.Sharp enough to drop him but I see Trinidad getting up smiling as he was known to do.Tito was an entirely different animal than a lightweight Corrales,or the previously mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm glad YOU posted this, 'cause I realize coming from me it wouldn't sound very objective (haha). It's all about weight, IMO. Welterweight is by no means Floyd's prime weight, whereas that's where Tito made his mark. He moved quite easily to 154, also. People concentrate on Tito's losses, but forget the speed of his power punches and the vast array of shots he could unload at any time. Tito in his prime took care of more than his share of previously undefeated fighters... and he attacked equally well to the head and body. You're also correct about the knockdowns. Tito had a penchant for getting up from those and shifting into a different gear, much to the dismay of his opponents.
Yes, Floyd is an all-time great... but in no way should be automatically be placed over Tito at 147 or 154.
...in boxing anything is possible. One of the great things about the sport. Bradley beat witter and with all the knowledge out there no one saw that coming.
Tito was a beast at welter and he beat very good fighters like Campus and Oba carr who were undefeated fighters. I think by the time he fought ODH, he may have been tight at the weight. Before Floyd beat Shane I would have said Tito wins easy, but after that performance I have to give him credit and he could possibly live with Tito, but one mistake and he would be knocked out. Tito broke down opponents and most were negative because they could not handle the power. I say Tito by decision.
My opinion hasn't changed in 3 years or so, Floyd Mayweather Jr by UD. Felix Trinidad did beat some good fighters, but overall his limited ability to adjust. Would be his downfall, but i don't think he would be blown away.
Just the sheer size and physical presence of Felix Trinidad, would give Floyd Mayweather Jr stylistic and mental problems.
Thanks god you are not a judge at boxing matches. Really, the fight with Oscar was very, very close, and for me it could be called a draw. However, I see lack of objectivity when I see posts indicating that Tito only won the last 3 ronds (an believe me I saw this fight a lot of times trying to remain objective). In several rounds Tito chased Chicken De La Hoya for almost 2.5 minutes connecting punches 1 at a time during the marathon, then at the closing Chicken stopped and used his superior speed trying to impress and still the rounds. The problem I see is that rounds are of 3 minutes not 30 seconds. With Floyd it could be a great fight or another expensive PPV marathon, but we will never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
And, I agree Tito was not good... He was GREAT!!!!!!!!! Tito, Tito, Tito, Tito... ;)
De La Hoya ran for the last 3 rounds only, he pretty much won 5 of the first 7 rounds then won rounds 8 and 9, then got on his bike and rode it through 10,11, and 12, it was a clear win for DLH, at the very least it should have been 115-113 DLH, Tito would have been lucky to get a draw, this fight is no different than Sturm/DLHQuote:
Originally Posted by Puerto Rican PunchThanks god you are not a judge at boxing matches. Really, the fight with Oscar was very, very close, and for me it could be called a draw. However, I see lack of objectivity when I see posts indicating that Tito only won the last 3 ronds (an believe me I saw this fight a lot of times trying to remain objective). In several rounds Tito chased Chicken De La Hoya for almost 2.5 minutes connecting punches 1 at a time during the marathon, then at the closing Chicken stopped and used his superior speed trying to impress and still the rounds. The problem I see is that rounds are of 3 minutes not 30 seconds. With Floyd it could be a great fight or another expensive PPV marathon, but we will never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
And, I agree Tito was not good... He was GREAT!!!!!!!!! Tito, Tito, Tito, Tito... ;)
No way Tito won a round from 2- 9. Oscar made him look foolish on occaisons. I have watched it through many times, the first round was a nill all draw and from 2 through 9 was as good as Oscar has ever fought. It was a rubbish decision and Tito was a very lucky man that night, he knew he lost and looked surpised when the decision went his way! PBF would box his ears off!Quote:
Originally Posted by Puerto Rican PunchThanks god you are not a judge at boxing matches. Really, the fight with Oscar was very, very close, and for me it could be called a draw. However, I see lack of objectivity when I see posts indicating that Tito only won the last 3 ronds (an believe me I saw this fight a lot of times trying to remain objective). In several rounds Tito chased Chicken De La Hoya for almost 2.5 minutes connecting punches 1 at a time during the marathon, then at the closing Chicken stopped and used his superior speed trying to impress and still the rounds. The problem I see is that rounds are of 3 minutes not 30 seconds. With Floyd it could be a great fight or another expensive PPV marathon, but we will never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
And, I agree Tito was not good... He was GREAT!!!!!!!!! Tito, Tito, Tito, Tito... ;)
Oscar has no right to complain about the decision considering that he ran for the last 3 1/2 rounds. He made an supreme error in judgment that night instead of doing what he did the 1st 9.
I haven't seen it in 2 or 3 years but I remember it being that after 9 rounds it was 6-3 in favor of Oscar for me, it would have been 7-2 but he started running for the last half of the 9th round, so I gave it to Trinidad. And I gave the last 3 to Trinidad. So on my score card it was 6-6, so the fight was a draw to me.
People keep on saying Oscar got robbed. No one robbed Oscar but himself. He's the one that ran the last 3 1/2 rounds. That's the truth.
The only thing i have to add in argument for Tito is that the Oscar he fought against that night would have a MUCH better chance of beating Floyd Mayweather.
Not only that, but Floyd has had to use his body strength and/ or pressure in alot recent fights wherever the other guy is a puncher/ aggressive (Judah, Mosley, Hatton etc).
But against a bull like Baldomir Mayweather had to stay away. Against Oscar, he had to be careful (and wait for Oscar to tire) too.
Against Tito, again, physical contact would be kept to a minimum, not because Tito is physical but because Mayweather ain't strong enough to do what he has been doin lately with regards to his inside game (which has been a big part of his game for years). So Mayweather would wind up looking quite negative for the whole duration of the fight.
Lets not forget that Tito in his 147 prime was a puncher for 12 whole rounds (He didn't slow down against Oscar).
With that in mind, Mayweather could definitely do a better job than Oscar on the 'D' but on the 'A' im not so sure. I just get the feeling that with Tito, it is possible that we could have a fighter that is just:
* Too Big
* Too Strong
* Too Fit
* Too Tough
* Punches Too Hard
* A Bridge Too Far
It's funny, I get the feeling that if these guys were at 147 at the same time, neither of em would go near each other due to the associated risks each fighter carries (that we have been debating since 2007 :rolleyes: ) unless one of 'em was past their prime (an all to common occurrence in a fighters career these days).
Not really a conclusive post but just redefining the dynamic of the argument :p
I am sure that Floyd would come up with some reason why he couldn't fight TITO