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Not only are we living in the worst HW era but we are living in the shittiest boxing era in general..
There may be some deep divisions like 147 but what's the point when guys arent mixing it up..
And look at all the matchups that are being blocked due to politics.. its fuckjn bullshit.
Only throwback division at the miment is 112... flyweight division!
Here is another reason why young people are staying away from boxing. How many fighters make any real money? 4 maybe 5 tops. In MLB the lowest you can make is 450,000 dollars per year. That's what they pay rookies. So why would you go into boxing. How many stories are there about a guy who has been champ for years only to retire with nothing. There is nothing to stop a promoter or manage from stealing as much as they want. Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jorden, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron still have money. It's very hard to find one fighter who still has money. So If I was a young man I would say fuck boxing. This is why this era is very weak. The world needs a boxing union like all other sports around the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
There is more money in boxing than ever before you bloody idiot LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1Here is another reason why young people are staying away from boxing. How many fighters make any real money? 4 maybe 5 tops. In MLB the lowest you can make is 450,000 dollars per year. That's what they pay rookies. So why would you go into boxing. How many stories are there about a guy who has been champ for years only to retire with nothing. There is nothing to stop a promoter or manage from stealing as much as they want. Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jorden, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron still have money. It's very hard to find one fighter who still has money. So If I was a young man I would say fuck boxing. This is why this era is very weak. The world needs a boxing union like all other sports around the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
That's why guys like you try to criticize their fight rate by saying they are too wealthy now to have to compete all the time..
Which is it? You can't have it both ways???
Your failing mate! Your Golden Era.. Is now just the "Olden Era" hahaha =P
Brother max, You are missing the point. Yes there is more money but how much of it do they keep? Mike Tyson said Don King would charge him 8,000 dollars for towels. There is no way anyone could do that in other sports. In the MLB a agent can only charge 1%. that's the rules. In boxing there is no rules. A manager in boxing can get anywhere from 30 to 50% of a fighters money. If we want to bring back boxing to it's hey day something has to change. In fact Don King wanted to buy a NBA team. The NBA said no fucking way.
classic maxpower logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerIn a nutshell...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
46 yr old Holyfield is still Holyfield, and Holyfield lost that fight. Losing 2 fights in an entire career to good opponents is a good record, the rest of Haye's opponents were also good opponents. Sultan had a very good if short career, he still BEAT Holyfield, didn't lose to Austin and did alright against Wlad, it's Wlad friggin Klitschko, he doesn't lose rounds to anyone!! Brewster loss was a sham, Wlad was sick, Judd letter is conclusive, rematch showed us the real ending. Sanders was a shock KO loss same as happened to Lewis against McCall, Sanders was aggressive, fast, long southpaw with great power, peculiar circumstances for Wlad who didn't adapt to fast enough, didn't prepare for properly and got caught earrly. Also featured a massive sandwich headbutt to strt the sequence. Sanders ducked rematch afterwards and Wlad pursured belts. Puritty similar story to Thompson vs Haye, old veteral drowned young thletic kid, survived because he had iron chin, hefty weight and experience and had power to finish against gassed out Wlad. Wlad never really ever has been outboxed entire career.
Brewster would have KO'd Ali definitely, Purritty was shit boxer, I think Ali might have UD'd him but even still, Ali never fought an oppoent as heavy+experienced+hard chinned as Ross!! Ali's effective speed (his ability to land and get out) isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's. Wlad's massive range advantage (his heght and reach combined and long style) and own speed ensures Wlad would win out in nearly every exchange over any version of Ali. Furthermore Wlad could just walk through Ali without getting hurt from one of the most featherfisted HW's of all time KOratio 33%!
Perhaps best way to show is that Ali almost always had both a height advantage + a weight advntage over all opponents whom he beat convincngly. Against Wladimir he is the one who is outsized in both departments. I could go on!!
and if you say that ali was feather fisted then you have obviously never watched him fight.
Yeah I do give you that, and I think many things about boxing today in fact do suck so on this line of reason I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
But the conclusion that the current division is talentless and that these reasons are scaring kids out of boxing is ludicrous. In fact the argument could be made that today with the emergence of fighter/promoters that they are beginning to care more about the fighters than previous.. Don King and Arum etc excluded of course but these figures would have always existed in boxing.
I think the current scene has problems but I would not want to go back to the days of 15 round featherfist fights, unprepared, unrecovered bum fights monthly etc, that would be rubbish. I'm sure there can be a happy medium!!
I believe a person is going to be a boxer mainly anyway if they have fight in them and are inrtroduced to it by their father/family who like boxing or got caught up with a trainer or other boxers in their area while young, it's inevitable, after a year or 2 boxing while young I would say most would not want to suddenly become interested in basketball or football!! By then, fighting is what they know best. Just a theory.
What I see more often is ppl from OTHER sports, coming to boxing!!!
Yeah you know what I meant fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherclassic maxpower logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerIn a nutshell...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
46 yr old Holyfield is still Holyfield, and Holyfield lost that fight. Losing 2 fights in an entire career to good opponents is a good record, the rest of Haye's opponents were also good opponents. Sultan had a very good if short career, he still BEAT Holyfield, didn't lose to Austin and did alright against Wlad, it's Wlad friggin Klitschko, he doesn't lose rounds to anyone!! Brewster loss was a sham, Wlad was sick, Judd letter is conclusive, rematch showed us the real ending. Sanders was a shock KO loss same as happened to Lewis against McCall, Sanders was aggressive, fast, long southpaw with great power, peculiar circumstances for Wlad who didn't adapt to fast enough, didn't prepare for properly and got caught earrly. Also featured a massive sandwich headbutt to strt the sequence. Sanders ducked rematch afterwards and Wlad pursured belts. Puritty similar story to Thompson vs Haye, old veteral drowned young thletic kid, survived because he had iron chin, hefty weight and experience and had power to finish against gassed out Wlad. Wlad never really ever has been outboxed entire career.
Brewster would have KO'd Ali definitely, Purritty was shit boxer, I think Ali might have UD'd him but even still, Ali never fought an oppoent as heavy+experienced+hard chinned as Ross!! Ali's effective speed (his ability to land and get out) isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's. Wlad's massive range advantage (his heght and reach combined and long style) and own speed ensures Wlad would win out in nearly every exchange over any version of Ali. Furthermore Wlad could just walk through Ali without getting hurt from one of the most featherfisted HW's of all time KOratio 33%!
Perhaps best way to show is that Ali almost always had both a height advantage + a weight advntage over all opponents whom he beat convincngly. Against Wladimir he is the one who is outsized in both departments. I could go on!!
and if you say that ali was feather fisted then you have obviously never watched him fight.
And I have seen nearly every one of Ali's fights and that's why I am qualified to say with confidence that he is the most overratd fighter of all time and an extreme featherfist.
Ali never ONCE scored what could be described as a proper canvas KO that was not surrounded by some issue like a gas tank related issue or something like a suspect dive.
The opponents that he opened up, forcing stoppage were all SMALLER than him, little Ali!!
Most of his fights were absolute stinkers. Just like Waldomir has produced for us lately.
If you want to compare similarities between past and present fighters, compare them 2.
Both Ali and Wlad were prolific out-tallers and both relied on their height and range as a big part of their style!! And both resorted to wrestling tactics to overcome dangerous circumstances.
The major differences were that Muhammad outweighed most of his opponents whereas Wladimir does not, and Wladimir learned how to keep dangerous opponents at bay where as Muhammad never did and subsequently got hammered.
Ok so you don't excuse a lose on Holyfeild when he is 46 years old but make all excuse for Wlad for his loses. Ali i doubt would be gassed and caught like Wald was he would ud the Journeyman and for Sanders what big win does he really have besides Wald. Ali could beat Wald on cuts his reach is close to Walds if you ever look it up. I am not saying for sure he wins but man you overrate this time worse then any Historian rates the older generations i mean always good now but bad if the other eras do it. You say people overrate the past and while you do the same fucking thing its very hypocritical.
what do you mean i know what you meant? maybe i didnt get what you meant. you said that a 46 year old holyfield is still holyfield which isnt at all true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerYeah you know what I meant fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherclassic maxpower logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerIn a nutshell...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
46 yr old Holyfield is still Holyfield, and Holyfield lost that fight. Losing 2 fights in an entire career to good opponents is a good record, the rest of Haye's opponents were also good opponents. Sultan had a very good if short career, he still BEAT Holyfield, didn't lose to Austin and did alright against Wlad, it's Wlad friggin Klitschko, he doesn't lose rounds to anyone!! Brewster loss was a sham, Wlad was sick, Judd letter is conclusive, rematch showed us the real ending. Sanders was a shock KO loss same as happened to Lewis against McCall, Sanders was aggressive, fast, long southpaw with great power, peculiar circumstances for Wlad who didn't adapt to fast enough, didn't prepare for properly and got caught earrly. Also featured a massive sandwich headbutt to strt the sequence. Sanders ducked rematch afterwards and Wlad pursured belts. Puritty similar story to Thompson vs Haye, old veteral drowned young thletic kid, survived because he had iron chin, hefty weight and experience and had power to finish against gassed out Wlad. Wlad never really ever has been outboxed entire career.
Brewster would have KO'd Ali definitely, Purritty was shit boxer, I think Ali might have UD'd him but even still, Ali never fought an oppoent as heavy+experienced+hard chinned as Ross!! Ali's effective speed (his ability to land and get out) isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's. Wlad's massive range advantage (his heght and reach combined and long style) and own speed ensures Wlad would win out in nearly every exchange over any version of Ali. Furthermore Wlad could just walk through Ali without getting hurt from one of the most featherfisted HW's of all time KOratio 33%!
Perhaps best way to show is that Ali almost always had both a height advantage + a weight advntage over all opponents whom he beat convincngly. Against Wladimir he is the one who is outsized in both departments. I could go on!!
and if you say that ali was feather fisted then you have obviously never watched him fight.
And I have seen nearly every one of Ali's fights and that's why I am qualified to say with confidence that he is the most overratd fighter of all time and an extreme featherfist.
Ali never ONCE scored what could be described as a proper canvas KO that was not surrounded by some issue like a gas tank related issue or something like a suspect dive.
The opponents that he opened up, forcing stoppage were all SMALLER than him, little Ali!!
Most of his fights were absolute stinkers. Just like Waldomir has produced for us lately.
If you want to compare similarities between past and present fighters, compare them 2.
Both Ali and Wlad were prolific out-tallers and both relied on their height and range as a big part of their style!! And both resorted to wrestling tactics to overcome dangerous circumstances.
The major differences were that Muhammad outweighed most of his opponents whereas Wladimir does not, and Wladimir learned how to keep dangerous opponents at bay where as Muhammad never did and subsequently got hammered.
ali had multiple legit knockdowns against cleveland williams who was 6'3 with a 80' reach (one inch less than wlad) and destroyed him. or the zora folley knockout? have you seen it? he was 6'1. folley couldnt get up. im not saying that ali was a huge knockout puncher and i understand that most of his knockouts came from an accumulation of punches but that still shows that he has power. he knocked out legit competition. feather fisted fighters dont knockout high caliber opponents like ali did.
All of your points have been address so may times except your fresh view here..
"Ali could beat Wladimir on cuts"
Ha. For a start, Ali's calculated reach might be an inch shorter than Wlad's but Wlad's stance, style and height all play factors too in range. Wladimir out- ranges Ali by a great deal. And Wladimir is very fast, probably about as fast as any boxer has been or could get for a man his size. I can't see Ali winning many exchanges mate.
And when Wlad hits Ali's brains will be scrambled. Never in his entire caeer was he ever hit with so much concussive force.
Further, Wladimir has among the best reflexes at HW. Muhammad was a notorious punch bag who could not evade a punch if it sent him a postcard.
ExAMPLES... Joe Frazier was target practice, he walked into punches. Muhammad could not hurt him. Frazier was about as 1 dimensional as you can get. Walk forward left hook and slow and short. Yet landed on Ali continuously. Imagine what Wlad would do?
It's interesting you bring up Corrie Sanders because at 6'4", lightening fast (faster than Ali), cracker power, highly aggressive style (like Foreman), 225lbs (heavier than the heaviest non-bummy opponent Ali ever fought (who was Alvin, a nobody anyway) and awkward southpaw style who are harder to fight, there isn't anybody similar to Corrie's qualities in ANY era!! And certainly Ali never faced a southpaw with as high a KO ratio as Corrie Sanders.
Look how Ali sgruggled with Frazier, imagine how he'd go against Brewster, a 20lbs heavier, few inches taller, supercharged power punching version with an iron chin?
Forget Wladimir man, Ali would be knocked out easily by either Brewster or Sanders! No doubt!
I think that if there's a fight Muhammad would win it would be against Puritty but by UD, not on cuts or any form of TKO.
Puritty is a shit boxer and no I doubt Ali would gas like Wlad because one of the drawbacks of being taller and HAVING BIG MUSCLES Like wlad is that if you don't pace, you will gas easier than a pissy weakling like Ali because they burn their fuel at a much higher rate. Young Wlad must wear that one I agree!!
To be fair, Correy was fast - one punch at a time (as well as being pretty stationary on his feet) and was in moderate condition as a fighter.
I'd have him reasonably evenly matched with Chris Byrd. Maybe Chris sneaking a win more times than not.
Just know this. With todays diet and training Ali would be 240+ pounds. He would pack a much harder punch. He had the skill to handle anything Wlad could throw at him. Also Ali prime years were 1964-1967.
now corrie sanders is faster than ali. nice. who knew? i guess his nickname should have been corrie "lightning fast" sanders because everybody knew that he was such a speedster. and who knew that wlad had better reflexes than ali? this is all news to me. and i guess that brewster is better than frazier too even though brewster can hardly throw a punch before he tires out and almost allowed meehan to hold a title if it werent for a gift decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
i hate when people say this because it just proves his point right. ali would beat the HWs now even with his same weight and training that he had in the 60's and 70's. he was just better by a huge margin.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
yes it is the worst. the champ wlad klit is a big ole pussy who fights like he is scared to let loose big punches, and is content to plod around throwing jabs for the full fight, carrying bum after bum. and its the worst because a glorified journeyman like arreola gets big fights and attention. TERRIBLE!!!
Power puncher and 1# fight fan are 100% right. I agree with both post. In Wlad last fight I didn't hold that much on my wedding night. It was hard to watch.
Morons like you are what ruin forums like this. You need attention you big moronic baby? Cause you don't know shit about boxing. Get out of your mom's basement you troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerIn a nutshell...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
46 yr old Holyfield is still Holyfield, and Holyfield lost that fight. Losing 2 fights in an entire career to good opponents is a good record, the rest of Haye's opponents were also good opponents. Sultan had a very good if short career, he still BEAT Holyfield, didn't lose to Austin and did alright against Wlad, it's Wlad friggin Klitschko, he doesn't lose rounds to anyone!! Brewster loss was a sham, Wlad was sick, Judd letter is conclusive, rematch showed us the real ending. Sanders was a shock KO loss same as happened to Lewis against McCall, Sanders was aggressive, fast, long southpaw with great power, peculiar circumstances for Wlad who didn't adapt to fast enough, didn't prepare for properly and got caught earrly. Also featured a massive sandwich headbutt to strt the sequence. Sanders ducked rematch afterwards and Wlad pursured belts. Puritty similar story to Thompson vs Haye, old veteral drowned young thletic kid, survived because he had iron chin, hefty weight and experience and had power to finish against gassed out Wlad. Wlad never really ever has been outboxed entire career.
Brewster would have KO'd Ali definitely, Purritty was shit boxer, I think Ali might have UD'd him but even still, Ali never fought an oppoent as heavy+experienced+hard chinned as Ross!! Ali's effective speed (his ability to land and get out) isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's. Wlad's massive range advantage (his heght and reach combined and long style) and own speed ensures Wlad would win out in nearly every exchange over any version of Ali. Furthermore Wlad could just walk through Ali without getting hurt from one of the most featherfisted HW's of all time KOratio 33%!
Perhaps best way to show is that Ali almost always had both a height advantage + a weight advntage over all opponents whom he beat convincngly. Against Wladimir he is the one who is outsized in both departments. I could go on!!
If Shufford and Etienne can out box Brewster and are the same size as Ali who was a better boxer i think Ali can beat Brewster. Ali would not go out and gas get Koed he was smarter then that. As for Sander he was lost to Tubbs and Rahnman so i give Ali a good shot at him he would not be blown out of the water like Wald was in few rounds. I mean come on you really think Wald so unstoppable that these guys that beat him are that great come on now who has fought better then them the answer is no one really.
So max explain to me how those guys would just beat one of the greatest i mean ali was pretty tall and was 215 to 220 in great shape. The guys above lost to guys of similar size in Brewster on a few fights before he wasted Wald and Sanders to tubbs i while give you Rahman was a big hitter thats about it.
Then there Sam peters who was bashing Wlad around who pretty much lost to fucking whale Tony first time around i am pretty sure Ali would dance circles around that guy and maybe be knocked down once. I mean he fucking so slow never really koed anyone with a good chin. Hell Adamek a guy who could not cut it a Lhw and is smaller then Ali and not even close to the boxer is top top 10 right now this era is not the worst but it is weak and the way you talk about Ali is a joke dude it really is. You must like have a anti american thing going or something because really can't see how you rate Ali like you do.
because with modern technology etienne and shufford were obviously just better than ali and would have KO'd that feather fisted cruiserweight!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
-maxpower
All I'm seeing here is the occasional example here where a modern boxer has had an occasional loss or struggle with another boxer, all of which are modern HW's who faced all modern REAL HW opponents with far better records than Ali's opponents, the opponents in question themselves having better REAL records than Muhammad Ali!
Sam Peter for example and Brewster.. You've tried to give examples how they are crap boxers. Yet both could be considered "Super Fraziers". Frazier is an opponent who would not even be able to compete in modern hw boxing today. Yet Ali had severe difficulties with him. But the OTNB like to tuck that one under the rug!
Let's look at the actual opponents 1 by 1 Ali actually faced during his so-called "magic years" of 64-67 as you've said- I think Ali's real prime was 74 imo. That's when he faced and beat his best opponent and was strong and durable enough to compete with a modern boxer... Next post...
Yet again those 2 boxers i mention clearly out boxed Brewster and one of them was even smaller then Ali and both had shit records. Yet Brewster going to knock Ali out a guy who was in with the most heavy hitter of all time didn't get knocked out. I just think your full of shit really and have something against Ali. Sanders lost to fucking Tubbs come on now and Rahamn one i let go then ices Wald like he should not of been there at all. Say what you want about Ali but he fought the best at least Wlad has not fought the best fighter of his generation so pretty hard to say how good he really is with bad loses to.
1964-02-25
·Sonny Liston
218 lbs
World Heavyweight title
And why is Sonny Liston, cruiser/bum/loser beater, the world champ? By beating a 194 lbs guy (Patterson), who started to box at 160+ lbs? And why did Liston quit on his stool before any action started?
"During the first Liston-Ali fight at the Convention Hall in Miami Beach on February 25, 1964, Sonny had a bad left shoulder. He had gone to see Joe Louis' doctor who treated him for bursitis, but there wasn't enough time for the treatment to work. Sonny was around 45 years old at the time, which was a well kept secret, and old men like Sonny just healed more slowly. He asked the Florida Boxing Commission for a postponement of the fight. He was turned down and fought the six rounds with the damaged left shoulder, which he completely tore up during the fight. He had no jab and no left hook that night because of it."
1965-05-25
·Sonny Liston
215 lbs
World Heavyweight title
Obviously Liston's age (nearly 10 years older than Klitschko) wasn't enough to secure Ali a win. Liston's kids had to be kidnapped by Ali's friends (Nation of Islam) and the referee had to be bribed so that Ali can keep his title. Lowest crowd in history (2000+) of all heavyweight title fights. This era sucks huge time.
Ali got his WBA belt stripped by the WBA for rematching Sonny Liston.
1965-11-22
·Floyd Patterson
196 lbs
World Heavyweight title
Is this a joke? I thought we got rid of Patterson for good, when Liston decapitated him. Why is Ali fighting washed up opponents? And why did it take Ali 12 rounds to KO 6'0'' Patterson? Ali is such a featherfist.
1966-03-29
·George Chuvalo
216 lbs
World Heavyweight title
Who the heck is Chuvalo? 34-11? Seriously?
Additionally coming off a loss against a cruiser bum (Hector Eduardo Corletti, 11-2, 191 lbs). Chuvalo has lost 2 of his last 3 fights?
1966-05-21
·Henry Cooper
188 lbs
World Heavyweight title
216 lbs was too heavy for poor Ali. He wants his 57 lbs and 8-year advantage again.
1966-08-06
·Brian London
201 lbs
World Heavyweight title
London is a cruiser. And what is Ali padding up his championship record with 35-13 bums like London, who are nearly 8 years older than him? What a crappy era.
1966-09-10
·Karl Mildenberger
195 lbs
World Heavyweight title
How in the world did this featherfist (30%+ KO'ratio) earn a title shot? By beating Ivan Prebeg (13-9, 182 lbs)? SERIOUSSSSLYYYY?
And did you know what Ali will say a few years later? That Mildenberger was a tougher opponent than Frazier. Don't know whether to laugh or to cry. Worst era in heavyweight boxing!
1966-11-14
·Cleveland Williams
210 lbs
World Heavyweight title
Just as I thought it couldn't get any worse, Ali fights a corpse. Cleveland Williams (nearly 9 years older than Ali) couldn't train properly the entire year because he was in a hospital after a gun shot. A shadow of himself (intestines and parts of the kidneys removed), limping and outweighed by 35 lbs it was point and shoot for Ali. Probably the low point in Ali's heavyweight run so far.
1967-02-06
·Ernie Terrell
212 lbs
World Heavyweight title
Is Ali ducking hard punchers? Why in the world would he fight such a featherfist (KO'ratio 40%)? Ernie Terell is in the BOTTOM-2 of the most featherfisted heavyweight champs of all time (out of 78 heavyweight champs).
1967-03-22
·Zora Folley
202 lbs
World Heavyweight title
I am speechless, that featherfist (40% KO'ratio) Zora Folley (7 years older than Ali) gets a title shot. Obviously beating three bums (Floyd Joyner 22-11, Jefferson Davis 28-10, Henry Clark 8-2) secures you a title shot these days. Such a poor era.
That is the REAL breakdown of Ali's "achievements" during his dream run. Cruisers and light heavies. Bums and losers. And padded or faded oldies.
I'm impressed! 64-67 Ali. LOL The Greatest of all time ey!
And let's not forget Ali still got pasted in a lot of these fights. And that he enjoyed either a weight advantage or a height advantage or usually both over those opponents.
It seems Ali's "speed" was only telling when he also enjoyed a size and range gift too.
Yet again you didn't answer my question about the boxers i listed you seem to avoid it. Also how can i have Wlad as the best when he has not even faced the best fighter in his generation. Talk about these huge heavyweights but Tyson and Holyfeild did just fine there the same size as Ali. Also Foreman and Larry are bout the same size to actually the only really good big guys were Lewis, Bowe, and the brothers and best of them was Lewis who had a hard time with McCall and rematch he was having a break down and on drugs only real reason i felt Lewis won. Then Evander a old one at that gave Lewis a good run none of these guys a are super heavyweights yet they seem to do ok. I just don't get why your talking about Ali early career at least he didn't get iced as many times as Wlad did and fought the best that was there.
Ok let's try and untangle this mess you have created for me to solve 140...
There's a lot so let me do my best and we'll get there in the end.
For a start I hold Tyson and Holyfield up there with the greatest as well. They are 2 of my favourites. Of my top 6, Wladimir, Vitali, Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson, I think there are precious few fighters who could beat them many times out of 10. Before we consider other 2nd tier champs from their generation youi have picked on or their conquerers, let's compare champs to champs and see where Muhammad rates against them. It seems to me the only fighter whom Muhammad stands good chances to beat is Holyfield.
Because Holyfield did not have the punch to put Ali away easily and Ali had the range+speed advantage over Holyfield. Holyfield had the chin to survive though and even though I still tip Holy to win either by KO or by UD (I personally think he is a better trained and fundamentally better skilled boxer) I admit that Muhammad has a stylistic possibility here, it would be a good match. This assumes a 74 Ali f course for me.
Of the remaining 5 top dogs of the modern era I see no way shape or form that Ali could survive let alone succeed.
But they all suffered losses to lesser opponents. Well my first answer to that is that it is HW boxing. Anything can happen. Does it mean that Sander's, Brewster or Puritty are better than Wlad? No. That Rahman or McCall are better than Lewis? No. Vitali hasn't really suffered what could be considered a clear loss ever, Lewis vs Vitali is imo an entirely even prospect and Byrd should send him a present in the mail for the gift. Was Buster, Williams, McBride really better than Tyson? No. Bowe has a single loss to only Holyfield anyway which was not as convincing as his victories ad his struggles with Golota were due to his blimpness and lack of training.
One of the uniting features about all of these clear losses, and this is key, is that they were either highly skilled boxers anyway or with good unique attributes, sometimes with good records too but most importantly all of them had a big punch and were capable of causing an upset at anytime!!
And this is key, you asked if they could why not Muhammad? Because Muhammad is a featherfist, one of the most punch weak champs of all time and he did not have the firepower to cause an upset pure and simple like any of their conquerers did!
Turn to Ali,
It is not clear that Berbick, Holmes, Spinks, Norton or Frazier are worse than Ali likw the above fighters of mine. To the contrary, some argue that Frazier or Norton should have won 2 out of 3 of their fights! Some argue Spinks should have won again too. I would say Holmes was much better than Ali and Berbick well I'll even giv you Ali was shot so who knows!
The worst part though is that none of those opponents were big punchers, they were all featherfists compared with the modern era!! These guys did not "UPSET" Ali, they in fact OUTBOXED him! With the exception of the extraordinary effort of Buster Douglas, none of the 5 boxers mentioned of mine were ever "OUT-BOXED!" Excepet by each other!
And the plot thickens with Ali...
It turns out that if Ali was not gifted in a lot of his fights he in fact would have lost several more. The Young fight, the Cooper fight, maybe even one of the Liston fights.
About the only difficult oppoennt Ali faced by modern standards, Foreman, Ali succeeded in much the same fashion as Puritty did against Wlad and Ali ducked Foreman for the rest of his life!
LAter we'll look at some other Wlad+Vitali+Lewis opponents that you have rubbished as lacklustre and we'll see if we can once again adjust fantasy, to the comparitive truth of the matter.
In short what you think of as a "bum" in this era, could be HW champ or contender in a previous.
Ali had a 61 percent knock out rate which is not bad still the only man to knock Foreman out. Also Ali was never Knocked out cold either not once in his career. Only stoppage was when he was 38 years old and it was a corner stoppage to Holmes and he was gone by then. Do i think Ali could knock out a gassed Wald yea do i think he could out box Tyson well buster did do i think he could out box Lewis Mercer did. Holyfeild is my favorite fighter and that fight would look like shit if it happened. I don't know why you think Ali would get blasted out when he never has before and fought for some time. People fighting today would be champ maybe in the 50s and back but the craft has gone down a lot in the heavyweights. Admek is in the top ten and he could not fucking cut it at lhw tell me the era is strong come on now.
Also look at how well Holmes did in the 90's and he was pretty much a mold for Ali. He should got the nod and the belt off McCall a man who knocked Lewis out. Hell he also beat Mercer with ease a guy Lewis got gift against pretty much. My how the times now are so much better its crazy right.
Let's look at this era in more detail. Byrd and Ruiz were champions for crying out loud. Even James Toney a big fat MW did very well as HW. In fact I thought he won the first Peter fight. So do people think Ali would not do well against this bunch? In this era only Holyfield and Lennox Lewis where really good fighters. Let's face facts. Wlad has never been tested in his career. Could he win a very hard fight when he need to dig down deep to pull out a win? I doubt it. Ali did, so did Holyfield and Lewis. Heart chin and ring smarts are major factors in boxing. I don't see anyone today that has that. Anyone who is willing to walk through fire in order to win. I see good but not great.
Add Roy Jones to the list beating ruiz. All you need is a ref that will not allow holding and Wlad would not be as effective with someone with speed. :)
See this is where you guys misinterpret the records. "61% KO ratio" is his old time standard record.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
If you calculate his KO% against what we would today consider "Heavyweights" his KO ratio drops to a shocking 33%! That's bad. That's REAL bad. It tells us that Muhammad was in reality, a blown up cruiser like the ones we see today. If you want to view Ali's total record including those opponents then you have to include the total record of all of guys like David Haye as "HW" and you can then see the quality of Haye as a "HW fighter".
Further, Ali's fights featured not a single proper KO against any modern sized opponent. Show me an example where Wladimir has ever been dropped or hurt by a guy that weak? Never! They were all hulking modern HW's!!
Ali was basically KO'd by Henry friggin Cooper! As if Henry could ever drop Wlad even if he stood there with his hands by his side!
Wladimir's chin is greater than Ali's chin... Undisputable FACT! Because Wladimir's chin was tested against the power of the modern HW division. Ali's division was by comparision, punch weak! Frazier landed continuously on Ali for eample, the correct interpretation is not that Ali had great chin, Frazier had a weak punch! And it makes sense becuse Ali LOOKS chinnier than Wlad (as does Fraier), Frazier LOOKS punch weak (as does Ali). FOTC is in reality proof how limited both fighters really were!
Of course there's George Foreman, indeed a hard puncher and Muhammad survived the onslught there to get the drop on him. Well my friend, 2 things, Ali did not take a flush shot fro George on the chin virtually the whole fight, so judging his chin from this fight is something of a misnomer, he did have to attend hospital for his body injuries though. And as for George that was the most stupidly executed gameplan in all of boxing! Wladimir is a better and sharper boxer than George in every way and he wold never ever fight so ridiculous as that.
Wladimir would systematically break Muhammad down over several rounds, punishing every move he made until he was a charmed cobra who stands right in front of him, instinctively glued in spot, ready to be knocked out. He caught Chris Byrd for christ sake! In the Chagaev fight the bell went, Wlad dropped his hands early an he caught a full power shot from Chag on the chin and shook it off, Chagaev a fighter stronger than any opponent of Ali!
I'm not convinced Ali could handle Tomasz Adamek or even Jean Marc Mormeck personally.
Another serious problem with the logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The 3 incidences that are brang up most readily are comebacking Holmes and Foreman against the 90's fighters and old Holyfield against the 00's fighters. First of all, old greats have been coming back a decade or more past their prime throughout boxing history and have performed at the top level. It's only these 3 that are invoked to prove a point, Holmes and Foreman to protect the idea of a golden age (of which the 90's was clearly better), Holyfield to dismiss the Klitshko era.
By this logic then, every genertaion has been steadily getting worse since the fossils of the previous era(s) could hang with them. Something isn't quite right with that theory is it.
The answer is that athleticism and youth play big roles in boxing which is why they will always be successful qualities yet almost equally important is experience and ring IQ!
When Sultan Ibragimov takes on Evander Holyfield, he's not just fighting an older version, but one with the experience of an entire career worth of fights under his belt, same as Holmes vs Mercer.
No I don't think that Holyfield was as good as the prime Holyfield. But I think the difference is not so great as you make it seem!
Holmes and Foreman have even further advantages in their old age, they also had a weight advantage. Weight is such an important factor in boxing that it can make even a bum oppoennt dangerous. The chub might have been detrimental to their athleticism but certainly added to chin and crude power and resistance.
Besides, MErcer was a tanker, he hit hard and took a lot of punches, McCall was inconsistent, Valuev was an oaf, none of them actually fought many live bodies and WON did they??
In the case of Foreman I would even go so far as to say that old Foreman was just as effective as young Foreman!!
Max power is a joker. Ali's chin can not be disputed taking monster punchers like Foreman, Shavers and Frazier illustrates that. To call these guy weak punchers illustrates how mad you are.
Well you can carry on the believe that Master but I am definitely not joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Earnie Shavers was a hard puncher for CW's (KO ratio in the 90%ile)
Against real HW punchers his KO ratio is nothing special, 60%ile.
Against 233+ opponents, the average size of Wladimir's opponents, his KO ratio is non existent!
Plus he is virtually a bum, unco as and has virtually no wins against quality opponents! So we can conclude that Shaver's power was dangerous only to CW's and bums or both but not so much to anything approaching a modern HW. Not surprising since Shavers is about the size of a modern CW!
Let me clarify here, the 70's Ali, DID have a good chin, just not an "iron" chin. Te 60's version, the little guy, did not imo. It was chubby Ali of the 70's with the chin, not the lean athletic version.
As for Foreman, Ali did not TAKE bombs from Foreman. Show me the part of their fight where Foreman lands clean shots to Ali's head? You will struggle! Apparently Ali knew he was lucky here too because he ducked a rematch for the rest of his life!
That George is a hard puncher though is not in dispute.
As for Frazier, KO ratio 46% against 200+, already a featherfist. The size of an out of shape modern CW. What is more you can SEE how weak the punches were, just look at them and then compare them to a Wladimir right, a Lewis uppercut, a Tyson hook, and you can SEE the difference is staggering.
Ali could absorb a lot of punishment, only a fool would dispute that. Single hard shots were not imo his strong suit because except on rare occasions, he was never really subjected to them! Not his fault, it was his era!
Atleast if you want to rate a version of Muhammad Ali against the criteria of modern boxing, please PLEASE confine your comparisons to the heftier, smarter, 70's Ali who is concievably competitive, any promotion of 60's Ali who never once faced what we would describe today as a "decent opponent" is as outrageous as Louis beating Bowe!
Listen most of the guys were over 200 pounds that not cw and i don't think weighing 230 makes your chin way better cant really buff up your chin. If that was true then Lewis and Wlad would not have been knocked that fuck out like they were man weight 210 to 220 with a well placed punch can end things.
wlad has a better chin than ali? maxpower better quit while hes behind. your crazy claims are getting more insane by the post.
Look I'm not saying that being very heavy automatically confers iron chin and power punching, of course that is not always the case. Valuev was not the hardest hitter, and Wlad definitely doesn't have the hardest chin. Conversely Tyson was a hard hitter and Holyfield did have an iron chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The point is though is that I'm not stating these "laws of boxing" if you will for individual circumstances, I am stating them as general principles that can be applied to all opponents across a boxers career. That the heftier the opponents are, the harder they hit and the harder the punch they can take! That is statistically and reasonably obvious!
Yeah sure I'm not denying that a 210-220lbs guy could KO a big man. Tyson obviously could.
Frazier and Ali did not. Shavers never did unless the opponent was either Bummy, or a glass jaw named Ken Norton.
McCall, Rahman and Sanders were the only cold KO's of Wlad and Lenny (Puritty was a gas and Brewster was an illness), and all 3 of them involved cracker punches the likes of which Ali never took or never could deliver.
Shavers might have produced a punch somewhere approaching the power of McCall (although I would argue otherwise) but he could never have delivered it on Wlad or Lenny.
One thing I want you to understand is that those old school "HW's" that weighed 200-210lbs, were what we would today consider CW's. Today's CW's undergo an artificial dehydration days before the fight to make weight and often put on as much as 15lbs before the actual fight.
So when I say that a CW fighter today would have been considered a HW back in Ali's day for instance, they in fact ARE real HW's at fight time even by todays standard!
But I'm not behind. I just made a common sense observation, that a massive square jawed boxer who has only been cold KO'd just once legitimately (in which there was a sandwich headbutt and he still finished on his feet after getting up several times) against the hardest punching division in history over 65 fights has a harder chin than a blown up CW with a pencil neck.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
One of these guys was dropped by a 185lb boxer, one of them was not.
One of them faced and tasted power punchers from the career average of 235lbs with solid records.
And the other faced and tasted the power from career average of 200lbs with bummy records.
I can give examples where Wlad was whacked hard and either did not drop (Chag) or got up to win (Peter). Where are the analogues of this for Ali?
The correct description I think is that Ali had a great chin FOR HIS ERA, but would today be knocked out readily.
Wladimir today has a questionable chin but back in Ali's era would have been virtually indestructible.
nope. you have never made a common sense post. your only argument is that wlad is better because he is better. i have already told you that there have been big HWs in the past but you call them oafs. yet if i call big HWs today oafs then you just say that im wrong. for example, joe louis fought abe simon (6'4), primo carnera (6'6), and buddy baer (6'6) and they were all modern HW weight. louis knocked them all out. but again, you just say that they are oafs because you have watched them fight but corrie sanders, who is actually smaller than all 3 of those guys, is faster than ali, and hits like a truck and we know this because he knocked out wlad so he must be really good even though he wasnt even thought to be a threat to wlad when they fought because sanders was viewed as an easy fight.
thats your common sense.