Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
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Originally Posted by plinden
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Originally Posted by Lyle
OK first off if Vitali got "stopped by Johnson" it was by the ref and I think Kirk was happy about it judging by how bad he got whupped on.
Vitali was a very good fighter whom obviously had to fight to get big fights...who would want to fight a 6'8 250 pound guy who was very athletic, had a GREAT chin and KO'd all but 1 of the guys he beat....one of the best KO ratios ever...I don't care who you say he fought it was just as good as who Tyson fought before he really stepped it up and Vitali did a better job of knocking them out.
I'm not saying Vitali is THE GREATEST or a GREAT (because he didn't stay at the top long enough) but he was a VERY GOOD heavyweight and his style, size, and power matches up good against ANYONE in the history of the sport!
If I'm in a fight, I want Vitali in my corner
I think we can say more. Henry Cooper was 183 pounds. He knocked down Ali in the 3rd, and the fight was stopped on a cut, poor henry. Vitaly klitschko weighs 250+, 6.8. and has a good defence in his stepping back shoulder up, ready to counter. I just dont think Cooper giving away 70 pounds, would be a match for VK, but he was for ALi. Just an examlpe of the fact that Ali had to work against almost always smaller opponents. If not VK w KO ali then a points win because of the straight jabs.
Cooper knocked Ali down in the 3rd!? Ali wasn't floored until his first fight with frazier ???
yes Im almost sure that Ali was knocked down in the 3rd. he got up of course but i think he was down.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by plinden
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
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Originally Posted by plinden
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Originally Posted by Lyle
OK first off if Vitali got "stopped by Johnson" it was by the ref and I think Kirk was happy about it judging by how bad he got whupped on.
Vitali was a very good fighter whom obviously had to fight to get big fights...who would want to fight a 6'8 250 pound guy who was very athletic, had a GREAT chin and KO'd all but 1 of the guys he beat....one of the best KO ratios ever...I don't care who you say he fought it was just as good as who Tyson fought before he really stepped it up and Vitali did a better job of knocking them out.
I'm not saying Vitali is THE GREATEST or a GREAT (because he didn't stay at the top long enough) but he was a VERY GOOD heavyweight and his style, size, and power matches up good against ANYONE in the history of the sport!
If I'm in a fight, I want Vitali in my corner
I think we can say more. Henry Cooper was 183 pounds. He knocked down Ali in the 3rd, and the fight was stopped on a cut, poor henry. Vitaly klitschko weighs 250+, 6.8. and has a good defence in his stepping back shoulder up, ready to counter. I just dont think Cooper giving away 70 pounds, would be a match for VK, but he was for ALi. Just an examlpe of the fact that Ali had to work against almost always smaller opponents. If not VK w KO ali then a points win because of the straight jabs.
Cooper knocked Ali down in the 3rd!? Ali wasn't floored until his first fight with frazier ???
yes Im almost sure that Ali was knocked down in the 3rd. he got up of course but i think he was down.
Let me go watch that fight on dvd real quick and i'll get back to you on that.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by plinden
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Originally Posted by 1st rd ko
Ok, Marciano beats VK? I say no way in hell.
By the way: Alis reach was a great asset for him, not only his size. Against VK he does not have the weapon. Of course Ali was the smartest fighter ever, so perhaps he would invent something new, but with the advantages he normally had; reach, size taken away... i wonder. He still has the speed, but VK is not slow. VK has never been down and I dont think Ali has the power. Who knows. I would put my money on VK. Because of the fact that 183 pound guys can knock him down, despite ali being 20 pounds bigger or more... VK having 30 -70 pounds on any of Alis regular opponents.... no VK wins. However I can see that ali being so smart its not obvious. What I mean is ALis game is to fight on ouside and tie up -but thats what VK can do since he is the guy w reach so it would be a new experience for ali -not easy to deal with.
However Holyfield wont get close enough, and Foreman is to open in his defence.
plinden is reading my mind so I have to give him a CC.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by Lyle
I don't know if Vitali wins vs Prime Foreman ...he has a better shot vs Prime Holyfield
Yes Vitali was a lot bigger, yes his defense wasn't GREAT but he was awkward and hard to hit clean even if his defense sucked.
I don't want to go into size too terribly much because I still think Rocky Marciano beats Mike Tyson but if you look at the size difference between those two and the size different between Vitali and Foreman, Ali, Frazier, etc it's a lot greater.
That being said, if you asked Vitali this question he would probably say he would lose both fights
Vitali's defence was great. Looking at a selection of his fights (not necessarily his hardest fight w Lewis), you will see that a reason that he has never ever been down is that he doesnt get hit much because:
a) He steps back when the opponent is settled to throw
b) He does so with his chin against his left shoulder, with his right ready to counter
c) He pushes the opponent away
d) He moves his feet with smart movements not allowing the opponent the time to aim
e) the jab was as much a defence move as it obscured the vision of the opponent and often he held it out just to keep the opponent at a range where he could hit him
This is great defence. Watch Foreman in his prime and you see a much less elusive target.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
ok i stand corrected. Cooper did knock ali down in their first fight but if you think cooper would've hung on to win that fight by decision, you're crazy. As for ali being knocked down, it has nothing to do with a soft chin. His moving style was extremely awkward and he was knocked down for the same reason wepner got to him in round 8 of that fight, he caught him off balance. Ali was never dazed by anyone's punches through his entire career. Ali was 6'3 about 218 in his prime. Vitali has a size advantage but he is nowhere near as fast as ali. I refer you to the Ali-Brian London fight. Ali was ususally a slow starter but in that fight he came out full force and it's really something amazing to watch. Ali beats vitali in a decision.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
ok i stand corrected. Cooper did knock ali down in their first fight but if you think cooper would've hung on to win that fight by decision, you're crazy. As for ali being knocked down, it has nothing to do with a soft chin. His moving style was extremely awkward and he was knocked down for the same reason wepner got to him in round 8 of that fight, he caught him off balance. Ali was never dazed by anyone's punches through his entire career. Ali was 6'3 about 218 in his prime. Vitali has a size advantage but he is nowhere near as fast as ali. I refer you to the Ali-Brian London fight. Ali was ususally a slow starter but in that fight he came out full force and it's really something amazing to watch. Ali beats vitali in a decision.
A) I dont believe that Cooper would have won unless the fight was stopped. I only mentioned the fight because here we have a 183pound decent fighter catching ali off balance, and going on until a cut stops the fight, against an almost 220 ali. It was just an example of the fact that ALi almost always was a much bigger man.
B) "Vitali has a size advantage" that is an understatement. Vitali has 30pounds! on Ali. That is Ali who had to work against guys like Cooper, would face an ironjawed Vitaly 70pounds heavier than Cooper. It would not be a walk in the park.
C) I am saying that for any fighter if you are always the bigger taller reachier guy and the you face a much taller, much bigger guy you will have to really think and apply yourself.
I can see that Ali is a genious and he may invent something to deal w Vitaly, but I would bet on vitaly.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
It would be a good one regardless of the winner and of course if you're used to being the bigger man, fighting someone bigger would throw a wrench in you're game plan. I think the speed advantage of ali outweighs the reach advantage of vitali because he could move in quick, hit with the jab, and get out of the way b4 vitali connected with his. There weren't many shots that hit ali clean because he rolled with a lot of them. It would be one of the best heavyweight fights to see from a style perspective.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
It would be a good one regardless of the winner and of course if you're used to being the bigger man, fighting someone bigger would throw a wrench in you're game plan. I think the speed advantage of ali outweighs the reach advantage of vitali because he could move in quick, hit with the jab, and get out of the way b4 vitali connected with his. There weren't many shots that hit ali clean because he rolled with a lot of them. It would be one of the best heavyweight fights to see from a style perspective.
I agree. It would be amazingly thrilling to see what Ali would come up with. Knowing Ali, he would have thought deep and long about strategy. Completely amazing really. I am personally a tall guy and I honestly dont know what I would do against a guy who was taller; I mean Ali gets breathing room and scores safe points by his jabbing and bouncing away, but here he would have to get around vitaly's constant long lab. I fascinating meeting. I wonder what the odds would be. Am I in a minority going with VK?
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by plinden
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
It would be a good one regardless of the winner and of course if you're used to being the bigger man, fighting someone bigger would throw a wrench in you're game plan. I think the speed advantage of ali outweighs the reach advantage of vitali because he could move in quick, hit with the jab, and get out of the way b4 vitali connected with his. There weren't many shots that hit ali clean because he rolled with a lot of them. It would be one of the best heavyweight fights to see from a style perspective.
I agree. It would be amazingly thrilling to see what Ali would come up with. Knowing Ali, he would have thought deep and long about strategy. Completely amazing really. I am personally a tall guy and I honestly dont know what I would do against a guy who was taller; I mean Ali gets breathing room and scores safe points by his jabbing and bouncing away, but here he would have to get around vitaly's constant long lab. I fascinating meeting. I wonder what the odds would be. Am I in a minority going with VK?
Probably not. The votes on who would win could very well be 50/50. It's one that could be debated very well either way.
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by Lyle
Well ONE of the reasons Marciano beats Tyson is that Tyson beats 0 all-time great heavyweights.
Not ANY of these
Ali
Marciano
Louis
Liston
Dempsey
Johnson
Foreman
Frazier
Lewis
Bowe
Holyfield
Walcott
Charles
Holmes
But that is another discussion for another day
you have no fuking idea what ur talking about!! pleazze,marciano would be a light heavy by todays standards,he was way to small at 5`10 and 186 lbs, even tyson had an inch on him +an extra 30 odd lbs...tyson would kill him! as for the rest of ur list,prime tyson would beat all of them..not all by ko but young tyson had tones of stamina,hed go the distance under rooney no worries at all!
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65
Foreman wins with a 4th or 5th round knockout and Holyfield wins via 10th round knockout.
That’s exactly what my Crystal Ball said ! and don't forget Bowe in his prime would have canvassed the Russian also. Vitali had heart but not the over all skills that the Heavyweights in the early to mid 90's had. Back then they threw punches in bunches. and had more overall skills and arsenal available.. Today’s heavy’s are very one dimensional , stylistically today’s heavyweightfall in the (baby shit Green category.) to put it mildly. O0
a side note :
From a Technical standpoint Wlad could match the skill levels of those in the early 90’s however his Achilles heal would be his heart and ability to take a shot. I don’t see Wlad winning many WARS ! Wlad could still cash lots of checks , but when faced with a prime Holyfield or Bowe type fighter , guys that could take it, and come back, Wlad would be in big troubles !
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by stavros693000
you have no fuking idea what ur talking about!! pleazze,marciano would be a light heavy by todays standards,he was way to small at 5`10 and 186 lbs, even tyson had an inch on him +an extra 30 odd lbs...tyson would kill him! as for the rest of ur list,prime tyson would beat all of them..not all by ko but young tyson had tones of stamina,hed go the distance under rooney no worries at all!
Listen here HAPPY....Mike Tyson ain't great it doesn't matter how much you whack off to his fights in the 80's....look who he was taking out, Michael "Jack" Johnson...HA!
Rocky was 5'10 185-188 and a prime Mike Tyson was 5'11 220...I don't think it's CRAZY to think Rocky could take him
Look at Chris Byrd vs David Tua, Jack Dempsey-Jess Willard, Max Baer-Primo Carnera....the bigger guy doesn't always win....and neither does the more talented guy.
Mike Tyson had no heart at any time during his career
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
In all honest vitali would lose to either I think against george that big heavy jab of george would find its mark to often and klitchko would be out by 3-4. As long as holy boxes smart like he did holy bowe 2 he wins probably by late stoppage or ud, prime bowe was a hell of alot better than either klitchko... but I am inpressed with what steward has done wit vitali he is much improved... I love you my lezlie popinska
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
...NO WAY IN HELL HOLYFIELD STOPS VITALI!!!! Prime or anytime....Vitali AT LEAST goes the distance with Holyfield
...Wladimir is being trained by Manny Steward, Vitali was the one who fought Lennox Lewis! Your credibility just got all kinds of shot up
Re: vitali klitschko vs prime foreman + prime holy who wins ??
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
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Originally Posted by 1st rd ko
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Originally Posted by Lyle
I don't know if Vitali wins vs Prime Foreman ...he has a better shot vs Prime Holyfield
Yes Vitali was a lot bigger, yes his defense wasn't GREAT but he was awkward and hard to hit clean even if his defense sucked.
I don't want to go into size too terribly much because I still think Rocky Marciano beats Mike Tyson but if you look at the size difference between those two and the size different between Vitali and Foreman, Ali, Frazier, etc it's a lot greater.
That being said, if you asked Vitali this question he would probably say he would lose both fights
I tend to agree with you Lyle, but Marciano beats Tyson??? No way bro.
Marciano definitely beats tyson. Marciano threw the hardest punches to date for a heavyweight. Tyson was knocked almost senseless by Buster Douglas and Marciano was never floored for longer than a 5 count. When he got up from the very few times he was knocked down, he showed no dizziness and appeard to be completely there. Marciano wins with more power, a better chin, and not being intimidated by tyson's power.
Marciano by far is not the hardest puncher in HW history......There are a lot of guys who hit harder.....Tyson hit hard yes but Mike was never a 1 punch KO artist...Mike combined speed and Power...His combos are what got guy's....Funn thing about Tyson is all Mikes punchs had steam...Unlike most gus who throw a combo Usually one of the punchs are harder than the rest...Tyson hit with consisty he didn't throw just one bomb..they all had bad intentions...Get caught with one hard shot and there was no recovery time with mike...
As for guys who hit harder then Marciano..IMO......
Foreman ( Hardest Puncher P4P EVER!!!)
Dempsy--Another guy who never let up
V-Klitschko---His record speaks for itself
W-Klitschko...We are talking power not chins
Tua--Tuaman all time puncher...Just slow
Earnie Shavers--The acorn could crack
Ray Mercer---In his early years...cot much of a boxer but hell of a puncher...And Jaw
