Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
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Originally Posted by p4pking
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Originally Posted by amat
P4P deals with ability right? I know you have to have some names on the resume, but P4P deals with more of the talent thing. Because Oscar has been beaten way better fighters over the course of the career, and on the all time list of the GREATEST fighters, rather then BEST fighters, I have Oscar higher then I do Floyd.
And another thing, Taeth, when you rate P4P, you rate other's against THEIR ERA. That's how it works with all these list because we all know that any top 10 featherweight of today would beat Pep because the sport has evolved such. So you rate it against their era, otherwise the P4P list would almost be exclusive to the last 30 years.
And Robinson was basically perfect, there are clips of him, and there are writers who you have to put great stock into. Because, in that remarkable run of 96 straight undefeated fights, like 5 of those were even recorded. So it's a two way street, you're underrating him basing him off of fights that you saw when he was past the point to where people rate him number 1 P4P.
Anyways, like I was beginning to say, P4P was a term created for Robinson because of his amazing talent and up to that point, not the highest profile opposition. So Oscar has great wins, much greater then Floyd's and just about every single other person in all of boxing, but Floyd has better skills. So on the P4P list, Floyd is going to be very high. I have him somewhere in the top 10.
But on the list of the greatest fighters of all time, which deals more with quality of opposition and longgevity, and things like that, obviously Oscar is going to be ranked high. When I made my last list I think I had him high at number 18 or something like that. Floyd probably is not top 20 yet.
But this is P4P.
I completely agree...
But the thing is, that far too many peopel don't realize this. They literally think that SRR could have beaten say a Hopkins or even Hagler at middleweight. He couldn't have. No fucking chance.
Of all the ATGs Ray robinson is the one that quite possibly could even then if taken out of his era and dropped into modern boxing would most likely still become champ...ray robinson would easily beat b-hop....ray robinson was a stronger version of shane mosely...not to mention he would walk down most of the middleweights today and possibly kayo them late...did i forget to say that he fought for 0ver 25 years...in three different decades....besides b-hop is great but he was still just an interim MW champ because the real champ vacated the division ;)
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
I've been meaning to answer this question but needed time to think....
OK, here goes....
PBF somewhere between 45 - 55
ODLH somewhere between 55 - 65
:)
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
I've been meaning to answer this question but needed time to think....
OK, here goes....
PBF somewhere between 45 - 55
ODLH somewhere between 55 - 65
:)
I like your assesment Mick ;)
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
I think Floyd is higher up than some of you guys give him credit for. He surely has to be knocking on the top 20 now when you consider that such distinguished panels as Ring Magaizne have Roberto Duran and Pernell Whittaker in their top 10 all times.
Floyd really isn't that far behind those guys imo, I mean let's be serious for a minute he's a world champ in 5 weight divisions and has never lost a fight. Ok so he hasn't got the legendary names on his record but give him time he's still barely 30 years old and future wins over Mosely and Cotto would put him into the top 10 imo.
I find it ironic that almost everyone rates Sweet Pea so highly, like top 5 of all time to some people yet his record really isn't really any better than Floyds. Fair enough his first defeat in his first title shot was probably a robbery but even accounting for that he didn't do anything that Floyd hasn't done.
He was a world champ in 4 weight classes and got decision wins over Azumah Nelson, Buddy McGirt and should have beat Chavez.
Thats a great record but Floyd is already world champ in 5 weight classes and has wins over Corrales, Castillo twice and De La Hoya, and all three of these fighters could be Hall of Famers in the future also.
If he were to go on and maybe beat Oscar a second time and beat Mosely then you would have to argue that his record, with remaining undefeated would be every bit as impressive as Pernell's.
Only hating can convince otherwise.
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I think Floyd is higher up than some of you guys give him credit for. He surely has to be knocking on the top 20 now when you consider that such distinguished panels as Ring Magaizne have Roberto Duran and Pernell Whittaker in their top 10 all times.
Floyd really isn't that far behind those guys imo, I mean let's be serious for a minute he's a world champ in 5 weight divisions and has never lost a fight. Ok so he hasn't got the legendary names on his record but give him time he's still barely 30 years old and future wins over Mosely and Cotto would put him into the top 10 imo.
I find it ironic that almost everyone rates Sweet Pea so highly, like top 5 of all time to some people yet his record really isn't really any better than Floyds. Fair enough his first defeat in his first title shot was probably a robbery but even accounting for that he didn't do anything that Floyd hasn't done.
He was a world champ in 4 weight classes and got decision wins over Azumah Nelson, Buddy McGirt and should have beat Chavez.
Thats a great record but Floyd is already world champ in 5 weight classes and has wins over Corrales, Castillo twice and De La Hoya, and all three of these fighters could be Hall of Famers in the future also.
If he were to go on and maybe beat Oscar a second time and beat Mosely then you would have to argue that his record, with remaining undefeated would be every bit as impressive as Pernell's.
Only hating can convince otherwise.
I am probably the biggest Floyd fan on Saddo's and the only critisism I have is that, he has to settle down anf unify a division whether its 140-154. but Floyd has to make a division his 1st before he cracks the top 10...
I rated him like Mick 45-55 but with every good wins he advances with leaps and bounds ;)
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
I've been meaning to answer this question but needed time to think....
OK, here goes....
PBF somewhere between 45 - 55
ODLH somewhere between 55 - 65
:)
Excellent Mick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I think Floyd is higher up than some of you guys give him credit for. He surely has to be knocking on the top 20 now when you consider that such distinguished panels as Ring Magaizne have Roberto Duran and Pernell Whittaker in their top 10 all times.
Floyd really isn't that far behind those guys imo, I mean let's be serious for a minute he's a world champ in 5 weight divisions and has never lost a fight. Ok so he hasn't got the legendary names on his record but give him time he's still barely 30 years old and future wins over Mosely and Cotto would put him into the top 10 imo.
I find it ironic that almost everyone rates Sweet Pea so highly, like top 5 of all time to some people yet his record really isn't really any better than Floyds. Fair enough his first defeat in his first title shot was probably a robbery but even accounting for that he didn't do anything that Floyd hasn't done.
He was a world champ in 4 weight classes and got decision wins over Azumah Nelson, Buddy McGirt and should have beat Chavez.
Thats a great record but Floyd is already world champ in 5 weight classes and has wins over Corrales, Castillo twice and De La Hoya, and all three of these fighters could be Hall of Famers in the future also.
If he were to go on and maybe beat Oscar a second time and beat Mosely then you would have to argue that his record, with remaining undefeated would be every bit as impressive as Pernell's.
Only hating can convince otherwise.
Way way off. Firstly,you have huge Mayweather fans like Sweetpea saying he's not as high,are they hating? Secondly, aren't you such a strong advocate of the RING magazine titles? Floyd hasnt held 5 of those,hell who even bothered paying attention to the paper titles he beat Oscar for?
And to compare Castillo Corrales etc is ridiculous when you yourself admit he should got the W over Chavez. A Chavez who was what 88-0? One of the greatest of all time. That "win" alone is better than anything on Floyds record then there are the other highly rated fighters around at the time. Guys like Mcgrit,Haugen,Ramirez,Azumah Nelson,Vazquez,pINEDA ETC ETC a whole host of fighters who were young hungry,undefeated. He stood in front of De La Hoya,was coming towards the end of his career and still won in my and most others opinions. His only 2 legit losses were at the tail end of his career.
Wins over Corrales,Castillo,and De La Hoya,DO NOT make you a top 10 ATG fighter!!!
CC JT in 24. Good to hear from a Mayweather fan who speaks the truth. Youre right,the more he fights guys like Mosley etc,the higher he'll go. He could be top 10,but NO WAY not yet. Could you imagine 147 with alllll those top fighters,not being cleaned out by a SRL,Hearns etc.
*fixed for ya' Gamo...
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
Gamo I fixed your post since your replies were left inside Bilbos post. ;)
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Gamo I fixed your post since your replies were left inside Bilbos post. ;)
Thanks my man, owe you 2 CC's now! :D
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I think Floyd is higher up than some of you guys give him credit for. He surely has to be knocking on the top 20 now when you consider that such distinguished panels as Ring Magaizne have Roberto Duran and Pernell Whittaker in their top 10 all times.
Floyd really isn't that far behind those guys imo, I mean let's be serious for a minute he's a world champ in 5 weight divisions and has never lost a fight. Ok so he hasn't got the legendary names on his record but give him time he's still barely 30 years old and future wins over Mosely and Cotto would put him into the top 10 imo.
I find it ironic that almost everyone rates Sweet Pea so highly, like top 5 of all time to some people yet his record really isn't really any better than Floyds. Fair enough his first defeat in his first title shot was probably a robbery but even accounting for that he didn't do anything that Floyd hasn't done.
He was a world champ in 4 weight classes and got decision wins over Azumah Nelson, Buddy McGirt and should have beat Chavez.
Thats a great record but Floyd is already world champ in 5 weight classes and has wins over Corrales, Castillo twice and De La Hoya, and all three of these fighters could be Hall of Famers in the future also.
If he were to go on and maybe beat Oscar a second time and beat Mosely then you would have to argue that his record, with remaining undefeated would be every bit as impressive as Pernell's.
Only hating can convince otherwise.
Way way off. Firstly,you have huge Mayweather fans like Sweetpea saying he's not as high,are they hating? Secondly, aren't you such a strong advocate of the RING magazine titles? Floyd hasnt held 5 of those,hell who even bothered paying attention to the paper titles he beat Oscar for?
And to compare Castillo Corrales etc is ridiculous when you yourself admit he should got the W over Chavez. A Chavez who was what 88-0? One of the greatest of all time. That "win" alone is better than anything on Floyds record then there are the other highly rated fighters around at the time. Guys like Mcgrit,Haugen,Ramirez,Azumah Nelson,Vazquez,pINEDA ETC ETC a whole host of fighters who were young hungry,undefeated. He stood in front of De La Hoya,was coming towards the end of his career and still won in my and most others opinions. His only 2 legit losses were at the tail end of his career.
Wins over Corrales,Castillo,and De La Hoya,DO NOT make you a top 10 ATG fighter!!!
Gamo already correctly answered most of this, but just to chip in myself....
I'm a huge Floyd fan, as big of a Floyd fan as you'll find here, but he is still nowhere near the career accomplishments of Pernell Whitaker's. Do they have similarities in talent and style? Ya sure. But Floyd has not proven yet that he should be mentioned in the same sentence as Pernell.
By the age of 30, Pernell had been the Undisputed Lightweight Champ (which only a handful of fighters has ever done) and he had won titles at 140, 147, and was just about to win a belt at 154.
He had beaten Jose Luis Ramirez, Azumah Nelson, Rafael Pineda, Buddy McGirt (twice), Julio Cesar Chavez, etc. Nelson was better than anyone Floyd beat at 135, Pineda was better than anyone Floyd beat at 140, McGirt and Chavez were both better than anyone Floyd beat at 147... you get the picture...
Also, it's very hard to evaluate how good a fighter really is until he starts to lose his skills. At 33, Pernell had lost a ton of speed and movement, and yet he still was able to fight well enough against a physically prime Oscar that many people think Whitaker won that fight.
We won't know how good Floyd really is until he starts to lose his great physical skills.
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
aWESOME posting again Sweetpea,CC in 24. You said everything I wanted to say but in a much more covincing fashion. Great posting.
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
I have DLH around 40-45 mark and PBF in the top 25 more due to the fact he has not been defeated and has titles in every division he has fought in...The quality of hiss opp keeps him that low on the list...He has good names but does not have those all time great fights....He and DLH blew the chance to make a moment in the sports history but they both blew it....
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
odlh at uhh... uhh. mmm. 33
pbf he has 22 if he really retire say at 29
but i wanna see floyd go against mosely more than cotto and hatton
Re: Where do you have PBF and Oscar in your all time P4P list??
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Originally Posted by shza
I really don't think Oscar belongs anywhere in the top 50. of all time? seriously? he's not even top 5 of his generation. Floyd, Winky, B-Hop, RJJ, and James Toney are all better than Oscar.
I agree with what you said except for the Winky and Toney part. Oscar is not top 30 I do not think since as time goes by it gets harder and harder to get in the top 30, but Winky and Toney are not really that high on the list either.
