Is Evander Holyfield the greatest heavyweight since Ali?

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Originally Posted by amat

That's pretty much a bullshit quote though because past 1994 and the Toney and Hopkins wins, the only fighters to emerge and do pretty good were Clinton Woods and Antonio Tarver.

Holmes' competition was weak, there is no doubt about it. He pretty much had an extended Floyd Patterson like run going there. Not saying he isn't talented because there is an argument that he is one of the more talented heavyweights ever, but BEST and GREATEST are two completely separate things in my eyes. Holmes could be the BEST, but doesn't make the boat as the GREATEST.

This is pretty much a two horse race in my eyes. Lewis and Holyfield are right up in the same echelon as far as heavyweights go. I think both are on the doorstep or just inside as two of the 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. Lewis was simply dominant in a good era, came back from being written off as pretty much a bust, was slammed by his own trainer and then comes back to become a great fighter. Not many people acknowledge it, but Lennox had to have heart to come back from all that.

But Holyfield, he's been consistently at the top for a very long time now and now he's back yet again. If he wins a title, which is not by any means out of the question, then I would say he has to be the greatest heavyweight of the last 30 years. It was 20 years ago he beat Qawi the second time, and 18 years since he became a contender with the win over Dokes.

With the exception of the last 4 years, he's been at the top of the division the whole way through. I think he's definitely earned the crown of greatest heavyweight of the last 30 years.

I have disliked everything he's done past the Toney fight, I saw him working the heavybag for his comeback and it was just depressing. But he's doing good, and while a win over Savarese doesn't mean anything in the overall scope of things as far as the title picture goes, it's a good win. I'm rooting for him to get a title shot against anyone not named Wladimir or Samuel.

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Good posting my man :coolclick: although I have absolutely no idea what the relevance of mentioning Tarver and Clinton Woods was to this debate ???

I meant to quote the post of Trainer Monkey where he quoted RJJ, saying "They weren't bad, I just made them look bad", well I didn't think that was the case at all with RJJ, Holmes or Tyson for that matter.

Also, how long before you edit Evander's name to be spelled right in the title :P

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Originally Posted by amat

I meant to quote the post of Trainer Monkey where he quoted RJJ, saying "They weren't bad, I just made them look bad", well I didn't think that was the case at all with RJJ, Holmes or Tyson for that matter.

Also, how long before you edit Evander's name to be spelled right in the title :P

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Also, how long before you edit Holyfield's name to be spelled right in the title. ;)

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Originally Posted by amat

I meant to quote the post of Trainer Monkey where he quoted RJJ, saying "They weren't bad, I just made them look bad", well I didn't think that was the case at all with RJJ, Holmes or Tyson for that matter.

Also, how long before you edit Evander's name to be spelled right in the title :P

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Its truer with Holmes then it is for Jones really
Numerous Holmes opponents would stay in the mix for years after he beat them

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Originally Posted by amat

I meant to quote the post of Trainer Monkey where he quoted RJJ, saying "They weren't bad, I just made them look bad", well I didn't think that was the case at all with RJJ, Holmes or Tyson for that matter.

Also, how long before you edit Evander's name to be spelled right in the title :P

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lol I never even noticed, I'll correct it now. :P

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by woodzo

for one second im not doubting evanders fighting resume because it is certainly outstanding but i do think there is a double standard when comparing one boxer to another people like Lou Savarese, i mean people are saying its a good win, fair does but tyson never gets props for destroying this guy when talking about records

same goes for Larry Holmes wasnt he past it in the tyson fight??? people are quick to jump in saying tyson fought nobodys but still add the same names to evanders record as some sort of great accomplishment

Alex Stewart
James Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Mike spinks

the on top of that mike fought people like
Trevor Berbick
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Frank Bruno
Carl Williams
Donovan Ruddock
Francois Botha


who are jus as if not better then a lot of the fighters on holyfields record,, i dont mean for this to sound like im hating on holyfield cos im not he is a great, i just think its a bit wrong to compare him to ali,frazier, prob even foreman & a prime tyson (not for accomplishments more on boxing strengths)

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There is no doubt Tyson was spectacular in destroying B- level fighters but he never beat a legitimate A lister, unless you count the much smaller Spinks and the much older Holmes.

The fact he came up short 3 times against elite competition is a permanent blot on his record.

I still believe Tyson is an all time great but for me Lewis, Holmes and Hoylfield all rank above him.

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Bilbo I agree. Mike really folded up in fights when he was not dominating. He had the typical bully mentality. Lewis had a weak chin but his right hand really made up for that. Holmes was great and Holyfield was great but no power.. And the lack of power and struggling in fights and loses to Bowe by knockout and Moorer by decision when Moorer really was never a great heavyweight puts Evander down on the list in my mind. Lennox would have never had trouble with Moorer.

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by woodzo

for one second im not doubting evanders fighting resume because it is certainly outstanding but i do think there is a double standard when comparing one boxer to another people like Lou Savarese, i mean people are saying its a good win, fair does but tyson never gets props for destroying this guy when talking about records

same goes for Larry Holmes wasnt he past it in the tyson fight??? people are quick to jump in saying tyson fought nobodys but still add the same names to evanders record as some sort of great accomplishment

Alex Stewart
James Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Mike spinks

the on top of that mike fought people like
Trevor Berbick
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Frank Bruno
Carl Williams
Donovan Ruddock
Francois Botha


who are jus as if not better then a lot of the fighters on holyfields record,, i dont mean for this to sound like im hating on holyfield cos im not he is a great, i just think its a bit wrong to compare him to ali,frazier, prob even foreman & a prime tyson (not for accomplishments more on boxing strengths)

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There is no doubt Tyson was spectacular in destroying B- level fighters but he never beat a legitimate A lister, unless you count the much smaller Spinks and the much older Holmes.

The fact he came up short 3 times against elite competition is a permanent blot on his record.

I still believe Tyson is an all time great but for me Lewis, Holmes and Hoylfield all rank above him.

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Bilbo I agree. Mike really folded up in fights when he was not dominating. He had the typical bully mentality. Lewis had a weak chin but his right hand really made up for that. Holmes was great and Holyfield was great but no power.. And the lack of power and struggling in fights and loses to Bowe by knockout and Moorer by decision when Moorer really was never a great heavyweight puts Evander down on the list in my mind. Lennox would have never had trouble with Moorer.

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Well Evander would never get KO'd by Rahman and McCall.

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Originally Posted by woodzo

for one second im not doubting evanders fighting resume because it is certainly outstanding but i do think there is a double standard when comparing one boxer to another people like Lou Savarese, i mean people are saying its a good win, fair does but tyson never gets props for destroying this guy when talking about records

same goes for Larry Holmes wasnt he past it in the tyson fight??? people are quick to jump in saying tyson fought nobodys but still add the same names to evanders record as some sort of great accomplishment

Alex Stewart
James Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Mike spinks

the on top of that mike fought people like
Trevor Berbick
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Frank Bruno
Carl Williams
Donovan Ruddock
Francois Botha


who are jus as if not better then a lot of the fighters on holyfields record,, i dont mean for this to sound like im hating on holyfield cos im not he is a great, i just think its a bit wrong to compare him to ali,frazier, prob even foreman & a prime tyson (not for accomplishments more on boxing strengths)

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Alex Stewart was decent but he froze when anyone rushed him and he was scared to death of Tyson.

James Tillis was a journeyman pure and simple nothing else he was decent hw but he was journeyman and still gave Tyson all he could handle.

Marvin Frazier are you kidding ??

Pinklon Thomas just got out of rehab if i remember right he wasn't the same.

Tony Tubbs was well out of shape and only had 2 weeks to train.

Michael Spinks Tysons best win but Spinks only got the belt getting gift decision off fading Holmes but still was good win.

Trevor Berbick got koed in first round before he met Tyson lost every round to Holmes and alo struggled with a brain damaged 40 year old Ali.

Tony Tucker was decent hw but his only good win before meeting Tyson was Douglas who at that time was considered really nothing and Tucker was behind when Douglas just quit.

Tyrell Biggs had some good skills but he had badly weak chin and was never that good really he was sort of boxer that would give good showing but he was no world beater.

Frank Bruno was dangerous puncher but lacked survival instinct and never was quite elite but i consider this good win for Tyson because Bruno had showed good showings when he was ahead vs Bonecrusher Witherspoon and Lewis.

Carl Williams is exactly like Biggs had good skills but had badly weak chin and was never elite and would give decent showings but was never world beater.

Razor Ruddock was dangerous puncher like Bruno but his defence uhh actually he had no defence and his punches were wild swinging punches Ruddock was decent sized hw with dangerous punch but he never had no real workrate and was lazy plus never had no defence.

Botha well what can i say he was an ok fighter i suppose but thats it ok he has never beaten one good name.

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

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Originally Posted by woodzo

for one second im not doubting evanders fighting resume because it is certainly outstanding but i do think there is a double standard when comparing one boxer to another people like Lou Savarese, i mean people are saying its a good win, fair does but tyson never gets props for destroying this guy when talking about records

same goes for Larry Holmes wasnt he past it in the tyson fight??? people are quick to jump in saying tyson fought nobodys but still add the same names to evanders record as some sort of great accomplishment

Alex Stewart
James Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Mike spinks

the on top of that mike fought people like
Trevor Berbick
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Frank Bruno
Carl Williams
Donovan Ruddock
Francois Botha


who are jus as if not better then a lot of the fighters on holyfields record,, i dont mean for this to sound like im hating on holyfield cos im not he is a great, i just think its a bit wrong to compare him to ali,frazier, prob even foreman & a prime tyson (not for accomplishments more on boxing strengths)

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Alex Stewart was decent but he froze when anyone rushed him and he was scared to death of Tyson.

James Tillis was a journeyman pure and simple nothing else he was decent hw but he was journeyman and still gave Tyson all he could handle.

Marvin Frazier are you kidding ??

Pinklon Thomas just got out of rehab if i remember right he wasn't the same.

Tony Tubbs was well out of shape and only had 2 weeks to train.

Michael Spinks Tysons best win but Spinks only got the belt getting gift decision off fading Holmes but still was good win.

Trevor Berbick got koed in first round before he met Tyson lost every round to Holmes and alo struggled with a brain damaged 40 year old Ali.

Tony Tucker was decent hw but his only good win before meeting Tyson was Douglas who at that time was considered really nothing and Tucker was behind when Douglas just quit.

Tyrell Biggs had some good skills but he had badly weak chin and was never that good really he was sort of boxer that would give good showing but he was no world beater.

Frank Bruno was dangerous puncher but lacked survival instinct and never was quite elite but i consider this good win for Tyson because Bruno had showed good showings when he was ahead vs Bonecrusher Witherspoon and Lewis.

Carl Williams is exactly like Biggs had good skills but had badly weak chin and was never elite and would give decent showings but was never world beater.

Razor Ruddock was dangerous puncher like Bruno but his defence uhh actually he had no defence and his punches were wild swinging punches Ruddock was decent sized hw with dangerous punch but he never had no real workrate and was lazy plus never had no defence.

Botha well what can i say he was an ok fighter i suppose but thats it ok he has never beaten one good name.

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Ummm Ice
Its Marvis,and he only has two losses on his record,Tyson and Holmes

Comes in third behind Holmes and Tyson for me, considering his size he has done remarkably well.
He couldn't handle the size of Bowe and had a gift draw against Lewis but his second fight with Lewis was a superb effort with no reward. He schooled Tyson, Holmes was by far the best Heavyweight since Ali.

I'd say Lewis was. A great technician of a boxer who dominated his era and he did beat Holyfield twice while Holyfield still had his natural abilities at a high level.

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Originally Posted by Punching Princess

Evander is second. Lennox is number one. In my opinion Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight since Larry Holmes. Tyson was the main for for quite sometime but mostly in his younger days. I am going with longevity.

Evander is what every heavyweight should be though. Heart and dedication wise. He has great skills or had I should say. With Evander Holyfield his accomplishments speak for themselves

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Lewis got screwed the in the first fight with Holyfield which is why they gave him the second fight, which I had Evander ahead in. Holyfield has won the heavyweight title 4 times and may even win it a fifth time before we see the last of him. He fought better opposition than Lennox Lewis, whupping up on Mike Tyson back when he was still dangerous to be in the ring with (by the time Lewis got in there with him, Tyson was a very very safe bet). Based on that, plus the fact that Holyfield is a pretty small heavyweight (many liked to refer to him as a "blown up cruiserweight") gaining his momentum and place in history during a time when the 'super heavyweights' were beginning to rise in the division and 6'4+ 255 lb+ monsters began becoming the norm. Based on that, I rank him ahead of Lennox Lewis. He is obviously ahead of Tyson based on the outcome of their confrontations. Foreman's comeback was legendary but was halted for the time being when he fought Evander Holyfield, and many experts; including Teddy Atlas, believe that the older, calculating, pace-maintaining Foreman was a tougher and better fighter than the George Foreman 5-round wrecking machine of old. I would have loved to see a prime Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield go at it, I think it would have been a great fight but I think Holyfield would prove stronger down the stretch and take the win over Holmes, probably easier than he did against the older version because young Larry would come at him harder and more aggressively and Evander always fought better when his opponents pressured him and brought the fight to him. I can even see him getting stopped by "The Real Deal". There was no one like Evander during Larry Holmes' reign as champion.

No doubt in my mind. Evander Holyfield is the best heavyweight since Muhammad Ali.

If and its a big if ,
If Evander was a natural heavy (started at lightheavy) then i think he is unbeatable in his prime ;D
but id say Lewis was the best

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

If and its a big if ,
If Evander was a natural heavy (started at lightheavy) then i think he is unbeatable in his prime ;D
but id say Lewis was the best

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I agree.. And do you guys notice how robotic Vlad is compared to Lennox? Lennox was just more versatile and a better fighter than Vlad. He would have stopped Brewster in 2 rounds. Vlad is big and strong and no one can walk in without getting hammered. Good strategy which will only work for so long.

Holyfield is'nt the best heavyweight since Ali one of the things that put Holyfields name up their was his trilogy with Bowe and he lost 2 of them and he is only 4 time champ because he won vacant belt because Lennox was stripped so he was'nt really champ.