This is the future of the US........

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Lyle

The US is a great place to run a business because we have low taxes, a large workforce, people willing to work more than 30 hours a week and not riot, AND we have personal accountability ie if you don't do your job you get fired......Unions of course try to change all of that and they are the reason illegal immigration continues: The democrats want to feed the Unions new members and the Republicans want to drive them out of the business entirely by lowering wages.

AMERICANS dislike ILLEGAL immigrants.....regular people who move to the US and become citizens are celebrated here.


Illegals break the law coming to this country, they use services they do not pay for, I am 100% certain Mr. Martinez is in the minority of illegals when you state that he pays all the taxes and how convieniant to cite someone who is illegal and yet he's still here in the US BITCHING about paying taxes....why doesn't he learn english and go through the naturalization process like a REAL US CITIZEN.

Seven million is pocket change considering this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug25.html

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1490.cfm
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...rch_localcosts


Keep it coming, ILLEGALS are no good for the American citizen

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More nonsensical ranting. The US is a great place for business because it's the world's biggest marketplace and there's a huge unregulated labour market to employ from. Unions are almost nonexistent in America now, and the jobs illegals do in America are almost all in nonunionised sectors.


Studies by anti-immigration groups in your links mean as much as me posting studies by pro-immigration groups -- they're just a bunch of cherry-picked factlets stiched together to make a case.

Illegals contribute seven billion a year in ss taxes -- that's billion with a "b".



The US economy relies on mass immigration to keep going.


The only reason illegals are illegal is the GOP has been able to use immigration as a political football for decades to get ignorant dummies to vote for them. Now that they need the Hispanic vote to remain competetive in national elections, they're going to have to do what the Democrats have wanted to for decades, which means bring in a legal immigration programme to allow US businesses the quantity of labour it needs. Then they'll all be legal taxpayers and you won't have any excuse for bashing them, although facts and evidence clearly don't matter to you so I'm sure you'll keep on keeping on.

My advice to you is to go back to school or work harder, then you'll be part of the America that most feels the benefit from mass immigration. It may ease the hatred a little bit. You need to understand that if immigration was a net loss to the US there'd have been an impenetrable barrier along the southern border for a century now. But it's a net gain so mass immigration is only going to continue -- the US population will soar over 450 million by 2050. To avoid getting even more bitter and twisted and to share in America's future economic success, get yourself back to school and increase your earning power.

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I don't know where you get your facts from but UAW and the Teamsters ALONE could strike and cripple the US economy....but since Unions aren't big here I guess that doesn't matter.

My earning power is just fine and my schooling is just fine....I only worry about my taxes and why the rule of law is not being enforced.

But I suppose illegals are so fucking great because you say so and America will be better for having a bunch of people who can't even read and write in spanish much less english working and not paying taxes and leeching off of regular US citizens ....that'll cause everything to be great in the future, maybe then we can solve some real problems like world peace.

English style socialism isn't going to fly over here so don't even try to preach it to me....all this liberalism creates is DEPENDENCE ON THE GOVERNMENT and that in turn causes super high taxes and I want no part of either of them

The Heritage Foundation is hardly an anti-immigration group, anti-ILLEGAL immigration maybe but EVERYONE should be against that maybe because it's against the law.....same with the Fair Tax group.....and the Washington Post is a reliable source as well.

And what's this "undocumented worker" pc bullshit???? They are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS they don't want to become American, they don't want to learn English, they don't give a shit about America and yeah plenty of people have issue with that, and they aren't dolts or morons, they are regular everyday hard working Americans who take some pride in their country.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

The Heritage Foundation is hardly an anti-immigration group, anti-ILLEGAL immigration maybe but EVERYONE should be against that maybe because it's against the law.....same with the Fair Tax group.....and the Washington Post is a reliable source as well.

And what's this "undocumented worker" pc bullshit???? They are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS they don't want to become American, they don't want to learn English, they don't give a S*** about America and yeah plenty of people have issue with that, and they aren't dolts or morons, they are regular everyday hard working Americans who take some pride in their country.

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You are right Lyle they don't take pride in this country and they didn't build this country or it's economy but they think they are entitled to all that it offers that's why they break into the US and then have the nerve to march in protest like we owe them something or it's their God given right to be here, well they are entitled to nothing.

...is it too much to ask that they do what other people have done? Become naturalized, pay taxes, be a part of the culture.



Don't you wonder how Mexico would treat US citizens going there illegally?

Insted of the mexican governmet trying to help their poor they are forcing them on us Americans to give them everything that the mexican government wont therefor damageing our future for which we Americans have worked so hard secure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eK85hG0jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvm4A9IZytM

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Originally Posted by Lyle

The Heritage Foundation is hardly an anti-immigration group, anti-ILLEGAL immigration maybe but EVERYONE should be against that maybe because it's against the law.....same with the Fair Tax group.....and the Washington Post is a reliable source as well.

And what's this "undocumented worker" pc bullshit???? They are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS they don't want to become American, they don't want to learn English, they don't give a shit about America and yeah plenty of people have issue with that, and they aren't dolts or morons, they are regular everyday hard working Americans who take some pride in their country.

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OK, I'm going to try and pick the salient points out of all that ranting and reply to them. The main thing that bothers you seems to be increases in your taxes, so let's look in detail at increases in your taxes over the past couple of decades and how your tax situation looks over the next couple.

In 1981 when Reagan made his famous Tax Cut, tax revenues collapsed. So to make up the difference, Reagan set out a plan to increase Social Security taxes so that the extra revenue could be transferred to balance the books. So, a tax that falls mainly on low and middle-earning people, (SS taxes are only levied on the first $95000 of yearly income) was increased by 3.3% to cover tax breaks for the richest 1%. Reagan simply reduced taxes for top earners, and transferred the taxes to low/middle income earners. So, 3.3% of every dollar of the first $95000 you've earned every year since 1983 is a Reagan Tax Increase levied to pay the income tax breaks of the top 1%.

Reagan also increased taxes every year in office after that too, including the biggest single tax increase in history. And all those tax increases transferred the tax burden away from the top 1% to low/middle income earners. But I'm guessing the payroll tax is something you can relate too.

Reagan had to increase taxes every year because of the collapse in revenues caused by his tax cuts but still ran up huge budget deficits. Bill Clinton then came along and over eight years managed to wipe out the federal budget deficit and put it in surplus for the first time in generations.

The George Bush came along and offered more tax cuts. He said that his cuts would increase revenues despite what happened when Reagan tried it. Here's what happened :

Tax revenues have always doubled every ten years, which helps them just about keep pace with inflation and increased spending. Inflation and spending are increasing hugely under Bush, so we'd better hope those tax cuts are boosting revenues for the future, right? Let's look at the numbers, with historical numbers included for a bit of context :

In 1950 we had $45 billion in revenues, which jumped to $91 by 1960. The link only shows from 1962, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

From $91 billion in 1960, we jumped to $192 billion in 1970.

In 1980, revenues jumped to a massive $517 billion, although the extra revenue was inflation caused by two disastrous external oil price spikes beyond our control.

By 1990, revenues had jumped from $517 to $1032 billion, again doubling.

In 2000, revenues had doubled again from $1032 to $2025.

Bush's 2001 tax cut was backdated to Q1 2001, so the cut was in place from the first day of fiscal year 2001. So by 2005, we should have been looking at revenues in the region of $3000 billion plus the extra revenue growth from the tax cuts, right?

Here are the numbers :

2000 : $2025

Bush tax cut

2001 : $1991

2002 : $1853

2003 : $1782

2004 : $1880

2005 : $2153


Here are the numbers for income tax, the tax that is supposed to grow the most in response to a cut :

1960 : $41.7 billion

1970 : $90.4

1980 : $244.1

1990 : $466.9

2000 : $1004.5

Bush tax cut

2001 : $994.3

2002 : $858.3

Bush tax cut

2003 : $793.7

2004 : $809.0

2005 : $927.2

2006 : $1043.9


http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.shtml



So instead of hitting $4000 billion in revenues by the end of the decade, we're looking at over a trillion dollars a year shortfall. In a $13 trillion economy that's a big chunk of money. Obviously, taxes are going to go through the roof soon to cover that 25% revenue shortfall.

Can you guess who'll be paying that extra trillion a year, the top 1% who've doubled their share of the national income since 1980, or low/middle income earners, hmmmm?

To give you a clue let's look at what's happened to your payroll taxes since 1982. The money went straight to the General Fund (where income tax revenues are placed) to make up the shortfall there and inreturn US government bonds to the same value were placed in a Social Security fund. The thinking was that when the SS fund needed to cash those bonds to help pay for the baby boomers' retirement then the income tax payers in the General Fund would pay their debts. Now here's George Bush on that :

Bush: Social Security trust fund ‘just IOUs’
President says, ‘There is no trust fund’


PARKERSBURG, W.Va. - President Bush on Tuesday used a four-drawer filing cabinet stuffed with paper representing government IOUs that he said symbolized the Social Security trust fund’s bleak outlook for meeting Americans’ future retirement needs.
“A lot of people in America think there is a trust — that we take your money in payroll taxes and then we hold it for you and then when you retire, we give it back to you,” Bush said in a speech at the University of West Virginia at Parkersburg.
“But that’s not the way it works,” Bush said. “There is no trust ‘fund’ — just IOUs that I saw firsthand,” Bush said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7393649/


So you can guess who's going to be paying back the trillion dollars a year, right?

And you're still worried about three or four billion a year for Undocumenteds, despite the fact that they grow the economy so fast and keep inflation down by untold more billions than this every year?

How about Bush invading Iraq, costing you five billion a week and all he's managed to do is hand the country over to a government of Iranian-backed terrorists? Does it bother you that trillions of your taxes and thousands of American lives have already gone and that the US army is fighting and dying to keep a government of Iranian-backed terrorists in power?

The Heritage Foundation and organisation like it exist to push the buttons of unknowledgeable Americans to support the aims of the billionaires who fund these foundations and think tanks. The Heritage people will also tell you that tax cuts increase tax revenues, but no reputable economist in the world agrees with them and the numbers above kinda prove them wrong on that, don't they? So even if these groups are right and illegals cost ten billion a year, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the amounts you're being shafted with by the GOP, isn't it?


Now instead of running away from answering my posts and just ranting, can you reply to the questions in the last few paragraphs please?

.....with payroll taxes those are taxes the company fills out for the government......if someone is being paid in cash then they are off the books and therefore not subject to payroll taxes and yes that is illegal but let's figure out where these ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS work.....do they work for big business? do they work for S&P 500 companies? NO they pick fruit and veggies and they are janitors and they do menial tasks sometimes they only work part time jobs and therefore they are an easy population to sweep under the rug and away from the government's prying eyes.

#1 America has been in debt for my entire life and will be in debt long after I die, if you have a solution please write it down and send it in I am sure that the politicians who do all this pork barrel spending will budget better after you talk with them.

The average LEGAL US RESIDENT will pay back the debt if it is paid back at all....this is a cause of why jobs go to China as they buy up our debt and hold it over our heads and so now we have toys with lead paint and so on.

#2 This issue is about illegal immigration and not the war in Iraq. Yes the Iraq war has been a catastrophe so far but it takes time to have significant political gains in a country that is so fucking backwards.....and that might not be PC to say it but it's the truth....A great man once said "So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are." and it's as true now as it was when T.E. Lawrence said it.

And as much as people bitch about Iraq doing nothing about the situation between the Sunni and Shii'a and the Muslims and the Israelis didn't work either so trying something is better than doing nothing.

#3 The Heritage Foundation is an organization built to provide answers to political issues and it worked well for Ronald Reagan. Say what you will about his economy but he had to take over from JIMMY CARTER who drove America into the dirt....it's a hard job to right the ship once it's that far off course. He won the Cold War where's the thanks for that?....and don't say Gorby did the deed with his programs those would have been ineffective had Reagan not held strong with his policies. Reagan made Americans happy and proud to be Americans, and yes there is a drop off once government funding for everything under the sun is cut off....farmers were hurt and jobs were lost and there was a tough spot in 1980 where it looked like we were headed towards another depression but he pulled us out of it and his approval ratings dwarf anyone elses...even Bill Clinton's! He won by 80%...he was the last President that won an election by a majority, so let's not go crazy condeming the guy he was a damned good president and he did it all while being shot and nearly dying and dealing with Alzheimer's.


George W. Bush has not followed the conservative game plan, the government is bigger than ever and the spending is crazy, you are not going to get any arguement about that from me.

I guess my answers will be ridiculed and more questions will be asked and more numbers will be brought up because people hate conservatives when they don't understand the ideas behind tax cuts and the hatred of welfare and why wars sometimes need to be fought and how mistakes can be turned right in time.

For me Illegal immigrants = bad and I am not alone.


Now KL answer my question, where are you from?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

.....with payroll taxes those are taxes the company fills out for the government......if someone is being paid in cash then they are off the books and therefore not subject to payroll taxes and yes that is illegal but let's figure out where these ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS work.....do they work for big business? do they work for S&P 500 companies? NO they pick fruit and veggies and they are janitors and they do menial tasks sometimes they only work part time jobs and therefore they are an easy population to sweep under the rug and away from the government's prying eyes.

#1 America has been in debt for my entire life and will be in debt long after I die, if you have a solution please write it down and send it in I am sure that the politicians who do all this pork barrel spending will budget better after you talk with them.

The average LEGAL US RESIDENT will pay back the debt if it is paid back at all....this is a cause of why jobs go to China as they buy up our debt and hold it over our heads and so now we have toys with lead paint and so on.

#2 This issue is about illegal immigration and not the war in Iraq. Yes the Iraq war has been a catastrophe so far but it takes time to have significant political gains in a country that is so fucking backwards.....and that might not be PC to say it but it's the truth....A great man once said "So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are." and it's as true now as it was when T.E. Lawrence said it.

And as much as people bitch about Iraq doing nothing about the situation between the Sunni and Shii'a and the Muslims and the Israelis didn't work either so trying something is better than doing nothing.

#3 The Heritage Foundation is an organization built to provide answers to political issues and it worked well for Ronald Reagan. Say what you will about his economy but he had to take over from JIMMY CARTER who drove America into the dirt....it's a hard job to right the ship once it's that far off course. He won the Cold War where's the thanks for that?....and don't say Gorby did the deed with his programs those would have been ineffective had Reagan not held strong with his policies. Reagan made Americans happy and proud to be Americans, and yes there is a drop off once government funding for everything under the sun is cut off....farmers were hurt and jobs were lost and there was a tough spot in 1980 where it looked like we were headed towards another depression but he pulled us out of it and his approval ratings dwarf anyone elses...even Bill Clinton's! He won by 80%...he was the last President that won an election by a majority, so let's not go crazy condeming the guy he was a damned good president and he did it all while being shot and nearly dying and dealing with Alzheimer's.


George W. Bush has not followed the conservative game plan, the government is bigger than ever and the spending is crazy, you are not going to get any arguement about that from me.

I guess my answers will be ridiculed and more questions will be asked and more numbers will be brought up because people hate conservatives when they don't understand the ideas behind tax cuts and the hatred of welfare and why wars sometimes need to be fought and how mistakes can be turned right in time.

For me Illegal immigrants = bad and I am not alone.


Now KL answer my question, where are you from?

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Look, if all you're going to do is post endless ignorant rants about immigrants this is pointless.

I already explained to you how illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes, using actual facts from the US government. You factlessly claiming otherwise is just pointless.

I'm from England and I worked in America for a number of years, may even return to work there at some point.

Now answer the questions you keep dodging

1. How happy are you that since Reagan trillions of dollars of the tax burden have been transferred from the top-earning 1% to low/middle income earners?

2. Does it bother you that a trillion dollar a year revenue shortfall caused by tax cuts for the top 1% is going to be be met by raising taxes yet again on low/middle income earners?

3. Does it bother you that trillions of your taxes and thousands of American lives have already gone and that the US army is fighting and dying to keep a government of Iranian-backed terrorists in power? Bush is actually preventing democracy in the Middle East, doesn't this bother you when US troops are supposedly fighting and dying to allow democracies to be possible there?

4. Don't you think that trillions of dollars in new taxes caused by George Bush's disastrous policies is more important than an alleged (by a right wing nutjob think tank) ten billion a year cost for illegal immigrants?


Now answer the questions, no more fact-free ranting please.

1. Tax cuts for the rich are not transfered to the lower classes...trickle down economics doesn't work that way. You don't move the burden you just releive the burden on the people who provide jobs to the lower income brackets so that perhaps they will provide more jobs and the taxes are made back by increased spending by sales tax.

2. The last time the taxes were raised on the middle class was when Bill Clinton was in office. And just because some people have money and some people don't it doesn't make the people that have bad or the ones that have not good.....so get over that right now.

3. Bush is not preventing democracy he is providing time for the Shi'ia and Sunni's to work out their differences and need I remind you that America didn't just take off running wild with democracy after The Revolution we actually had a failed government before the one that is in effect now came into existance....it was called the Articles of Confederation. Soldiers soldier....it's their job it's what they signed up for and it's what they are paid to do....I hate it when they are used as pawns in these politics and yeah I care very deeply about our soldiers no one just sends them out to be killed needlessly without remorse not even George Bush who isn't as heartless as everyone thinks.

4. You're retreating because you have been out dueled in this debate but yes I will digress and say that ILLEGAL immigration is one of many issues that needs tending to.


I didn't rant the last time! answering doesn't mean I am going to say what you want me to say that's not answering that's copying and pasting and you might as well do that if you don't like what I have to say.


Have I provided satisfactory answers or am I going to get bitched at again???

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Originally Posted by Lyle

1. Tax cuts for the rich are not transfered to the lower classes...trickle down economics doesn't work that way. You don't move the burden you just releive the burden on the people who provide jobs to the lower income brackets so that perhaps they will provide more jobs and the taxes are made back by increased spending by sales tax.

I just explained to you how the tax burden has indeed been transferred from the top 1%. If you want to argue using actual numbers, go right ahead.

Tax revenues have fallen so clearly you don't "make taxes back". You remember I just showed you a trillion dollar yearly shortfall in tax revenues since the Bush tax cuts in the previous post using actual facts, right? So where are these new revenues that have been "made back" by the tax cuts, hmmm?

If cutting taxes "relieves the burden" on the top 1% so that they can invest in the economy, why did business investment fall to the lowest level since the civil war under Reagan, and why has it collapsed again under Bush 43? Why did investment hit an all-time record after Clinton raised taxes on the top 1% ?



2. The last time the taxes were raised on the middle class was when Bill Clinton was in office. And just because some people have money and some people don't it doesn't make the people that have bad or the ones that have not good.....so get over that right now.

Every government raises some of the thousands of various taxes at some point and so any administration can be accused of "raising taxes on the middle classes." The fact is that Clinton reversed the direction the tax burden was taking, raising taxes on the top 1% while Reagan/Bush 41/43 have done the opposite. In simple terms, Reagan/Bushes robbed the poor to give to the rich and Clinton did the opposite. And like you say, whether rich or poor people are good or bad is irrelevant.

But none of your answer actually answers my question.

Here it is again :

Does it bother you that a trillion dollar a year revenue shortfall caused by tax cuts for the top 1% is going to be be met by raising taxes yet again on low/middle income earners?


3. Bush is not preventing democracy he is providing time for the Shi'ia and Sunni's to work out their differences and need I remind you that America didn't just take off running wild with democracy after The Revolution we actually had a failed government before the one that is in effect now came into existance....it was called the Articles of Confederation. Soldiers soldier....it's their job it's what they signed up for and it's what they are paid to do....I hate it when they are used as pawns in these politics and yeah I care very deeply about our soldiers no one just sends them out to be killed needlessly without remorse not even George Bush who isn't as heartless as everyone thinks.

Bush tried to prevent any elections taking place in Iraq till he'd written the constitution and ok'd the election contestants. Elections were only held when an Iranian Ayatollah insisted on them and issued a fatwa demanding them. After trying to ignore it, Bush eventually bent to the Ayatollah's will and agreed to elections, but had to go begging to the UN to set them and the new Iraq Constitution up because nobody in Iraq trusted him anymore. Now the country is run by people the Bush administration was calling terrorist groups in 2003.

Elsewhere Bush has tried to destroy the democratically elected government of Palestine and we prop up dictators and tyrannies all over the Middle East including four countries which border Iraq, so how is he not preventing democracy there?

4. You're retreating because you have been out dueled in this debate but yes I will digress and say that ILLEGAL immigration is one of many issues that needs tending to.

No attempt to answer my question again.

Define "out-dueled."

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Let's try this again

1. Tax cuts for the wealthy are not designed to burden the middle class or lower middle class. Cutting taxes for them is to increase the ability to provide jobs to the middle class and lower classes. Cutting taxes for everyone is to increase spending by the citizens not by the government and yes the spending that Bush has done is more than any other conservative in the history of the United States.

Usually when you cut taxes you cut government spending, that is a key mistake of the Bush administration. But having a deficit is nothing new to America and yes we should pay it off but we're talking AT LEAST 50 years of strict paying off of the debt and virtually cutting off all government spending elsewhere and that means everything Armed Forces, Congressmen etc. wouldn't get pay checks.

2. Deficits don't bother me as I have lived with a United States deficit my entire life so adding more to it doesn't matter to me the deficit has gone up like every year I have been alive.

3. Yes we've propped up many governments we put Saddam in power, we supported Batista in Cuba, Jang Hi Shek(sp?) in China, and some bad people in Chile and Vietnam. Yes we have had some mistakes but W didn't make them all. And the lives of soldiers always matter, I don't know why you would ask that, it's an incindiary comment that takes a stab at anyone who thinks the US owes it to Iraq to fix what we've broken.

Maybe we should just do nothing in the Middle East, I am sure Israel would enjoy that as they don't have many allies there.

The situation in Iraq is not written in stone right now, history will provide answers as to how poorly we have done there or and this may shock you....how we changed things for the better there, and I digress that is a very slim possibility but it's still a possibility.

4. Trillions in debt vs illegal immigrants taking jobs.....well it's sort of pointless to argue, the illegal immigrants are more of an everyday occurance, you see what happens personally people lose jobs etc....and like I said with the deficit we have had it forever and I'll live with it the rest of my life I know that. So basically something can be done about immigration vs nothing can really be done about the deficit.


Are we done yet? I mean I have explained and explained and explained and sure there are things we can disagree on those are called opinions and you need to stop trying to change mine.

If you dislike Bush so much why would you want to come back to America? What if another conservative gets elected?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Let's try this again

1. Tax cuts for the wealthy are not designed to burden the middle class or lower middle class. Cutting taxes for them is to increase the ability to provide jobs to the middle class and lower classes. Cutting taxes for everyone is to increase spending by the citizens not by the government and yes the spending that Bush has done is more than any other conservative in the history of the United States.

Usually when you cut taxes you cut government spending, that is a key mistake of the Bush administration. But having a deficit is nothing new to America and yes we should pay it off but we're talking AT LEAST 50 years of strict paying off of the debt and virtually cutting off all government spending elsewhere and that means everything Armed Forces, Congressmen etc. wouldn't get pay checks.

If cutting taxes for the wealthy is so that they can provide jobs, how come business investment collapsed to the lowest level since the civil war after the Reagan tax cuts and has collapsed again since the Bush tax cuts?

How come when Clinton increased taxes for the top-earning 1%, investment increased to record levels and job creation did the same, especially compared to Reagan/Bush?


2. Deficits don't bother me as I have lived with a United States deficit my entire life so adding more to it doesn't matter to me the deficit has gone up like every year I have been alive.

If deficits don't bother you, why are you complaining about an irrelevant couple of billion a year for illegal immigrants? You either care about your taxes or you don't. You can't claim both things at once.


You're aware that Bill Clinton turned a record deficit into a record budget surplus in eight years, right? That money was actually paid off the national debt for the first time in generations in 1999, right? So what are you talking about here?

Surely as somebody so worried about extra taxes, a new ongoing trillion dollar a year revenue shortfall created by Bush 43 must be worrying, no? It's going to mean huge increases in your taxes after all, just a few short years after Clinton put the budget into surplus.

3. Yes we've propped up many governments we put Saddam in power, we supported Batista in Cuba, Jang Hi Shek(sp?) in China, and some bad people in Chile and Vietnam. Yes we have had some mistakes but W didn't make them all. And the lives of soldiers always matter, I don't know why you would ask that, it's an incindiary comment that takes a stab at anyone who thinks the US owes it to Iraq to fix what we've broken.

Maybe we should just do nothing in the Middle East, I am sure Israel would enjoy that as they don't have many allies there.

The situation in Iraq is not written in stone right now, history will provide answers as to how poorly we have done there or and this may shock you....how we changed things for the better there, and I digress that is a very slim possibility but it's still a possibility.

There's no possibility at all. Bush has wasted thousands of lives and trillions of dollars handing the world's second-largest oil reserve to the Iranians, something they've been trying to do for centuries. Bush achieved it in a couple of years, a "dream come true" according to the Ayatollahs. Surely as a taxpayer such a disastrous use of trillions of your dollars upsets you?

Doesn't it bother you that Bush tells lies about bringing democracy to the Middle East while continuing to prop up dictatorships all over the region?

4. Trillions in debt vs illegal immigrants taking jobs.....well it's sort of pointless to argue, the illegal immigrants are more of an everyday occurance, you see what happens personally people lose jobs etc....and like I said with the deficit we have had it forever and I'll live with it the rest of my life I know that. So basically something can be done about immigration vs nothing can really be done about the deficit.


Are we done yet? I mean I have explained and explained and explained and sure there are things we can disagree on those are called opinions and you need to stop trying to change mine.

If you dislike Bush so much why would you want to come back to America? What if another conservative gets elected?


Again there wasn't a deficit seven years ago. So clearly something can be done about the deficit. Of the extra trillions that Bush has added to the national debt since 2000, don't you think an alleged $10 billion a year cost of illegal immigration is irrelevant?

If my work situation dictates that I have to go back to America then back I'll go. I don't like the politicians in either country. I'm hoping a conservative gets elected in America in 2008 or the forthcoming economic/foreign policy trainwreck will be blamed on the 2008 Democratic winner, allowing right wing nutjobs like the Heritage Foundation the opportunity to fool millions of unknowledgeable Americans that the future disasters are all the Democrats' fault and things would be so much better under a Republican president. I want to see everything collapse with no Democratic input.

The things we're disagreeing on are mainly facts involving numbers. Facts don't seem to have any relevance to you, you believe all the stuff you've been bsed with over the years instead. Try actually answering some of the questions I asked you in this post.

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http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm

[img width=700 height=635]http://www.uuforum.org/Images/deficit.gif[/img]

1. When Clinton was in office he had a certain event (the .com/computer boom) that triggered an economic surge and it wasn't due to his tax policies. Also economics take time to affect the job market.

2. How many motherfucking times must I explain this?!?!? Read this real fucking close YOU CANNOT CUT TAXES AND INCREASE SPENDING, IT DOESN'T WORK.

3. What are the winning lottery numbers for this month since you seem to be able to read the future.....you cannot say that what has happened in Iraq is good or bad until enough time has passed to really judge anything....and I guess the Shi'ia are pretty fucking happy there is no Saddam anymore as they were oppressed by him AND the Kurds must be happy as the man who gassed them has been brought to justice.

Sure Iraq is a bad situation but I suppose just leaving them in chaos is a great idea that won't create more resentment at all.....what's your fucking plan genius? I say rebuild Iraq because we are the reason it's broken to begin with.

4. If you're just talking about staying in the black for a year at a time that's all fine and dandy, I am looking at the big picture....you do realize the US has a National Debt right???

http://zfacts.com/p/461.html

You just watch that for a while and tell me that any deficit numbers you quote me actually mean anything at all

The Heritage Foundation aren't "nut jobs"....I don't think you understand, they are not inherently evil.....I am glad you can keep such an open mind about all this.




So you 100% believe I am just a right wing maniac and I have a black heart? Well I am happy your mind is made up about that....maybe you can post some sense into me.....can we live in a comune and can I have my money taken by the government and given to drug addicts and keep the people YOU and your idealic politicians want to help in abject poverty?

Keep on with your posting, I appreciate being told how my country should be run by someone who doesn't even live here

....you confuse me for someone who is infatuated with George W. Bush....I most certainly am not. His mistakes are huge and will be long felt.


I am a conservative, George W. Bush is not....if he was his spending would be....well, CONSERVATIVE