Anybody think Pac has lost 5 fights and JMM has only lost 1??

the first fight i think marquez rallied enough to edge pacquiao, although you could argue pac should've won if there wasn't any error in one of the judges' scoring. the 2nd fight i thought jmm won a close one but upon replaying the fights several times and scoring round by round it always came up pac finishing up 1 pt. ahead for me with the kd making the difference. honestly, i think it would have been more controversial had the judges ruled both fights for jmm having been down 4 times in 24 rounds.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Chino

I remember when JC Chavez faced Whitaker. Even Mexican newspapers, sports channels, sports magazines, etc. In Mexico and in the USA questioned JC Chavez draw. I would never imagine Filipino press or boxing enthusiasts questioning Pac.
I'll say that the KO on the 2nd fight helped Pac a lot to get a decision even if JMM won most rounds. The KO can cause a big impact in anybody's eyes.



I don't understand why we latins/hispanics are called "Spanish" many times, is it because of the language we speak that people get confused with us being Spaniards or something? It would be like people calling Australians and Americans, English, or calling all Asians, Chinese. Don't you think? :)

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Because half of the people in latin america have spanish decent, if you look back to Spain coming over, only a very slight part of the mexican people are still fully Aztec or Mayan. I didn't mean for this to be a racist thing, I just saw prodominantly spanish people toute Marquez won, I guess I was wrong.

ICB, which rounds did you give to Marquez exactly?

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yup gotta go with Taeth on this one, i get what he's trying to say on the bold bit is that most of the population in what are now latin american countries are spanish influenced due to the conquistador's and such, Puerto Rico in specific derives mainly of 3 cultures, Taino, African, and Spanish, and Mexico can't forget that most of the original Aztec or Mayan people were whiped out by illness, mainly the small pox, same as the Taino's here in PR, and well like in pretty much every country in the world, there is no such thing as a PURE race, but yea i disagree with the mainly latinos believing Marquez won bit, that's like saying mainly only Filipino's believe that Pacquiao won, i think there is a good mix of nationalities that believe Marquez won

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I personally consider the whiter latinos as white people, I always have Marquez, Wilfredo Gomez, Barrera, Morrales, etc. Obviously guys like Trinidad and Cotto aren't white, but they are milato or however you spell it with a large african orientation. There is no secret then when 90% of the aztecs were whiped out through slave labour and disease that the spaniards brought up African slaves.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Mayweather is black. Brian Kenny is white. Both had Marquez winning

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Nonito had JMM winning and he is Filipino !!! (after the fight interview)

I had the first a draw and the second to Marquez. Unfortunately for Marquez, if you take away the knockdowns he would have won both decisively imo. I scored the Marquez John fight a draw also. I didnt see that as the robbery that many people did, but I didnt think John did enough to win either.

Because half of the people in latin america have spanish decent ? Are you kidding me !!!!! Are any of you aware of the large number of Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese, German, Lebanese and Jewish people in Latin America...... Then Filipinos are also Spanish or one could argue Chinese base on their cultural influence. Seems the majority of the people in here are unable to distinguish the difference between race and ethnicity.

Race is something you're born with an ethnicity is what your culture is. Like your race could be Chinese and your ethnicity could be American if you were born in America.

So how are Mexicans Spanish?

Let me educate you:

Mexican! Not Latino, Latinos are the white people of Latin America.
........... Not Hispanic, Hispanics are the people of Spain, European.

Mexicans are indigenous people! They are not white! So do not promote the cultural castration the their people!


To people of the USA, they are not foreigners to the land.


Mexican people of today are primarily a mixed blood and / or full blooded Indigenous people.

92% of the the so called Hispanics in Atzlan (the Southwestern USA) are people of Mexican descent. Not foreigners or minorities as generally labeled. They are also 71% of the so-called Hispanics/Latinos in the USA as a whole. So how wrong are you to call anyone in Latin America Spanish ? I say educate yourself before you make comments you know very little of and we are to believe you know anything about boxing?

Anyone of any color born in Mexico is viewed as a Mexican, ( This applies to most countries in Latin America) they are not race grouping individuals like people of the USA and their forefathers from Europe!

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Not even close to the majority think Marquez won both fights, I have only seen spanish/mexicans who think Marquez won the second fight, they still can't give a logical round by round reason why they believe he won the second fight, they say what rounds, but when I go through the rounds punch by punch they have no answer for the truth.

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All these people had JMM winning i'd say more people think JMM won there 2nd fight, than more people think Manny Pacquiao won the 2nd fight. And by the way i had JMM winning both Manny Pacquiao fights and the Chris John fight with ease, and im certainly not Spanish/Mexican.


Associated Press:114-113 Marquez
- Joe Santoliquito:115-112 Marquez
- Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-113 Marquez
- Darius Ortiz, ESPN.com:114-113 Marquez
- Eric Raskin, ESPN.com:114-113 Marquez
- Brian Kenny, Friday Night Fights:115-112 Marquez
- Scott Mallon, Ring Magazine / Boxing News / The Fist / Boxing Digest:114-113 Marquez
- Yahoo Sports:115-112 Marquez
- Fight News.com:115-112 Marquez
- Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review Journal: 114-113 Marquez
- Norm Fraunheim, Arizona Republic:114-113 Marquez
- Rich Marrotta, Top Rank TV:114-113 Marquez
- Kieran Mulvaney, Reuters:114-113 Marquez
- DogHouseBoxing:114-113 Marquez
- Brett Conway, MaxBoxing.com:114-113 Marquez
- Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com:114-113 Marquez
- Gary Randall, MaxBoxing.com:114-113 Marquez
- Bart Barry, 15Rounds.com:115-113 Marquez
- Bruce McTavish, International Judge:115-112 Marquez
- Francis Ochoa, Philippine Daily Inquirer:114-113 Marquez
- Scott Christ, BadLeftHook.com:114-113 Marquez
- William Detloff, The Ring Magazine:115-113 Marquez
- Ron Borges, TheSweetScience.com:114-113 Marquez
- Bert Sugar:Marquez
- Max Kellerman & Bob Papa:Marquez in both fights
- Nonito Donaire:114-113 Marquez
- Filipino Sports Analysts Ronnie Nathanielsz, Recah Trinidad and Ed Picson all picked Marquez.
- Graham Houston, FightWriter.com also picked Marquez

• Pacquiao wins the vacant Ring Magazine jr. lightweight world title. Ring Magazine awarded the belt to Pacquiao but did not believe he won the fight.

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Are these valid? Like is this from a real article? Either way anybody, who had Marquez up by more than one point is clearly delusional because thats the only way I give people the slightest reasoning for having him up in the fight, there is no way he was up two or three rounds when the knockdown is taken into consideration. Once again, what rounds did they give to Marquez? I guarantee if I sat down a watched the fight through with anyone I could convince them that two rounds people always seem to give Marquez (1 and 11) clearly didn't belong to him.

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Taeth,

You clearly have no shame.
Cause if you had the slightest you would have responded by saying you were wrong in your 1st comment.
But I should have known that you wouldn't.
You just got your ass handed to you by ICB and your response is.
Are these valid?
Followed by
Either way.... blah! blah!

Trying to discredit the list of scores. ;D

Here's a list of people who scored the PAC vs. JMM fights that matter most (I'm not sure about the race/nationality of these persons):

John Stewart 115-110 for PAC
Burt Clements 113-113 Draw (Note: Clements doesn't know how to score a 3 KD round)
Guy Jutras 110-115 for JMM
Duane Ford 115-112 for PAC
Jerry Roth 112-115 for JMM
Tom Miller 114-113 for PAC

3 persons scored it for PAC, 2 persons for JMM and with 1 person scoring it even...;D
.

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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing

Because half of the people in latin america have spanish decent ? Are you kidding me !!!!! Are any of you aware of the large number of Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese, German, Lebanese and Jewish people in Latin America...... Then Filipinos are also Spanish or one could argue Chinese base on their cultural influence. Seems the majority of the people in here are unable to distinguish the difference between race and ethnicity.

Race is something you're born with an ethnicity is what your culture is. Like your race could be Chinese and your ethnicity could be American if you were born in America.

So how are Mexicans Spanish?

Let me educate you:

Mexican! Not Latino, Latinos are the white people of Latin America.
........... Not Hispanic, Hispanics are the people of Spain, European.

Mexicans are indigenous people! They are not white! So do not promote the cultural castration the their people!


To people of the USA, they are not foreigners to the land.


Mexican people of today are primarily a mixed blood and / or full blooded Indigenous people.

92% of the the so called Hispanics in Atzlan (the Southwestern USA) are people of Mexican descent. Not foreigners or minorities as generally labeled. They are also 71% of the so-called Hispanics/Latinos in the USA as a whole. So how wrong are you to call anyone in Latin America Spanish ? I say educate yourself before you make comments you know very little of and we are to believe you know anything about boxing?

Anyone of any color born in Mexico is viewed as a Mexican, ( This applies to most countries in Latin America) they are not race grouping individuals like people of the USA and their forefathers from Europe!

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Study anthropology, you can't educate me on this. There are virtually no true north american natives left in mexico except in secluded groups. The indeginous population was almost totally eradicated in mexico and the carribean islands. I've taken up to 400 level meso-american anthropology courses.

As for the culture, there is no north american culture that has been more assimilated by European people than the Mexican culture. Their religion is European, they beliefs are European. Once again out of all the partially aboriginal people, how many still believe in the Aztec gods? Many have reclaimed their culture for financial purposes, but still the majority of mexicans are christians who abide by the bibles' laws.

I am not trying to say Mexican haven't developed their own culture, but its more tied into their spanish ancestry than it is into their Mayan or Aztec ancesty.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by ICB

All these people had JMM winning i'd say more people think JMM won there 2nd fight, than more people think Manny Pacquiao won the 2nd fight. And by the way i had JMM winning both Manny Pacquiao fights and the Chris John fight with ease, and im certainly not Spanish/Mexican.


Associated Press:114-113 Marquez
- Joe Santoliquito:115-112 Marquez
- Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-113 Marquez
- Darius Ortiz, ESPN.com:114-113 Marquez
- Eric Raskin, ESPN.com:114-113 Marquez
- Brian Kenny, Friday Night Fights:115-112 Marquez
- Scott Mallon, Ring Magazine / Boxing News / The Fist / Boxing Digest:114-113 Marquez
- Yahoo Sports:115-112 Marquez
- Fight News.com:115-112 Marquez
- Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review Journal: 114-113 Marquez
- Norm Fraunheim, Arizona Republic:114-113 Marquez
- Rich Marrotta, Top Rank TV:114-113 Marquez
- Kieran Mulvaney, Reuters:114-113 Marquez
- DogHouseBoxing:114-113 Marquez
- Brett Conway, MaxBoxing.com:114-113 Marquez
- Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com:114-113 Marquez
- Gary Randall, MaxBoxing.com:114-113 Marquez
- Bart Barry, 15Rounds.com:115-113 Marquez
- Bruce McTavish, International Judge:115-112 Marquez
- Francis Ochoa, Philippine Daily Inquirer:114-113 Marquez
- Scott Christ, BadLeftHook.com:114-113 Marquez
- William Detloff, The Ring Magazine:115-113 Marquez
- Ron Borges, TheSweetScience.com:114-113 Marquez
- Bert Sugar:Marquez
- Max Kellerman & Bob Papa:Marquez in both fights
- Nonito Donaire:114-113 Marquez
- Filipino Sports Analysts Ronnie Nathanielsz, Recah Trinidad and Ed Picson all picked Marquez.
- Graham Houston, FightWriter.com also picked Marquez

• Pacquiao wins the vacant Ring Magazine jr. lightweight world title. Ring Magazine awarded the belt to Pacquiao but did not believe he won the fight.

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Are these valid? Like is this from a real article? Either way anybody, who had Marquez up by more than one point is clearly delusional because thats the only way I give people the slightest reasoning for having him up in the fight, there is no way he was up two or three rounds when the knockdown is taken into consideration. Once again, what rounds did they give to Marquez? I guarantee if I sat down a watched the fight through with anyone I could convince them that two rounds people always seem to give Marquez (1 and 11) clearly didn't belong to him.

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Taeth,

You clearly have no shame.
Cause if you had the slightest you would have responded by saying you were wrong in your 1st comment.
But I should have known that you wouldn't.
You just got your ass handed to you by ICB and your response is.
Are these valid?
Followed by
Either way.... blah! blah!

Trying to discredit the list of scores. ;D

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I discredit people just blurting out scores, Give me a round by round disclosure, and I will debate those rounds with people. If you are so sure a guy won a round, why are people so hesitant to go punch by punch through a round? I realize my spanish comment was misunderstood as racist because some uneducated people have been falsely taught what has actually transpired over the last 400 years, but nevertheless if I want to see where a list came from, or why these guys picked the fight the way they did, why should I be discredited for it. I am not one of those guys who follows "expert opinions" blindly. Half the people who cover boxing know shit all about the sport because they've actually wanted to cover other sports, but have been stuck with boxing.

i had marquez taking the 1st fight 113-112 and the second 114-113

to have a loss and a draw to his name after winning 2 fights is rather sad if you ask me as i still to this day believe marquez is the better all round fighter out of he and pac.

The judge that scored the 1st round of the 1st fight 10-6 needs shooting. Whether there are 2 knockdowns or 8 knockdowns in a round you cannot score it any lower than 10-7 as the remainder of the fight would become completely obsolete.

Mayweather will out manouvere marq and take a points win and will go on to stop pacquiao late on.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Addicted to_boxing

Because half of the people in latin america have spanish decent ? Are you kidding me !!!!! Are any of you aware of the large number of Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese, German, Lebanese and Jewish people in Latin America...... Then Filipinos are also Spanish or one could argue Chinese base on their cultural influence. Seems the majority of the people in here are unable to distinguish the difference between race and ethnicity.

Race is something you're born with an ethnicity is what your culture is. Like your race could be Chinese and your ethnicity could be American if you were born in America.

So how are Mexicans Spanish?

Let me educate you:

Mexican! Not Latino, Latinos are the white people of Latin America.
........... Not Hispanic, Hispanics are the people of Spain, European.

Mexicans are indigenous people! They are not white! So do not promote the cultural castration the their people!


To people of the USA, they are not foreigners to the land.


Mexican people of today are primarily a mixed blood and / or full blooded Indigenous people.

92% of the the so called Hispanics in Atzlan (the Southwestern USA) are people of Mexican descent. Not foreigners or minorities as generally labeled. They are also 71% of the so-called Hispanics/Latinos in the USA as a whole. So how wrong are you to call anyone in Latin America Spanish ? I say educate yourself before you make comments you know very little of and we are to believe you know anything about boxing?

Anyone of any color born in Mexico is viewed as a Mexican, ( This applies to most countries in Latin America) they are not race grouping individuals like people of the USA and their forefathers from Europe!

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Study anthropology, you can't educate me on this. There are virtually no true north american natives left in mexico except in secluded groups. The indeginous population was almost totally eradicated in mexico and the carribean islands. I've taken up to 400 level meso-american anthropology courses.

As for the culture, there is no north american culture that has been more assimilated by European people than the Mexican culture. Their religion is European, they beliefs are European. Once again out of all the partially aboriginal people, how many still believe in the Aztec gods? Many have reclaimed their culture for financial purposes, but still the majority of mexicans are christians who abide by the bibles' laws.

I am not trying to say Mexican haven't developed their own culture, but its more tied into their spanish ancestry than it is into their Mayan or Aztec ancesty.

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So because you've taken courses on it you know more about Mexico than Mexicans? WTF are you talking about anyway, you start off by making a statement that implies you discount anyones score because of their heritage. This further implies that an entire culture of people are unable to objectively score a fight. You further go on to say, it is impossible to go against your scoring beacause only your score is right. Would you deny there were enough swing rounds to give both fights to either fighter?

These 2 fights are a bit hard to score, per moment. Personally, I would say a fight for Marquez and the other one for PAcman but both were very tight fights and some rounds are absolutely hell to judge, really. No matter who really won what, these were 2 extremely competitive bouts and there would be space for another one while JMM isn't too old. 2010? LEt's hope for it:)

Both fights were disputable. Both fights could have gone either way. JMM is a beast and so is Manny.

I am a huge fan of both of them. My scores of the fight do not exactly match the official scores, but I'll be dammed if I will argue with them. Too close to call and it is purely subjective.

What I do know is that they are so evenly matched, that both of them have the ability to bring out the best and worst in each other.

Whew! This post sure went into some dangerous territory. I think people know that either way on either fight that there were so many close rounds that a decision favoring JMM would have caused just as much controversy. Anyone who says that JMM couldn't have been the victor in either fight is in denial. You can not discount people's opinions in a close fight because we all see and favor different things. I personally thought JMM won both fights and I am black. Race has nothing to do with who thought JMM won. I have no problem with Pac being the winner in the 2nd fight because it was close. I actually think he won the 2nd clearer and the 1st was cloudy. But there were no robberies. And it is impossible to score rounds punch by punch because the round has to be judged as a whole. Every punch is different, how they land, effectiveness, etc. They are not field goals. This is not the amateur system. There would be too many variables and even more opinions mixed in. Yes, JMM could be without those blemishes on his record but this is boxing and wins and losses decisions are made on 3 people's opinions...although sometimes shady.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

Probably the majority believe JMM won both fights with Pac and the majority think JMM was robbed against Chris John, so the would make their records as follows:

Pac 48-5-1

JMM 53 -1 (+ 1 DQ)

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Actually, JMM could be undefeated without that DQ. When he lost to Freddie Norwood he definitely was had. I thought that was a very poor decision. In my opinion, it is his most suspicious loss. If I remember correctly, even a commentator made a statement about how he thought JMM won that fight. I know all of my guys thought he won and we were pushing for Norwood because we bought into the Freddie Norwood hype at the time.