How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Well what i am saying is that alot of the lower weights stay around the same weight dont move to many divsion like Lopez did in his career. Now i am not a expert on the man i seen few fights he was a good boxer. Also he was undefeated and held titles and fly and super fly iam guessing. If i am wrong on the weight classes my bad not looking it up right now. But from the list of names seen him beat his resume is on par with Rocky. Hence when people rate him above say Holyfeild, Lennox and Holmes i really dont think based on his comp that he should be ahead of them. Also to me it seems if your a heavyweight and not Ali you get no respect in pound for pound. I mean like i said before you got Foreman, Fraizer, Holyfeild, Lennox and Holmes none of which get tha much mention in the pound for pound picture. All i am saying i thik no matter what size they were great fighters. the heavyweights for some reason dont seem to be include in it and i think it is unfair that is all considering how many great champs have come for the divsion.

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If I remember correctly Mike Tyson at his height did get rated as a top 10 p4p in the old issues of Ring Magazine in the late 80s. I guess it also depends on how dominant a guy is at his weight.

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Originally Posted by C-Lo

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Originally Posted by CFH

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Agreed!

I don't think Donaire should be in the top 10 P4P but he's definitely a talented fighter. IMO he hasn't done enough in his career to get such a prestigious ranking. He beat one name, a good name though, but it's not enough to get that high. He has the talent to have that ranking but you need to prove it to actually have it.

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problem is, he calls out this other elite fighters on the lower division but quite frankly, they just cower in fear from him: going up in weight, fighting each other, etc as if he is just a ghost... he has been one of the most avoided one in his division. fact is: he has called out arce, mijares, darchinyan for an immediate rematch,hussein, and just recently montiel but again montiel turned him down in the last minute for a fight in the philippines just as everbody on the above list did. however his previous list of victims after that darch fight is'nt that bad either. like xadu said all were top contenders for the belt and one being undefeated. his skills is unquestionable, in fact, skillwise, he has been considered by some pacfans better than pac, and you can include me on that one.

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

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Originally Posted by C-Lo

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Originally Posted by CFH

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Agreed!

I don't think Donaire should be in the top 10 P4P but he's definitely a talented fighter. IMO he hasn't done enough in his career to get such a prestigious ranking. He beat one name, a good name though, but it's not enough to get that high. He has the talent to have that ranking but you need to prove it to actually have it.

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problem is, he calls out this other elite fighters on the lower division but quite frankly, they just cower in fear from him: going up in weight, fighting each other, etc as if he is just a ghost... he has been one of the most avoided one in his division. fact is: he has called out arce, mijares, darchinyan for an immediate rematch,hussein, and just recently montiel but again montiel turned him down in the last minute for a fight in the philippines just as everbody on the above list did. however his previous list of victims after that darch fight is'nt that bad either. like xadu said all were top contenders for the belt and one being undefeated. his skills is unquestionable, in fact, skillwise, he has been considered by some pacfans better than pac, and you can include me on that one.

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So true...
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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

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Originally Posted by C-Lo

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Originally Posted by CFH

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Agreed!

I don't think Donaire should be in the top 10 P4P but he's definitely a talented fighter. IMO he hasn't done enough in his career to get such a prestigious ranking. He beat one name, a good name though, but it's not enough to get that high. He has the talent to have that ranking but you need to prove it to actually have it.

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problem is, he calls out this other elite fighters on the lower division but quite frankly, they just cower in fear from him: going up in weight, fighting each other, etc as if he is just a ghost... he has been one of the most avoided one in his division. fact is: he has called out arce, mijares, darchinyan for an immediate rematch,hussein, and just recently montiel but again montiel turned him down in the last minute for a fight in the philippines just as everbody on the above list did. however his previous list of victims after that darch fight is'nt that bad either. like xadu said all were top contenders for the belt and one being undefeated. his skills is unquestionable, in fact, skillwise, he has been considered by some pacfans better than pac, and you can include me on that one.

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None of that has any bearing on his inclusion in the top 10 P4P. In fact, it only reinforces the notion that he should not be included as his resume is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?

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Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

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How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

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I agree, Darchinyan has improved alot since the donaire fight and was not a multi division world champion when he was beat so you cant say at the time he beat a multi-division champion, you can say he beat a guy who went on to be a multi-division champion ;) I dont think Donaire has beaten anyone great to get into the p4p list either. Yes he beat darchinyan, but didnt everyone think darchynian was begging to be outboxed and was over rated? So what makes it such a big accomplishment now?

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?

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Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

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How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

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it's seems you're questioning my list. p4p would always be debatable and you could go on and on and it would never get resolve. it's about who's the best at the moment if they fight and they're the same size. it so happen i think highly of donaire and imo he beats those guys you mentioned. of course i could be wrong but its just what it is, an opinion. it's just that i know a lot about donaire and although he hasn't faced notable competition, the way he's been dismantling opposition as of late prompts me to place him where i did. imo, he still beats darchi handily if they face again.

putting mijares in the p4p last year would have been a mistake now because you are looking at it at hindsight. that's why our personal list changes ever so often depending on what happens on future match-ups. it's about the moment, right now, about the fighters we know, so i don't see what the fuzz is all about.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

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Originally Posted by C-Lo

Agreed!

I don't think Donaire should be in the top 10 P4P but he's definitely a talented fighter. IMO he hasn't done enough in his career to get such a prestigious ranking. He beat one name, a good name though, but it's not enough to get that high. He has the talent to have that ranking but you need to prove it to actually have it.

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problem is, he calls out this other elite fighters on the lower division but quite frankly, they just cower in fear from him: going up in weight, fighting each other, etc as if he is just a ghost... he has been one of the most avoided one in his division. fact is: he has called out arce, mijares, darchinyan for an immediate rematch,hussein, and just recently montiel but again montiel turned him down in the last minute for a fight in the philippines just as everbody on the above list did. however his previous list of victims after that darch fight is'nt that bad either. like xadu said all were top contenders for the belt and one being undefeated. his skills is unquestionable, in fact, skillwise, he has been considered by some pacfans better than pac, and you can include me on that one.

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None of that has any bearing on his inclusion in the top 10 P4P. In fact, it only reinforces the notion that he should not be included as his resume is lacking.

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can't blame nonito. nonito called them up and what did they do? nothing. or if one did he cancelled it due to an "injury"(montiel). is nonito blamed for this? he did everything for those fights to happen but they avoided him, i guess quite contrast to your opinion, the notion he called out this fighters but none of them have bitten the bait proves that he should be there. fighters know if the one they are going to face are heavy risks (like nonito) thus nonito is for real. you could include jmm on that scenario wayback for they almost share the same crisis. jmm was avoided by em, mab, and hamed. and if i was'nt for pac, he won't be known as the p4p #2 now, right? question is: will history repeat itself thru nonito like what happened to jmm? only time will tell who will be the fighter that would make that breakthrough for him. (like pac did for jmm tll everybody praised him to who he is today: the #2 p4p!)
this ring mag people knew that nonito is the real deal base on how he is avoided by this fighters. i guess that answers your question, bilbo, no matter how senseless it looks. the whole quality of opposition cowers away from him like he is an evovled specie of h1n1!
or you can also ask people here who will win if those fights happen.(nonito vs a, vs b, vs c...) only guy who can stand a chance actually against nonito is montiel imo. we can all predict that, can't we? of course it's just a prediction but arce vs nonito? you can guess right who would win easily there, right?

oh, you're talking about ring magazine? they also have him at no. 7? i guess they have it spot on then. ;D

I'm happy with Nonito. I think he's really in good hands with Arum. Shaw treated him crap after the Darchinyan fight and gave all the opportunities to Vic instead of Nonito. So nobody can really Donaire for bailing out on his ass. I cant wait for Donaire to snatch that 115 WBA like taking a lolypop from 3 year old girl this august. lol.

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

problem is, he calls out this other elite fighters on the lower division but quite frankly, they just cower in fear from him: going up in weight, fighting each other, etc as if he is just a ghost... he has been one of the most avoided one in his division. fact is: he has called out arce, mijares, darchinyan for an immediate rematch,hussein, and just recently montiel but again montiel turned him down in the last minute for a fight in the philippines just as everbody on the above list did. however his previous list of victims after that darch fight is'nt that bad either. like xadu said all were top contenders for the belt and one being undefeated. his skills is unquestionable, in fact, skillwise, he has been considered by some pacfans better than pac, and you can include me on that one.

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None of that has any bearing on his inclusion in the top 10 P4P. In fact, it only reinforces the notion that he should not be included as his resume is lacking.

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can't blame nonito. nonito called them up and what did they do? nothing. or if one did he cancelled it due to an "injury"(montiel). is nonito blamed for this? he did everything for those fights to happen but they avoided him, i guess quite contrast to your opinion, the notion he called out this fighters but none of them have bitten the bait proves that he should be there. fighters know if the one they are going to face are heavy risks (like nonito) thus nonito is for real. you could include jmm on that scenario wayback for they almost share the same crisis. jmm was avoided by em, mab, and hamed. and if i was'nt for pac, he won't be known as the p4p #2 now, right? question is: will history repeat itself thru nonito like what happened to jmm? only time will tell who will be the fighter that would make that breakthrough for him. (like pac did for jmm tll everybody praised him to who he is today: the #2 p4p!)
this ring mag people knew that nonito is the real deal base on how he is avoided by this fighters. i guess that answers your question, bilbo, no matter how senseless it looks. the whole quality of opposition cowers away from him like he is an evovled specie of h1n1!
or you can also ask people here who will win if those fights happen.(nonito vs a, vs b, vs c...) only guy who can stand a chance actually against nonito is montiel imo. we can all predict that, can't we? of course it's just a prediction but arce vs nonito? you can guess right who would win easily there, right?

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Being an avoided fighter means nothing in the context of P4P lists. If it did, a highly skilled fighter like Paul Williams who has a better resume that Donaire, comparable skills, and who is avoided by fighters in three separate divisions should still be ranked well above Donaire. By your criteria he could be ranked in the top 5.

Again, regardless of the reasons, Donaire does not have the resume to be included in the P4P list in my opinion. He has fought one legitimate opponent in his entire career.

PWill should be ranked ahead Izzy, Rafa, Donaire, and Darchinyan. Donaire is avoided in 3 separate divisions by champions too btw.. 112, 115, and 118. Darchinyan didn't avoid him, but look what happened to that fight. And now Donaire is being duck more, including Darchinyan because of that fight.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by mad_takamura

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Originally Posted by CFH

None of that has any bearing on his inclusion in the top 10 P4P. In fact, it only reinforces the notion that he should not be included as his resume is lacking.

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can't blame nonito. nonito called them up and what did they do? nothing. or if one did he cancelled it due to an "injury"(montiel). is nonito blamed for this? he did everything for those fights to happen but they avoided him, i guess quite contrast to your opinion, the notion he called out this fighters but none of them have bitten the bait proves that he should be there. fighters know if the one they are going to face are heavy risks (like nonito) thus nonito is for real. you could include jmm on that scenario wayback for they almost share the same crisis. jmm was avoided by em, mab, and hamed. and if i was'nt for pac, he won't be known as the p4p #2 now, right? question is: will history repeat itself thru nonito like what happened to jmm? only time will tell who will be the fighter that would make that breakthrough for him. (like pac did for jmm tll everybody praised him to who he is today: the #2 p4p!)
this ring mag people knew that nonito is the real deal base on how he is avoided by this fighters. i guess that answers your question, bilbo, no matter how senseless it looks. the whole quality of opposition cowers away from him like he is an evovled specie of h1n1!
or you can also ask people here who will win if those fights happen.(nonito vs a, vs b, vs c...) only guy who can stand a chance actually against nonito is montiel imo. we can all predict that, can't we? of course it's just a prediction but arce vs nonito? you can guess right who would win easily there, right?

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Being an avoided fighter means nothing in the context of P4P lists. If it did, a highly skilled fighter like Paul Williams who has a better resume that Donaire, comparable skills, and who is avoided by fighters in three separate divisions should still be ranked well above Donaire. By your criteria he could be ranked in the top 5.

Again, regardless of the reasons, Donaire does not have the resume to be included in the P4P list in my opinion. He has fought one legitimate opponent in his entire career.

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Exactly, but the people defending Donaire will disregard this post.

I don't disregard a valid opinion.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ok I know you guys will tell me what a super slick operator he is, but what has he actually done? :confused:

He knocked out Darchinyan in a big upset, and since then Darchinyan (NOT Donaire) has gone to do great things picking up titles in two weight classes and scoring big wins over Mijares (another hugely overinflated fighter) and Arce.

Donaire has the win over Darchinyan on his record and nothing else.

He has beaten ONE world champion, thats it. And I'm not talking about reigning champs here either, I mean only ONE opponent had EVER held a world title.

How the fuck does that put him above Paul Williams 3 time world champ in two weight classes plus a dominating win over one of the modern greats in Winky Wright?

How does that put him above David Haye, the unified cruiserweight world champ, or Chad Dawson the undefeated light heavyweight king with wins over two weight and reigning cruiserweight champ Adamek, plus wins over former undisputed champs (I think) Antonio Tarver (twice) and Glen Johnson?

How about Mikkell Kessler, three time world champ, wins over reigning champ Anthony Mundine, defending champ Marcus Beyer etc.

Has there EVER been a fighter who defeated ONE world champ who wasn't even in the top 10 p4p at the time and has never even fought let alone beat another world champ (not reigning but world champ at anytime in their career) and yet still gets a top place?

It's so undeserving, Juan Manuel Lopez has done just as much.

If people want to tell me he's super skillful and slick and I know nothing, ok maybe he is, but what has he actually done?

I was the only hater of Christian Mijares on here when everybody was claiming he was an all time great in the making and nobody could see how overated he was, well I called it then and I'm calling it now.

Donaire has done nothing to deserve top 10 status let alone top 7.

In a year after he gets sparked by Fernano Montiel or somebody similar he will be another forgotten man.

Williams, Guzman, Kessler, Pavlik, Abraham, Haye, Dawson all have a case for inclusion above him.

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the answer is simple $$$$

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ok I know you guys will tell me what a super slick operator he is, but what has he actually done? :confused:

He knocked out Darchinyan in a big upset, and since then Darchinyan (NOT Donaire) has gone to do great things picking up titles in two weight classes and scoring big wins over Mijares (another hugely overinflated fighter) and Arce.

Donaire has the win over Darchinyan on his record and nothing else.

He has beaten ONE world champion, thats it. And I'm not talking about reigning champs here either, I mean only ONE opponent had EVER held a world title.

How the fuck does that put him above Paul Williams 3 time world champ in two weight classes plus a dominating win over one of the modern greats in Winky Wright?

How does that put him above David Haye, the unified cruiserweight world champ, or Chad Dawson the undefeated light heavyweight king with wins over two weight and reigning cruiserweight champ Adamek, plus wins over former undisputed champs (I think) Antonio Tarver (twice) and Glen Johnson?

How about Mikkell Kessler, three time world champ, wins over reigning champ Anthony Mundine, defending champ Marcus Beyer etc.

Has there EVER been a fighter who defeated ONE world champ who wasn't even in the top 10 p4p at the time and has never even fought let alone beat another world champ (not reigning but world champ at anytime in their career) and yet still gets a top place?

It's so undeserving, Juan Manuel Lopez has done just as much.

If people want to tell me he's super skillful and slick and I know nothing, ok maybe he is, but what has he actually done?

I was the only hater of Christian Mijares on here when everybody was claiming he was an all time great in the making and nobody could see how overated he was, well I called it then and I'm calling it now.

Donaire has done nothing to deserve top 10 status let alone top 7.

In a year after he gets sparked by Fernano Montiel or somebody similar he will be another forgotten man.

Williams, Guzman, Kessler, Pavlik, Abraham, Haye, Dawson all have a case for inclusion above him.

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the answer is simple $$$$

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how? donaire paid them? :confused: