Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I, on the other hand, am EXTREMELY pleased the last thing bin Laden saw on this earth were American volunteers who had come in the night to exact some tiny amount of justice for their fellow citizens.
It's also nice to know you you are comfortable harboring mass murderers. Nice ethics.
If you are American, don't take my criticism of that particular aspect of that operation personal.
As far as Osama is concerned, all I (and probably most of us) know about him comes from mainstream media, where he was pictured as the most evil archenemy of humanity. I tend to distrust media. I know politicians feed on such things, they can go on and on about defending the country and do some very stupid things in the name of it.
So I would rather see Osama extracted by the Pakistani, then extradited (after presenting formal evidence), and then having a trial in the US. Now, tell me, does US justice system state that you can kill a suspect on the spot (if you can take him alive), just because he is presumed to be very evil? Maybe you can legally torture him as well, cause he is so evil?
I said I wouldn't give any permission to Americans for that raid, cause why would I deprive myself of the glory of capturing the most wanted man? Same thing happens when FBI and local police compete to make an arrest. Only here it is much more serious. If Pakistani gov weren't asked for permission then they should be very much offended. It's like the US gov doesn't know where US border ends. This doesn't help the image of USA in Arab world and for that reason alone, the Pakistani should have made the arrest.
Finally, I remember a very good scene from the TV series Criminal Minds: a captured terrorist asked FBI agent: "who in your opinion is the biggest enemy of USA?". The FBI agent replied: "Ignorance".
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks",
I'm not calling that all of US military - it's enough if a small percent is this way, and whoever meets them on their bad day is in trouble. The Generation Kill series illustrates what I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
As a national of a country that was sold by FDR to Stalin at Yalta, I very much doubt that.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I, on the other hand, am EXTREMELY pleased the last thing bin Laden saw on this earth were American volunteers who had come in the night to exact some tiny amount of justice for their fellow citizens.
It's also nice to know you you are comfortable harboring mass murderers. Nice ethics.
If you are American, don't take my criticism of that particular aspect of that operation personal.
As far as Osama is concerned, all I (and probably most of us) know about him comes from mainstream media, where he was pictured as the most evil archenemy of humanity. I tend to distrust media. I know politicians feed on such things, they can go on and on about defending the country and do some very stupid things in the name of it.
So I would rather see Osama extracted by the Pakistani, then extradited (after presenting formal evidence), and then having a trial in the US. Now, tell me, does US justice system state that you can kill a suspect on the spot (if you can take him alive), just because he is presumed to be very evil? Maybe you can legally torture him as well, cause he is so evil?
I said I wouldn't give any permission to Americans for that raid, cause why would I deprive myself of the glory of capturing the most wanted man? Same thing happens when FBI and local police compete to make an arrest. Only here it is much more serious. If Pakistani gov weren't asked for permission then they should be very much offended. It's like the US gov doesn't know where US border ends. This doesn't help the image of USA in Arab world and for that reason alone, the Pakistani should have made the arrest.
Finally, I remember a very good scene from the TV series Criminal Minds: a captured terrorist asked FBI agent: "who in your opinion is the biggest enemy of USA?". The FBI agent replied: "Ignorance".
Not personal at all.
1. Distrust the media all you want. Don't distrust what the man himself said or wrote. Read the various letters/manifestos he distributed where he justifies targeting civilians (among other things)
2. The idea the Pakistanis didn't know EXACTLY where he was just isn't credible. He was within a mile of their equivalent of West Point for God's sake. They had YEARS to bring him in and didn't.
3. In the US one can ABSOLUTELY legally kill a suspect if they resist arrest or threaten a cop. And Yes, I'm fine with that.
4. First off the Pakistani's aren't Arabs and secondly this is WAR, not some police situation. Ignoring borders kind of comes with the territory wouldn't you say?
5. Forgive me if I find that in one post you claim to distrust the media and then find wisdom in a TV show more than a little ironic.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
If you are American, don't take my criticism of that particular aspect of that operation personal....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks",
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
As a national of a country that was sold by FDR to Stalin at Yalta, I very much doubt that.
You ask that the discussion not be taken at a personal level, yet, where you are coming from is purely, and exclusively, only from the same that you ask not to be of. Is not hate personal?
It is!, even if yours originate from an echo, from the distant past, like 1945 Yalta. -Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin.... Poland!
Chill man... let Americans, and freedom loving people of this earth enjoy this moment of retribution and glory. Peace.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Think what you want, but I wouldn't call the U.S. Navy Seals or the U.S. military, a bunch of "ignorant rednecks",
I'm not calling that all of US military - it's enough if a small percent is this way, and whoever meets them on their bad day is in trouble. The Generation Kill series illustrates what I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
my guess is you live in a country that owes part of it's freedom to these "ignorant rednecks".
As a national of a country that was sold by FDR to Stalin at Yalta, I very much doubt that.
Generation Kill, thats where you are forming your opinion of the military?...Give me a break. Thats like saying the military is a bunch of loners and dark individuals, just watch Rambo that illustrates what I mean.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
All the news is what affect did water boarding have and what did Pakistan know.
Just my opinion but I won't go into the water boarding, I believe Pakistan knew he was their and I believe Pakistan knew about the raid and may have given info to us. I don't think they can let out that Pakistan knew anything because the Muslims over their might revolt against their government like the rest of the middle east is doing right now.
This was tweeted live and in close proximity of Pakistan military installations, how could we do this with nothing coming from their military at all. Their playing stupid for their own protection. Personally I don't care if they knew or not but I believe they knew about it and helped in some way.
Remember the intelligence said they had no physical proof at all that he was there as they never seen him in person after having 24 hour surveillance for how long.?
It's just an opinion or thoughts, but makes some sense for why Pakistan would do this.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
This is better than living in a country where another country can just fly over your territory and there is nothing that your country can do about it. Not that I am condoning countries from encroaching in other nation's territories but this OBL situation is different. I don't even think you are proud of your country because you don't show it.
And your comment about 'ignorant rednecks' had been addressed by Mars_ax.
Quote:
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
I believe that they are aware of that risk and took it because the goal outweighted the risk. The US had been critized in the past, even by me, for operations involving the death of innocent civilians. I may have even criticized them in this operation if that happened but it DIDN'T.
Quote:
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
This had already been answered by AdamGB. They are in no position to be very angry.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
and to answer your somewhat redundant question... armed Americans were there because they found and wanted to kill the bastard responsible for 9/11.
Quite simple really. I doubt they were all that worried about asking for permission (assuming they didn't have it) offending the Pakistanis by killing OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN. :rolleyes:
it was a small strike team in a couple of helicopters, they probably just flew over the border from afganistan... it's not like it was an entire battalion
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
For a start they reportedly gave permision... but that is irelvant... you are still completely missing the point.
If America didn't have permision then Pakistan would still be in no position to be 'very angry'. OSAMA HAS BEEN LIVING IN PAKISTAN... they are in no position to be angry with anybody... they either harboured him or at worst failed to locate him literally right under their own noses. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Also... what innocent civilians were blown up? Please tell me... what? none... if you keep adding any hypothetical situation you want to your arguments to give them weight then we are going to be here all week
Well said.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
The media is big business. if you watch the news shows and switch from one channel to the next you can see the bias in there reports. I feel you have to double and triple check several sources and even then you have to come to your own conclusion.
I don't know what part of the world your in, could be here in America and if it is you know the Americans want the photo's put out for proof. With that said millions of Americans do not trust the media or government. I believe they got him but I still want to see it.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
As far as Osama is concerned, all I (and probably most of us) know about him comes from mainstream media, where he was pictured as the most evil archenemy of humanity. I tend to distrust media. I know politicians feed on such things, they can go on and on about defending the country and do some very stupid things in the name of it.
Who do you trust then with regards to information about OBL?
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
The media is big business. if you watch the news shows and switch from one channel to the next you can see the bias in there reports. I feel you have to double and triple check several sources and even then you have to come to your own conclusion.
I don't know what part of the world your in, could be here in America and if it is you know the Americans want the photo's put out for proof. With that said millions of Americans do not trust the media or government. I believe they got him but I still want to see it.
If you believe they got him then why would you still want to see it? I don't have any doubt that they got him so I don't need any proof. And I know of quite a number of Americans who don't care about the proof. You can see from the flag next to my name as to where I am.
I am aware that not everything that comes out of the media are true. You have to be selective as to what to believe in. But by saying that you don't trust the media means that you are suspicious of everything they come up with. You don't trust the media in general or just the US media?
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
[QUOTE=InTheNeutralCorner;966411]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
No Contest
Even if they released the video footage of the secret mission, there would still be people saying it was fake. Just like we have never landed on the moon, those same types of people.(Bilbo)
That dead body would be in America right now if I was the President and there would be no doubt, he was the most wanted man in America and you just dump him in the sea for the sake of Islam law. I say bullshit and if indeed they did get him I doubt very much he was dumped in the sea.
I don't trust our ( US ) government or media and could care less about Islams religious law and I'm sure many Americans feel the same.
The dead body might be in America indeed but if it had been dumped in the sea I think most Americans would have no problem with that. What purpose would it serve to let everyone know that the body is in the US?
I don't believe everything the US government says and they do keep secrets but with regards to claiming that they killed OBL, I believe them 100%. I think this may be the reason they took the body with them, to verify the identify. They would not risk lying about this just to have someone come forward with proof to discredit it.
If you don't trust the US media then who do you trust to get the information from?
The media is big business. if you watch the news shows and switch from one channel to the next you can see the bias in there reports. I feel you have to double and triple check several sources and even then you have to come to your own conclusion.
I don't know what part of the world your in, could be here in America and if it is you know the Americans want the photo's put out for proof. With that said millions of Americans do not trust the media or government. I believe they got him but I still want to see it.
If you believe they got him then why would you still want to see it? I don't have any doubt that they got him so I don't need any proof. And I know of quite a number of Americans who don't care about the proof. You can see from the flag next to my name as to where I am.
I am aware that not everything that comes out of the media are true. You have to be selective as to what to believe in. But by saying that you don't trust the media means that you are suspicious of everything they come up with. Who don't you trust, the media in general or just the US media?
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InTheNeutralCorner
Quote:
Originally Posted by
therealremi
I wouldn't like to live in a country where a bunch of ignorant rednecks lead by some Captain America can just fly over and do some killing.
This is better than living in a country where another country can just fly over your territory and there is nothing that your country can do about it. Not that I am condoning countries from encroaching in other nation's territories but this OBL situation is different. I don't even think you are proud of your country because you don't show it.
And your comment about 'ignorant rednecks' had been addressed by Mars_ax.
Quote:
I wonder what would the coverage of that raid be if they mistakenly blew up some innocent civilians.
I believe that they are aware of that risk and took it because the goal outweighted the risk. The US had been critized in the past, even by me, for operations involving the death of innocent civilians. I may have even criticized them in this operation if that happened but it DIDN'T.
Quote:
If I were Pakistani president and Americans did that without my permission (and I would never give them permission) I would get very angry.
This had already been answered by AdamGB. They are in no position to be very angry.
Why is Osama Bin Laden different? Do you have specific evidence that he caused 9-11?
The man could have been captured and brought to trial and yet a bullet was put in his brain. Why should anyone be proud of being from such a trigger happy country with a gun in every home and seemingly in every country at the wink of a President? Who is next....Julian Assange? Am I number 20921 on the list? Where do you draw the line?
America had the opportunity to bring a wanted man to justice. They could have detained him and provided the evidence that he was the mastermind of all these terrorist acts, but instead they defaulted with the good old fashioned bullet to the head. It leaves more questions unanswered than ever. They might as well have let him live in peace where he was.
All this has done is make America look more morally devoid and the Muslim world more angry. It has been another bullet to the head of America if anything. Once again Bin Laden makes a mockery of America and their so called morality and justice.
Re: Sorry not boxing but Bin Laden is dead.
Not to damage any egos here Miles... but I wouldn't flatter yourself to think that you are on any list at all.
Billions of people on the planet and you're a teacher who makes some pretty generic points about the man... not 'Miles X'... :p
If there is a list, it's reserved for the big boys... of which you and I aren't.
