Good woman, you are a lucky man. Give her our regards,the world needs more like her.Quote:
Originally Posted by chinchekked
Good woman, you are a lucky man. Give her our regards,the world needs more like her.Quote:
Originally Posted by chinchekked
Yeah, appreciate that.....my point being that love and proper discipline can conquer whatever your surroundings throw at uQuote:
Originally Posted by AndreGood woman, you are a lucky man. Give her our regards,the world needs more like her.Quote:
Originally Posted by chinchekked
I don't agree with this ridiculous comment at all. I guess then in this case Tony Blair, when prime minister raised his son to be a drunken yob when he had his mad drunken bender as a 16 year old and famously got arrested for being drunk and incapable when passed out in the streets of London.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI disagreed that the family is not to be blamed for this. The mother did not raise her son right. She failed as a parent to instill any sense of morals or responsibility in that little hellraiser. She let him run the streets at any time of the day to cause mayhem and destruction on the livelihoods of innocent people. In short, she was a shitty parent that didn't instill any values in him.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Should she and her daughter be kicked out of the council home? No I wouldn't go that far, but she failed as a parent. Any sense of character, any sense of morality or responsibility is first instilled at home. That's where it starts first. The mother should not be absolved of any responsibility. And where the hell is the kid's father?
Or the Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour must have brought his adopted son up to have no respect when he got jailed for swinging on the cenotaph and throwing a bin at Prince Charle's car?
What happened with the rioting, in the case of these youngsters is that they all got caught up in the excitement of what must have felt like a post apocalyptic, crazy once in a lifetime experience to go wild and smash things up. Was it wrong? Of course it was, but kids act with a group mentality and it's incredibly easy to get swept along in the euphoria of what was happening. Some lad got jailed for two years for nicking a bottle of water from a supermarket that was being looted. Again he shouldn't have nicked it, but people do silly things during crazy events and it wasn't like he was really rioting. Two 18 year old lads, who didn't even take part in riots got 4 years for creating a facebook page entitled ?Lets have a riot in Norwich!'. There was no riot there even. Ridiculous sentence to make a statement and targeting entirely the wrong offenders.
There is nothing more riduclous and irritating than politicians playing demagogues and pandering to irate public opinion in a time of national unrest over issues. Any actions they undertake and policies they rush through are always half baked, ill thought out and have to be dropped later at government expense.
How does throwing people out of a council house because their son rioted help society? Where will this family now live? Are they homeless on the streets or have they been shoved into other emergency housing at taxpayer expense? There have also been cries to stop rioters benefits. Again, how would that help society? Take away a potential criminals income and what is he going to do to pay for food and shelter? Hmm, probably turn to crime I'm guessing...
I generally hate liberals but on prison sentences and punishments they have got it right. Stick a load of 18/20 yr old kids in jail and all you are doing is institutionalizing them to the prison system and turning them into future criminals.
Harsh sentences for first time offenders simply doesn't work. The reoffending rates in the UK for prisoners released is appalling. By contrast Norway has much much more leniant sentences and they have the lowest reoffending rates in the whole of Europe. Ken Clarke was on the right track but once again the moronic public and the ill informed people of Britian moaned and compalined, created an absurd outcry about him condoning rape and forced the plans to be shelved.
We need a leader like Thatcher, who wasn't for turning and didn't kowtow to public clamouring.
I don't give a shit about 1 or 2 incidents of fuck ups that turn out to be great people like Blair or Gilmor. The point being is that parenting or lack of it has a major effect on how the kids turn out. So you are disputing this claim then? And stop blaming it on government policies, the perpetrator and the bad parenting is to be blamed for this. Have you read the article? It's kind of funny that the mother is saying that her kid is at the wrong place and at the wrong time. Well here's a question. What was her little angel running the streets at any time and place to be at the wrong place and wrong time? Why wasn't he at home?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't agree with this ridiculous comment at all. I guess then in this case Tony Blair, when prime minister raised his son to be a drunken yob when he had his mad drunken bender as a 16 year old and famously got arrested for being drunk and incapable when passed out in the streets of London.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI disagreed that the family is not to be blamed for this. The mother did not raise her son right. She failed as a parent to instill any sense of morals or responsibility in that little hellraiser. She let him run the streets at any time of the day to cause mayhem and destruction on the livelihoods of innocent people. In short, she was a shitty parent that didn't instill any values in him.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Should she and her daughter be kicked out of the council home? No I wouldn't go that far, but she failed as a parent. Any sense of character, any sense of morality or responsibility is first instilled at home. That's where it starts first. The mother should not be absolved of any responsibility. And where the hell is the kid's father?
Or the Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour must have brought his adopted son up to have no respect when he got jailed for swinging on the cenotaph and throwing a bin at Prince Charle's car?
What happened with the rioting, in the case of these youngsters is that they all got caught up in the excitement of what must have felt like a post apocalyptic, crazy once in a lifetime experience to go wild and smash things up. Was it wrong? Of course it was, but kids act with a group mentality and it's incredibly easy to get swept along in the euphoria of what was happening. Some lad got jailed for two years for nicking a bottle of water from a supermarket that was being looted. Again he shouldn't have nicked it, but people do silly things during crazy events and it wasn't like he was really rioting. Two 18 year old lads, who didn't even take part in riots got 4 years for creating a facebook page entitled ?Lets have a riot in Norwich!'. There was no riot there even. Ridiculous sentence to make a statement and targeting entirely the wrong offenders.
There is nothing more riduclous and irritating than politicians playing demagogues and pandering to irate public opinion in a time of national unrest over issues. Any actions they undertake and policies they rush through are always half baked, ill thought out and have to be dropped later at government expense.
How does throwing people out of a council house because their son rioted help society? Where will this family now live? Are they homeless on the streets or have they been shoved into other emergency housing at taxpayer expense? There have also been cries to stop rioters benefits. Again, how would that help society? Take away a potential criminals income and what is he going to do to pay for food and shelter? Hmm, probably turn to crime I'm guessing...
I generally hate liberals but on prison sentences and punishments they have got it right. Stick a load of 18/20 yr old kids in jail and all you are doing is institutionalizing them to the prison system and turning them into future criminals.
Harsh sentences for first time offenders simply doesn't work. The reoffending rates in the UK for prisoners released is appalling. By contrast Norway has much much more leniant sentences and they have the lowest reoffending rates in the whole of Europe. Ken Clarke was on the right track but once again the moronic public and the ill informed people of Britian moaned and compalined, created an absurd outcry about him condoning rape and forced the plans to be shelved.
We need a leader like Thatcher, who wasn't for turning and didn't kowtow to public clamouring.
I've always found it funny for people always blaming the government, the school, the bad neighborhood, never the lack of parental guidance and morals instilled inside the home. Always a way to excuse criminal behavior, whatever criminal offense it's always someone's else fault. Never the perpetrator or how they were raised.
Things like parenting and values especially culturally has a big effect on how the child turns out. Those poor ass Chinese and Korean kids and other East Asians living in shitty conditions when immigrating to America but still managed to get accepted by record numbers in America's top universities and go on to be upstanding citizens in white collar professions while moving up the socio-economic ladder. Liberals don't like to include East Asians as minorities because it shits all over their argument that bad schools and bad environment is the result why other groups have a higher rate of crime and higher drop out rates. So how did little May Ling and Lee Ming did it? Well their mom and dad heavily places education first along with their moral values in their kids. So in other words parenting.
Actually, if you read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book Outliers he will explain to you how they did it. It wasn't down to individual parenting at all but much bigger societal and cultural factors. Strangely the main reason is their agriculture being built around rice growing rather than the Westerners and their wheat fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI don't give a shit about 1 or 2 incidents of fuck ups that turn out to be great people like Blair or Gilmor. The point being is that parenting or lack of it has a major effect on how the kids turn out. So you are disputing this claim then? And stop blaming it on government policies, the perpetrator and the bad parenting is to be blamed for this. Have you read the article? It's kind of funny that the mother is saying that her kid is at the wrong place and at the wrong time. Well here's a question. What was her little angel running the streets at any time and place to be at the wrong place and wrong time? Why wasn't he at home?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't agree with this ridiculous comment at all. I guess then in this case Tony Blair, when prime minister raised his son to be a drunken yob when he had his mad drunken bender as a 16 year old and famously got arrested for being drunk and incapable when passed out in the streets of London.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI disagreed that the family is not to be blamed for this. The mother did not raise her son right. She failed as a parent to instill any sense of morals or responsibility in that little hellraiser. She let him run the streets at any time of the day to cause mayhem and destruction on the livelihoods of innocent people. In short, she was a shitty parent that didn't instill any values in him.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Should she and her daughter be kicked out of the council home? No I wouldn't go that far, but she failed as a parent. Any sense of character, any sense of morality or responsibility is first instilled at home. That's where it starts first. The mother should not be absolved of any responsibility. And where the hell is the kid's father?
Or the Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour must have brought his adopted son up to have no respect when he got jailed for swinging on the cenotaph and throwing a bin at Prince Charle's car?
What happened with the rioting, in the case of these youngsters is that they all got caught up in the excitement of what must have felt like a post apocalyptic, crazy once in a lifetime experience to go wild and smash things up. Was it wrong? Of course it was, but kids act with a group mentality and it's incredibly easy to get swept along in the euphoria of what was happening. Some lad got jailed for two years for nicking a bottle of water from a supermarket that was being looted. Again he shouldn't have nicked it, but people do silly things during crazy events and it wasn't like he was really rioting. Two 18 year old lads, who didn't even take part in riots got 4 years for creating a facebook page entitled ?Lets have a riot in Norwich!'. There was no riot there even. Ridiculous sentence to make a statement and targeting entirely the wrong offenders.
There is nothing more riduclous and irritating than politicians playing demagogues and pandering to irate public opinion in a time of national unrest over issues. Any actions they undertake and policies they rush through are always half baked, ill thought out and have to be dropped later at government expense.
How does throwing people out of a council house because their son rioted help society? Where will this family now live? Are they homeless on the streets or have they been shoved into other emergency housing at taxpayer expense? There have also been cries to stop rioters benefits. Again, how would that help society? Take away a potential criminals income and what is he going to do to pay for food and shelter? Hmm, probably turn to crime I'm guessing...
I generally hate liberals but on prison sentences and punishments they have got it right. Stick a load of 18/20 yr old kids in jail and all you are doing is institutionalizing them to the prison system and turning them into future criminals.
Harsh sentences for first time offenders simply doesn't work. The reoffending rates in the UK for prisoners released is appalling. By contrast Norway has much much more leniant sentences and they have the lowest reoffending rates in the whole of Europe. Ken Clarke was on the right track but once again the moronic public and the ill informed people of Britian moaned and compalined, created an absurd outcry about him condoning rape and forced the plans to be shelved.
We need a leader like Thatcher, who wasn't for turning and didn't kowtow to public clamouring.
I've always found it funny for people always blaming the government, the school, the bad neighborhood, never the lack of parental guidance and morals instilled inside the home. Always a way to excuse criminal behavior, whatever criminal offense it's always someone's else fault. Never the perpetrator or how they were raised.
Things like parenting and values especially culturally has a big effect on how the child turns out. Those poor ass Chinese and Korean kids and other East Asians living in shitty conditions when immigrating to America but still managed to get accepted by record numbers in America's top universities and go on to be upstanding citizens in white collar professions while moving up the socio-economic ladder. Liberals don't like to include East Asians as minorities because it shits all over their argument that bad schools and bad environment is the result why other groups have a higher rate of crime and higher drop out rates. So how did little May Ling and Lee Ming did it? Well their mom and dad heavily places education first along with their moral values in their kids. So in other words parenting.
It's a fascinating story actually.
The decline of Christianity and moral values and the subsequent collapse of the traditional family unit is far more responsible than any individual parent.
Remember that parents are just children too, but older, and as much the product of their social backgrounds and enviroments as anyone else.
The history of the actions of the German people during Hitler's rise to power and world war, Stanley Milgram's infamous electric shock experiments and Philip Zombardo's prison experiment all prove that any of us are capable of behaving in devlish ways, often under relatively little pressure beyond the desire for conformity.
Yes rioting is the responsibility of an individual and his or her own actions, but pack mentality and conformity, as CFH points out is a massive, massive influencer and very few people are immune to it.
A lot of these people rioted because they were kids getting a feeling of empowerment and excitment in sharing a dangerous and unique experience togwther. It might not be a popular answer, and David Cameron certainly isn't going to say it, but the truth is that were you or I a young lad in that same enviroment, running with the same crowd and living the same lifes, we might have behaved in exactly the same way.
Humans are very suseptible and weak creatures, easily led astray, all of us included.
Academic studies have put the reason why these East Asian kids to having very low crime rates per their population and managing to get into these universities at high rates in the West are due to their cultural mindset, meaning Confucianism. A cultural mindset that lionizes education and a respect for law and authority. Nothing to do with agriculture or rice growing. And how is this cultural mindset pass down, well through parenting of course. Your buddy Miles who lives in Korea also notices and has even on more than one occasion said that the society there places such a huge emphasis on education and that the country has a very low crime rate. The same also applies to Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, and China. All countries that have a Confucian mindset. It's in the cultural values, and these cultural values are passed down from their parents to their children.
Parenting and cultural values plays a bigger role than any other outside factors. If mob mentality was the sole reason for every riot, then surely the Korean immigrants and other East Asians would also be looting and rioting in record numbers during the Los Angeles riots of 1992? But they didn't. And mind you the Los Angeles area has the largest East Asian population in the West.
The Jews, your favorite group also heavily emphasized education within their households and managed to rise up from the depths of poverty and out of the ghetto at the turn of the 20th century in America by having these cultural values instilled in their children, which was a heavy emphasis on education. So many of their children were in the top universities of America that these universities then implemented legacy admissions so WASP children would get a spot and possibly limiting the numbers of Jews. Hence, why you have so many of them today that have high paying white collar jobs.
Let's be honest, certain groups are able to rise up the socio-economic ladder in western countries and have a low crime rate per their population because of certain values placed inside the home no matter what the socio-economic condition they were in, and these values are passed down and taught from parent to children. Nothing more, nothing less. It all boils down to what happens inside the home.
You are arguing against your point. I agree with you. Cultural values play a huge part, and that is societal, not individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Parents passing on cultural values of their society is what we do in this country too.
Unfortunately Western values pretty much suck these days emphasising individual rights above social responsibility. The rioters are displaying the typical mindset of all Westerners these days, 'let's help ourselves', which applies to both ends of the class spectrum, bankers and MP's stealing to benefit themselves just as the working class rioting youth's have done.
It's a cultural thing, as you yourself say, therefore not the fault of individual parents, it's our modern values that shoulder the burden of blame.
society is made up of individuals.
So is an ant colony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Interesting points on both sides, it made good reading.
Mind you, different societies also place different emphasis on law and order. When I was in Thailand it was very common to see children as young as 11 on a motorcycle with no helmet and 2 friends on the back of the bike. Out driving tonight I saw the same thing here in Korea, but only one friend on the back. In the UK they would be caught before you know it, but out here, and though illegal, kids can get away with it. My other coworker has a bike and kids are always trying to steal it. They once even stole a wheel, I have no idea why.
The UK child riot thing is very unusual though and I have never seen that in Asian countries. Not as far as I am aware anyway. Of course there are kids in gangs and stuff, but nothing like the UK. This is a country where every kid has a paper knife in his pencil case, there are no mass stabbings or anything like that. Actually Korean kids are very aggressive, but I guess heavy schooling kicks them back down. But obviously there is youth crime, but on the whole you don't fear any street corners unlike certain parts of the UK. Many parts of the UK are beyond miserable, hellish violent places seemingly beyond any law or order.
I know it's not a massive point, but my mums fence has been bashed to pieces by kids who play football outside. There are signs saying 'no ball games'. There is a huge park around the corner. And the cops have been called repeatedly (not by my mum, but old people who remember the days of relative civility). It's always 'we will have a word, but there is nothing more we can do'. They talk to the parents, but they don't give a fuck.
When I was a 'youth' I drunkenly called a policeman a wanker and then spent the night in a cell. It taught me a bloody good lesson. I am not the centre of the world and I cannot get away with anything I want. I haven't repeated that experience. We need to fling some of these into cells and I recall there being no playstation in my nightly stopover.
Make prisons harsher and make these people learn to respect others.
Ants work together in their domain or get killed.
'as a mother, I am not responsible for my son's behaviour'
I agree with the first half of that statement.
Do ants ever riot or destroy their own colonies though? ???Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboSo is an ant colony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Just shoot the one's in front in the head and the rest will go home. :rolleyes:
And No ant do not destroy their own colonies. Even with over crowding. They just ship a Queen ant out to start a new colony. About like bees
Ok, that was an ill informed comment based on no knowledge at all. The single biggest killer of ants, is other ants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Ant societies are incredibly similar to human's one. They are always engaged in class wars with red ants fighting black ants. Amazon ants in particular are amazing, even engaging in seiges of other nests. They will literally surround a rival nest and starve them out.
Your comment could not be more wrong in fact. Clearly you have never watched Attenborogh.