Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG heavyweights?

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Master

Ruiz was open for an uppercut from Lennox and big right hands. He was limited and only managed to hold on to the title by fighting poor old fighters and dumb luck.

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He was limited but he was a legit top 3 guy at the time. Botha stunk and was always a joke.

But Ruiz was a man, he called Lewis out and called him a girl for not fighting him, and Lennox chose to fight Kirk Johnson, the guy who Ruiz had just beat, instead. I mean it's not like Ruiz was a Shannon Briggs character trying to talk himself into a fight, he was a legit champ at the time.

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This is exactly why Floyd wont ever get close to being recognised as the best ever. Lewis beat everyone BUT he didn't fight John Ruiz or Chris Byrd - you understand why, it's politics, it's styles, but he swerved them all the same for safer opposition.

As much as I see (so and so) was afraid...but this time: really?

Boxers for sure aren't afraid in the sense I think we fans use it.

And Lennox Lewis wouldn't give a gosh darn about a Ruiz or a Byrd. The dude (also) took on Vitali in days notice when Kirk Johnson punked out.

This is the same Lennox that said Now that a (PRIME) Roy who beat Ruiz is a HW champ- if he wants some he can get some...He said it on HBO.

Not a weight drained RJJ that Tarver fought. The RJJ that is uh...:-\ quicker than Byrd, HAD more power than Byrd, freak-azz reflexes and what did RJJ say on HBO in response to that?

"He aint got no stones in my backyard" then back peddled his butt back to the LHW division.

Byrd was all wrong for Lewis..in what sense? In the sense he wouldn't helped ticket sells , sure...I can accept that...

Mentioning Roy as a heavyweight, hahahahahahahaha

If he keeps winning i think we might have to put him in the top ten been champ fro ever i mean shit. Louis comp was shit but had a lot of title defenses i mean what else can i say really. Wald boring and all but he has had some good fights thing is being champ for 10 years is a hard thing to do at hw.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

This is exactly why Floyd wont ever get close to being recognised as the best ever. Lewis beat everyone BUT he didn't fight John Ruiz or Chris Byrd - you understand why, it's politics, it's styles, but he swerved them all the same for safer opposition.

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Yeah but there is no champion in the history of boxing who hasn't - or wouldn't - take a smaller money fight with a tough fighter over a larger money fight with a slightly lesser opponent. Why do you think all these guys have managers and handers? Do you think these businessmen who control the fighters sit around and say "hmmm, who out there can we fight that will bring us mediocre money and pose the biggest risk to beating the shit out of our meal ticket?" Come on, lets be real here. If you can make 20 million (or whatever Lennox made) fighting 36 year old washed up Tyson, you're going to do it.

Some people on here talk like Floyd is the first boxer in the history of the sport to calculate risk vs reward. I wish these people would read about the history of boxing so they knew what they were talking about. It's idealistic, naive child shit that really boggles my mind.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Byrd was all wrong for Lewis..in what sense? In the sense he wouldn't helped ticket sells , sure...I can accept that...

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Bro, if you can't see the danger that Chris Byrd presented to Lewis, you need to watch more prime Chris Byrd.

Yes if Wlad beats Holmes record then that will elevate him into the top 10 and and Louis record may even get top 5 if they are with the top fighters like Wilder/Stiv, Fury, Jennings and co.

Maybe its not fair or just assbackwards..but while the skill is obvious, for the most part the standard usual names in a random 10...Holmes, Tyson, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Louis, Foreman etc intersect, they collide. Sometimes in 2 different eras. For all the trinkets Wlads names just do not click. Top 15 for me

The only reason this is a big issue for some is for one the early losses kinda hurt him pretty much Sanders but shit this is heavyweight division shit happens. The bigger problem is we have something that has never happened in hw history the top guys are brothers so kinda fucks it that way.

I think you have to take a fighter at his prime, the highest level he achieved in his career. For most guys, they peak in their 20s and start going downhill in their 30s. Wlad peaked in his late 20s and 30s so he kind of went the opposite way. I think it's more impressive that Wlad managed to battle his way back into relevancy, because he was considered a complete bust after the Brewster loss. Boxing history shows that most guys who take those brutal upset losses early in their career never recover and fade into irrelevancy.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

i remember years ago thinking that wlad was highly overrated. he was so one dimensional yet, steward helped him become effective in that one dimension. his biggest downfall for me though is not just that he got KO'd by lesser opponents (because i could get past that), but its that in my mind, he became dominant when the rest of the decent HWs retired. i regard the HW division of the last 10 years very low. honestly, i dont put anybody on wlads list of victims above a C level fighter (and thats being generous to some). the best fighters that he has faced are byrd and haye. i think that he had a perfect style to beat byrd so that was more of a style makes fights. haye was a decent win but i feel like haye was scared and could have made it more competitive if he would have tried.

either way, his lack of good opposition is to his detriment because he has shown me that he has gotten better over the years, but hasnt shown me that he has truly fixed his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. because of his accomplishments though, i have to put him in the top 15.

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In saying all that about Wlad, what would you say about Joe Louis' competition? Or Rocky Marciano's?

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louis' competition is underrated. everybody brings up the bum of the month but nobody understands they called it that because he was black and it made his accomplishments seem less than what they were. you can imagine if it were a white man doing it, they definitely wouldnt be calling his fights the bum of the month.

with that said, louis fought some solid competition and fought bigger fighters too. max baer and schmelling were both very good fighters. baer was known as extremely dangerous and louis destroyed him. louis did lose to schmelling very early in his career but came back to easily win. billy conn was a great fighter although smaller but still very good. he fought both charles and walcott at the end of his career. charles is widely known as the best LHW ever and walcott was a solid HW who he KO'd in their second fight. there are a few other alright names on his resume. and again, you can say some of these fighters were small compared to todays HWs but he fought max baer, buddy baer, primo carnera, and abe simon who wereall around the same size as todays HWs. and he KO'd them all.

marciano doesnt have a great resume. most of his competition was old when he fought them. he is a great fighter but i always have trouble ranking him because of the reason i have for ranking wlad. the competition just isnt there and marciano showed glaring weaknesses about being able to be outboxed. he was just durable and never gave up.

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Just durable and never gave up, you say that like its nothing. It's too bad Shavers didn't a little more of that in him or a lot of other guys who came close.
Yeah, Marciano was a piece of shit, all he did was keep fighting until the other guy wouldn't, couldn't or the time ran out.