What was that ? I don't remember wladimir being diagnosed with anything? Although I could well be wrong, I remember he said he was exhausted after the 4th round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
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What was that ? I don't remember wladimir being diagnosed with anything? Although I could well be wrong, I remember he said he was exhausted after the 4th round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Wladimir Klitschko is physically stronger than Lennox and Vitali.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Chin wise he is about equal to Lennox.
Yeah sure, you are right, he is never involved in a dog fight like Vits or Lenny sometimes do, that's true. He ties his man up instead!
Personally, so long as he doesn't get DQ'd for it, it DOES NOT MATTER how he handles himself on the inside. So long as the end result is that he beats up his opponents.
I think it makes Wladimir less exciting to watch than Lennox or Vitali, same as everyone, but it's atleast as effective.
And don't give me that cheating thing either, only 1 fight can be called into question as ethically wrong and that's his Povetkin debacle. But you have to agree that in between all the wrestling here he still dominantly pulverised Alexander!
He was noted by ring doctors with dilated pupils and other symptoms and immediately rushed to hospital via ambulance and diagnosed with hyperglycaemia on the verge of a diabetic coma. He reported feeling sick before the bout and despite the fight with Brewster being little more than a better sparring session for him, he visibly became weaker and weaker every round.Quote:
Originally Posted by palmerqWhat was that ? I don't remember wladimir being diagnosed with anything? Although I could well be wrong, I remember he said he was exhausted after the 4th round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Urine samples were taken and what happened after that was a real mystery. The samples went "missing" from the laboratory. Wladimir and Judd launched an investigation but nothing could be made of it without a sample. This was important as Wladimir CLAIMED he might have been poisoned. Some people believe it was a steroid overdose but that doesn't explain Wladimir pushing the issue.
One fact remains, whether from natural causes or otherwise is the hyperglycaemia. The REAL ending to Wladimir vs Brewster is seen in the second fight.
as for quality opponents, although it really depends what you mean by quality :S I would say the following have some good quality, in my uneducated opinion, I do watch a good few heavyweight fights though..
I'd say, povetkin and haye are at the top, povetkin had an excellent amateur career(olympics,euro and world champ) and has dispatched some competent contenders too, byrd, chambers, polish guy wawryk(i hate spelling there names :S),charr, chagaev and takam, none of those fellows are elite class but povetkin beat them all and usual in style too, I do think if povetkin was an american or from blighty(don't want to sound like the fellow who claims fighters are only liked because they are black, as that is bollocks) but I think he would be close to being a superstar. just based on who he has beaten and how. It is hard to say how good haye actually is as a heavyweight due to his cherry picking of opponents but I think he certainly has a lot of quality and was very quick in his fight with wladimir.
I would say chagaev has quality too, another decorated amateur who defeated ruiz and valuev(closely in both), chris byrd was no mug either, pulev had acumulated a nice record too, Ibragimov had a nice amateur career and beat shanon briggs(who some say should get a shot at wlad now :S) and a past it holyfield but holyfield did show afterwards that he had something left when he had his close decision loss to valuev.
so errr i forgot what i was typing.. I would say the quality opponents wlad fought are
povetkin
haye
chagaev
ibragimov
byrd
pulev
thompson
chambers
brock
sanders and brewster too,even though he lost I like those guys a lot
and possibly sam peter.
I agree, I think those are all quality opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by palmerq
I also concur I think Haye and Povetkin are his best wins, along with Pulev.
We will have to agree to disagree as everytime you say I cant see....doesnt stand up toQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
facts either. I have no problem knowing what you can't see. Its your perspective. Not the world's.
Wladimir DID have to dig down deep to beat Sam Peter and that was a crossroads fight at the time with Wlad seemingly on his way down and out of the division and Sam Peter on his way to the top.
I think people EASILY forget how everyone even Vitali wanted Wladimir to retire after the Brewster fight....and look at him now, each title defense since then has been a statement of defiance from Wlad. Really what other fighter has had the kind of ups and downs Wlad has had? Being the heir apparent to being the laughing stock of the division to being the 3rd longest reigning heavyweight champion of All-Time and still counting....who else has done that?
Nationality could also be at play. If Wlad was from a small town in USA, he'd be on several boxes of wheeties, doing Sprint commercials headlining all the talk shows.
But he is not American. Few fighters are adored by us. Unless he had the blitz style of Pacman or JCC...
@Max Power Stop making up stories Brewster was finished the second time they fought.
Lennox would force the fight with Wlad because he panics when anyone gets in close. Wlad would not take the punches his brother did. Just imagine that uppercut landing on Wlads chin.
Why do you post so much rubbish?
That's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeWe will have to agree to disagree as everytime you say I cant see....doesnt stand up toQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
facts either. I have no problem knowing what you can't see. Its your perspective. Not the world's.
The only thing I will give Lennox is that he has been a better finisher of good opponents. Only Ray Austin got blown out by defense-oriented Wladimir (huggy bear for lack of better definition lol) whereas LEnnox blew out the 4 mentioned. Previous offense-oriented Wladimir was a good finisher too but he took little chances after Sanders to ensure victory and prevent any further upsets but at the expense of far less excitement.
The same attempts to crowd please from Lennox however are the things that also make him more vulnerable than Wladimir. If he chose to take such chances against Wladimir himself, I don't think Lennox would like the consequences so much.
I would expect Lennox vs Wladimir to be a very cautious and technical affair. Of extremely high level though.
All I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
So you have to make up stories to back up your own claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerAll I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I also think it would be rightfully placed in the chess thread. Wlad for sure is extremely intelligent in the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerThat's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeWe will have to agree to disagree as everytime you say I cant see....doesnt stand up toQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI remember Lewis vs Grant was billed as 2BIG;D Lewis exposed that boy as 2fraudulent, so I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I also remember Rock Newman having Riddick Bowe throw the belt in the garbage can. As much as I like Riddick-- that was a hoe-ass move. I credit Lennox for that- How does Bowe not want to fight that man who beat him in the olympics?
Tyson would beat Bruce Seldon because he payed Lennox Lewis $ 4 million dollars September 1996 to 'step aside' correct? That is the buster of all hoe azz moves. especially considering that phantom punch Seldon got hit with....two knockdowns.
Akinwande was so scurred of Lennox he held him like they were slow dragging at prom night- till he got DQ'd.
And just like Wlad, Lennox got stopped by nobodies- McCall (Tyson's sparring partner) and Rahman who Maskaev beat his butt outta the ring. Jim Lampley: Rahman is LAYING RIGHT NEXT TO ME! RIGHT NEXT TO ME!
What separates Lennox from Wlad appears simple to me: Lennox has been in dog fights- and won.
Tyson decisioned Ruddock- Lewis destroyed him in 2. Bruno IMO was to Lennox what Brewster was to Wlad- both Lennox & Wlad were raw and didnt have years of Manny Steward's mentoring.
Mercer to Lewis IMO could be Sanders & Wlad. Not style wise, but digging deep down.
Lennox dug down deep, Wlad just fell down.
Golota had just schooled Bowe, but broke down mentally & DQ'd Going into that fight Golota's rep IMO was more solid than say an Ibrigamov or Povetkin for Wlad...Lennox destroyed that boy in one.
Briggs - strong fighter but suspect skills came out swingin for the fences and Lennox dismantled Briggs and landed Haye-friggin makers on Briggs.
Based on those fights and the ones not made, give me the opinion that Wlad wouldn't have hung with Lennox. Not a fact, its all speculation, as you said we will never know, so we just argue like we think we know how it woulda went down and I say Lennox beats Wlad's Muth#@%^! ass! ;D
What is fact: Wlad has ruled for a long time like Holmes and I really dont have too many good names to add to Larry Holmes either..
Lewis never fought an opponent like Sanders, he ducked ALL southpaws. And Sanders combination of qualities, dangerous in the early rounds was EXACTLY the juice necessary to catch a lazy Lewis off guard and KO him as well. I would say not the same stylistically, but this fight is analogous to Lewis's loss to McCall!
The Brewster fight was illegitimate in my book because Wladimir was diagnosed with, PROVEN to have a life-threatening condition immediately post-bout. That is why the big money never materialised for Brewster because everybody KNEW. Of course it was good fuel for American haters to still try to pass off to this very day as negative stigma. The Brewster fight was NOTHING like the Mercer battle for Lennox, which was a competitive fight for LEwis. Wladimir single sidedly bashed Brewsters brains out until he succumbed to illness right at the very end. Wladimir would NEVER be troubled by a boxer like Ray MErcer ever.
Shannon Briggs BREACHED Lennox and nearly got the drop on him! Again, I can't see Wladimir having any problems with Shannon.
I can't see Wladimir letting MAvrovic run around for 12 rounds.
I can't see Wladimir losing rounds to Holyfield.
The only guys LEnnox truly wasted, Botha, Ruddock, Grant and Golota- These guys are nothing more than humdrum opponents for Wladimir too.
To say that Wladimir could not hang with LEnnox doesn't stand up to facts because many lesser fighters did and many lesser fighters pushed LEnnox.
facts either. I have no problem knowing what you can't see. Its your perspective. Not the world's.
The only thing I will give Lennox is that he has been a better finisher of good opponents. Only Ray Austin got blown out by defense-oriented Wladimir (huggy bear for lack of better definition lol) whereas LEnnox blew out the 4 mentioned. Previous offense-oriented Wladimir was a good finisher too but he took little chances after Sanders to ensure victory and prevent any further upsets but at the expense of far less excitement.
The same attempts to crowd please from Lennox however are the things that also make him more vulnerable than Wladimir. If he chose to take such chances against Wladimir himself, I don't think Lennox would like the consequences so much.
I would expect Lennox vs Wladimir to be a very cautious and technical affair. Of extremely high level though.
So we are clear, I am a huge fan of both brothers, but id prefer to argue my heart out on who Wlad can/will fight, but only speculate on mythical matchups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSo you have to make up stories to back up your own claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerAll I can say to that, as you already know my position on basically everything by now, is that you are "slightly" overrating Lewis and Vitali here and "MASSIVELY" underrating Wladimir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Why not?
After all.... he uncovered the massive scam where different fighters collaborated to exaggerate Ernie Shavers' punching power in order to pump up their own weak resumes. Ali's record would be worthless had he not schemed with other fighters to claim that Shavers was the hardest they'd ever been punched.
There's gotta be some sort of prize for that type of incisive analysis.
Either that or he just pulls outrageous claims out of his ass to discredit the previous HW generations and overly defend Wlad. But hey........ what do I know?
;)
Lennox would absolutely destroy Wlad , there is no argument there,he is not in same league.