Israel has suspended ties with 12 UN Security Council countries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMgYb9-3tI

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Nameless

Israel have done so much harm, it's just un-fuckin-believable. They are violating international treatees for 50 years now, no wonder that Palestinians can't stand them now. If they would have acted decently, things would be different, but they made sure that everything religious over here would be über-radizalized by their rash of violence and scorn. It's a sad state of affair.

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You can't do THIS...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht2B9KaDAEw
...and not expect retaliation.


You hide behind civilians, then you're going to get civilians killed because you're putting them in the crossfire.


Palestinians are pawns in the game, they are only there to start shit with Israel.



Let me ask you, if you had to choose: would you want to live of the Palestinian side or the Israeli side? Which would be best for you?

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Ahhhh..... The Master of Deflection is at it again on another issue.


Yes, the Palestinians, when they fight, fight dirty. So in some obscure way, shape of form.... that somehow translates into the COMPLETELY UNRELATED theory that the Israelis are totally blameless in the everlasting conflict over the settlements, and that the U.S. is perfectly justified in sticking their goddamn nose where it doesn't belong, defending this little rabid chihuahua of a country and pissing off most of the Arab world.

I know there is nastiness on each side but I will forever take the side of Israel over Palestine.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Yes, the Palestinians, when they fight, fight dirty. So in some obscure way, shape of form.... that somehow translates into the COMPLETELY UNRELATED theory that the Israelis are totally blameless in the everlasting conflict over the settlements, and that the U.S. is perfectly justified in sticking their goddamn nose where it doesn't belong, defending this little rabid chihuahua of a country and pissing off most of the Arab world.

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When the Israelis offer, when the UN offer Palestinians deals who says "No!"??? Who says "Never!"???

How about you OPINE on that

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Yes, the Palestinians, when they fight, fight dirty. So in some obscure way, shape of form.... that somehow translates into the COMPLETELY UNRELATED theory that the Israelis are totally blameless in the everlasting conflict over the settlements, and that the U.S. is perfectly justified in sticking their goddamn nose where it doesn't belong, defending this little rabid chihuahua of a country and pissing off most of the Arab world.

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When the Israelis offer, when the UN offer Palestinians deals who says "No!"??? Who says "Never!"???

How about you OPINE on that

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What are the Israeli offers, Lyle? Let us continue uncontrolled expansions on these already controversial settlements, and we'll let you live?
Damn those unreasonable Palestinians!

Arafat could have had everything he wanted. He balked because they were Jews and it's been down hill since

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

What are the Israeli offers, Lyle? Let us continue uncontrolled expansions on these already controversial settlements, and we'll let you live?
Damn those unreasonable Palestinians!

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3 times they have rejected statehood, 3 times!

#1. In 2008, after extensive talks, then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and presented a comprehensive peace plan. Olmert's plan would have annexed the major Israeli settlements to Israel and in return given equivalent Israeli territory to the Palestinians, and would have divided Jerusalem.

Numerous settlements including Ofra, Elon Moreh, Beit El and Kiryat Arba would have been evacuated, and Hebron would have been abandoned. Tens of thousands of settlers would have been uprooted. Olmert even says preliminary agreement had been reached with Abbas on refugees and the Palestinian claim to a "right of return."

Olmert recounted much of this in an interview with Greg Sheridan in the Australian newspaper:

From the end of 2006 until the end of 2008 I think I met with Abu Mazen more often than any Israeli leader has ever met any Arab leader. I met him more than 35 times. They were intense, serious negotiations.

On the 16th of September, 2008, I presented him (Abbas) with a comprehensive plan. It was based on the following principles.

One, there would be a territorial solution to the conflict on the basis of the 1967 borders with minor modifications on both sides. Israel will claim part of the West Bank where there have been demographic changes over the last 40 years...

And four, there were security issues. [Olmert says he showed Abbas a map, which embodied all these plans. Abbas wanted to take the map away. Olmert agreed, so long as they both signed the map. It was, from Olmert's point of view, a final offer, not a basis for future negotiation. But Abbas could not commit. Instead, he said he would come with experts the next day.]

He (Abbas) promised me the next day his adviser would come. But the next day Saeb Erekat rang my adviser and said we forgot we are going to Amman today, let's make it next week. I never saw him again. (Nov. 28, 2009)

And this is not just a self-serving claim by Olmert – Abbas, in an interview with Jackson Diehl of the Washington Post, confirmed the outlines of the Olmert offer and that he turned it down:

In our meeting Wednesday, Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank -- though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan. He confirmed that Olmert "accepted the principle" of the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees -- something no previous Israeli prime minister had done -- and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. In all, Olmert's peace offer was more generous to the Palestinians than either that of Bush or Bill Clinton; it's almost impossible to imagine Obama, or any Israeli government, going further.

Abbas turned it down. "The gaps were wide," he said. (May 29, 2009)


97%.....the Palestinians turned up their noses at 97% of the West bank....your OPINION on that TitoFan?!?!


#2. In the summer of 2000 US President Bill Clinton hosted intense peace talks at Camp David between Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and Israeli leader Ehud Barak, culminating in a comprehensive peace plan known as the Clinton Parameters, which was similar to the later Olmert Plan, though not quite as extensive.
Despite the vast concessions the plan required of Israel, Prime Minister Barak accepted President Clinton's proposal, while Arafat refused, returned home, and launched a new terror campaign against Israeli civilians (the Second Intifada).

Despite the violence, Prime Minister Barak continued to negotiate to the end of his term, culminating in an Israeli proposal at Taba which extended the Clinton proposal. Barak offered the Palestinians all of Gaza and most of the West Bank, no Israeli control over the border with Jordan or the adjacent Jordan Valley, a small Israeli annexation around three settlement blocs balanced by an equivalent area of Israeli territory that would have been ceded to the Palestinians. As chief US negotiator Ambassador Dennis Ross put it in a FoxNews interview:

... the Palestinians would have in the West Bank an area that was contiguous. Those who say there were cantons, completely untrue. It was contiguous... And to connect Gaza with the West Bank, there would have been an elevated highway, an elevated railroad, to ensure that there would be not just safe passage for the Palestinians, but free passage. (Fox News, April 21, 2002)

According to Ambassador Ross, Palestinian negotiators working for Arafat wanted him to accept the Clinton Parameters, but he refused. In response to Brit Hume’s question as to why Arafat turned these deals down, Ross said:

Because fundamentally I do not believe he can end the conflict. We had one critical clause in this agreement, and that clause was, this is the end of the conflict.

Arafat's whole life has been governed by struggle and a cause. Everything he has done as leader of the Palestinians is to always leave his options open, never close a door. He was being asked here, you've got to close the door. For him to end the conflict is to end himself.


#3. UN Resolution 181, the Partition Resolution, passed in November 1947, called for the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in the land which at that point was controlled by the British-run Palestine Mandate. All the Arab countries opposed the resolution, voted against it, and promised to go to war to prevent its implementation. Representing the Palestinians, the Arab Higher Committee also opposed the plan and threatened war, while the Jewish Agency, representing the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine Mandate, supported the plan.

The Arabs and the Palestinians were true to their word and did launch a war against the Jews of Palestine, violating both Resolution 181 and the UN Charter. Much to the surprise of the Arab side, the Jews were able to survive the initial onslaughts and eventually win the war.

The fundamental fact remains that had the Arabs and the Palestinians accepted the Partition Resolution and not violated the UN Charter by attacking Israel, there would be a 63-year-old Palestinian state today next to Israel, and there would not have been a single Palestinian refugee.

Just as today, it seems that even in 1948 the Arab side was more concerned with opposing and attacking the Jewish state than with creating a Palestinian state.



Come on Tito, you FEEL like the Israelis are wrong, so tell us how it is buddy, tell us how the Palestinians were going to be hoodwinked by the those nasty Jews! And how the PLO and Arafat and Abaas were all 100% correct in turning up their noses at such silly offers, 97% of the West Bank.....would there still be an Israel? NO DEAL!!!!





Again, I'm SOOOOO sorry to use facts to help substantiate my views on this issue, I know it's a difficult thing to combat

Well, if this is a battle of wordage, you certain have won.
No doubt you have Googled the shit out of the subject, and have regurgitated a lot of stuff verbatim.

You also can't resist pouring on that typical condescending, sarcastic "charm" you're so well known for.

I'm by no means the "Middle East expert" you apparently are, but I'll begin my post by expressing the ultimate sacrilege that every conflict has two sides to it. Yes... I realize you probably disagree with that also. You obviously are privy to all sorts of information that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that all of history's Arab-Israeli conflict is the entire fault of the Arabs. It's like you were there personally. Surprised you haven't been called by the Department of State for a position offering.

Let's address your lengthy tirade regarding how ungrateful the Palestinians are at having "rejected" statehood offers 3 times.

Since you mention the UN Partition Resolution back in 1947, let's revisit that, shall we? Because, if I may... facts, as you like to call them... should be taken within the context of the situation. I hope that didn't anger you in any way, since again we all know how all-knowing you are regarding all issues. At the time of the resolution, Arabs both owned the vast majority of the land in Palestine, and made up a large majority of the population. Yet the UN Resolution imposed on them called for more than half of the land in Palestine to be given to the Jews. In addition to that, some Jewish leaders viewed this partitioning as a stepping stone toward the eventual acquisition of all of Palestine, by force if necessary. So... if the above can be taken as accurate (I wasn't there.... so maybe you can tell me how it really went down), then I would FEEL (oops... there's that word you hate) that the Palestinians would be more than justified to not only reject said resolution, but also to pretty much hate the Jews' guts, would they not?

All other instances of "offers" to the Arabs you so carefully mention in detail must also be looked at through a clear, uncolored pair of glasses.
That is, of course, if we care about objectivity, which I realize is something you're not too fond of.


But you know what? None of the above matters. The REAL POINT here, which seems to have escaped you, is that we're talking about a region that is thousands of miles away from the U.S., and your neighborhood in particular. This is a decades-old conflict between two countries, with history that goes way back before you or I were even born. The REAL POINT is that the U.S. continues its tiresome practice of sticking its goddamn nose where it doesn't belong, and then frets and wonders why some Arabs harbor such hatred toward them. Some of these Arabs are not above a little terrorism, so guess who gets blown up buildings and planes once in awhile.

Your Southern "charm" and expert use of irony and sarcasm is pretty effective sometimes. You have a tendency to lay it on pretty thick. Any differing opinions are met with ridicule and condescension. So I hope I haven't ruffled your feathers too much by disagreeing with you once again.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Well, if this is a battle of wordage, you certain have won.
No doubt you have Googled the shit out of the subject, and have regurgitated a lot of stuff verbatim.

You also can't resist pouring on that typical condescending, sarcastic "charm" you're so well known for.

I'm by no means the "Middle East expert" you apparently are, but I'll begin my post by expressing the ultimate sacrilege that every conflict has two sides to it. Yes... I realize you probably disagree with that also. You obviously are privy to all sorts of information that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that all of history's Arab-Israeli conflict is the entire fault of the Arabs. It's like you were there personally. Surprised you haven't been called by the Department of State for a position offering.

Let's address your lengthy tirade regarding how ungrateful the Palestinians are at having "rejected" statehood offers 3 times.

Since you mention the UN Partition Resolution back in 1947, let's revisit that, shall we? Because, if I may... facts, as you like to call them... should be taken within the context of the situation. I hope that didn't anger you in any way, since again we all know how all-knowing you are regarding all issues. At the time of the resolution, Arabs both owned the vast majority of the land in Palestine, and made up a large majority of the population. Yet the UN Resolution imposed on them called for more than half of the land in Palestine to be given to the Jews. In addition to that, some Jewish leaders viewed this partitioning as a stepping stone toward the eventual acquisition of all of Palestine, by force if necessary. So... if the above can be taken as accurate (I wasn't there.... so maybe you can tell me how it really went down), then I would FEEL (oops... there's that word you hate) that the Palestinians would be more than justified to not only reject said resolution, but also to pretty much hate the Jews' guts, would they not?

All other instances of "offers" to the Arabs you so carefully mention in detail must also be looked at through a clear, uncolored pair of glasses.
That is, of course, if we care about objectivity, which I realize is something you're not too fond of.


But you know what? None of the above matters. The REAL POINT here, which seems to have escaped you, is that we're talking about a region that is thousands of miles away from the U.S., and your neighborhood in particular. This is a decades-old conflict between two countries, with history that goes way back before you or I were even born. The REAL POINT is that the U.S. continues its tiresome practice of sticking its goddamn nose where it doesn't belong, and then frets and wonders why some Arabs harbor such hatred toward them. Some of these Arabs are not above a little terrorism, so guess who gets blown up buildings and planes once in awhile.

Your Southern "charm" and expert use of irony and sarcasm is pretty effective sometimes. You have a tendency to lay it on pretty thick. Any differing opinions are met with ridicule and condescension. So I hope I haven't ruffled your feathers too much by disagreeing with you once again.

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Ah the good old UN Partition Resolution, do you know what the leader of the Palestinian Mandate said of this? Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were Annihilated".

So again, which group is actively LOOKING for ways to bring about Peace? It seems Israel is always ready to play ball as it were, but Palestine is all too happy to fuck things up for Israel even at the expense of fucking things up for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyBjvKC7MLk

Israel was backing out of Gaza in 2005, American Jewish donors paid $14 million for the greenhouses which brought Israel great wealth and DONATED them to Palestine......the Palestinians gladly accepted the donation and the next day decided to loot and destroy those very same greenhouses because well shit, I have no fucking clue what kind of spite you'd have to have to do something so monumentally fucking stupid as that, but hey, there you have it, the Palestinians ain't bright but they are 100% dedicated to being against Israel again even if it hurts themselves.


So nah, I don't feel much sympathy for the Palestinians....take $14 million worth of greenhouses which could GREATLY improve the shithole that is occupied by all those Palestinians and just toss it to the curb, fucking BRILLIANT.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Ah the good old UN Partition Resolution, do you know what the leader of the Palestinian Mandate said of this? Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were Annihilated".

So again, which group is actively LOOKING for ways to bring about Peace? It seems Israel is always ready to play ball as it were, but Palestine is all too happy to fuck things up for Israel even at the expense of fucking things up for themselves.

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Again... and you may have missed it on my previous post... the same can be said of some of the high-ranking Zionist leaders.
Just flip it over and it sounds the same, but from a different angle.

We can go round and round all day long.

The point still remains... why is the U.S. so actively involved in this struggle which from the very beginning has been none of their goddamn business... and by doing so... why is the U.S. so surprised when the Arab world expresses anger over this meddling?

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Again... and you may have missed it on my previous post... the same can be said of some of the high-ranking Zionist leaders.
Just flip it over and it sounds the same, but from a different angle.

We can go round and round all day long.

The point still remains... why is the U.S. so actively involved in this struggle which from the very beginning has been none of their goddamn business... and by doing so... why is the U.S. so surprised when the Arab world expresses anger over this meddling?

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:rolleyes:

Indeed, round and round


Why is the US involved? WW2 for one, Israel is an ALLY (one of a very few in this neck of the woods) and they don't fund terrorism against us (one of a very few in this neck of the woods).


So the Pallies hate Israel eh? Israel is the bane of their existence? Why do the Palestinians not remember 'Black September'? Where is their hatred for Jordan? Why no hate for the Lebanese who massacred Shia Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila? Nah man, only hate for 1 nation, 1 people in the hearts of the Pallies and that's ISRAEL! Palestinians can do no wrong, Israelis can do no right.


Israel COULD (if they were a war like nation) wipe the floor with the entirety of the Middle East and they've done so in the past. They don't....is this not commendable given their situation? They're literally surrounded by people who want to not only end their country but end their fucking religion and Israel ATTEMPTS to hand out olive branches instead of starting shit....but ok TitoFan whatever you say man.

You have to understand one thing. In America people who watch Fox jews I mean Fox news Believe that it is coming right out the mouth of Jesus. You can show them the truth and the facts. That means nothing to them. So this is a hard sell over here because they don't understand it. They love Israel without even knowing why.

Lyle, you are defending apartheid, segregation, occupation. Americans sometimes have the most warped views when it comes to Israel. It is poor judgment like your support for the Iraq war. You are wrong on this issue.

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Originally Posted by mrbig1

You have to understand one thing. In America people who watch Fox jews I mean Fox news Believe that it is coming right out the mouth of Jesus. You can show them the truth and the facts. That means nothing to them. So this is a hard sell over here because they don't understand it. They love Israel without even knowing why.

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Exactly.

Which is why many otherwise intelligent people have such a one-way, slanted view of this issue. No one ever believes they are the victims of propaganda. "Who... me? Never." But if you sit down and examine it rationally, conflicts like this are rarely, if ever, one-sided. When you think about it, the media really IS the devil, brainwashing people's minds by presenting news exactly the way they want to present it. It's like you said... people love Israel AND hate Arabs without even knowing why. It's beyond astounding.

How dare @Gandalf talk shit about American Jews. It was the British Jews who did the more damage.